jensenracing77

Here are rules of the class. Our 62 Jetfire is original paint and original interior but the turbo was locked up when we got it. We got the turbo rebuilt and rebuilt the engine and transmission. The engine is aluminum and not painted when new so the only thing repainted is the valve covers and oil pan. Will this push this car out of class 11?


UNRESTORED/ORIGINAL CLASS. This Class includes vehicles that are at least 25 years old and have retained original features as manufactured such as paint, upholstery, engine compartment, etc., essentially as delivered. Allowable exceptions are replacement of maintenance items such as tires, brakes, exhaust system, hoses and belts. If ANY paint work, re-chroming or upholstery changes are made to the vehicle, the vehicle would be classified in the proper Stock/Restored Class. This vehicle IS NOT JUDGED for points. It will be scrutinized for authenticity as noted on the “Certification Form” that will be made available to the owner to complete upon arrival at the show. A “Preservation of Original Features” plaque will be presented to the owner at the Awards Banquet. This “one time” award may be displayed at future National Meets. ANY RESTORATION will forfeit this entry to Class 18 and the vehicle will be re-classed in the correct class at the time of registration.

Hairy Olds

Post pic of said car and by you description I would think you would be good to go.

joe_padavano

Rebuilding the engine and trans is hardly "replacement of maintenance items". Sorry, but I suspect the car is not eligible.

jensenracing77

Here are some pictures. I guess I should call Mike Pruitt about it. He would know for sure. I bet he is exhausted about now so I will wait for another month or so to ask him.

One problem with the jetfire is that there is not a single one out there with a working turbo system that has not been rebuilt. I would hate to see a Jetfire not eligable because they had to fix the turbo. Obviously mine is more than just a Turbo rebuild but the body and interior is as made from the factory.

oldcutlass

Wouldn't that fall under maintenance and repair?

Stefano

100% original other than maintenance items is just way too strict.

Charlie Jones

Why not just enter it in the restored class .
It looks pretty enough to win a trophy there.

jensenracing77

I got a first at the 2013 nationals. If I can't get it in class 11 I will just take it for show. I am not into the points thing much.

Tedd Thompson

I don't think you will qualify, they are that strict. At the Reno Nationals they rejected a totally stock unrestored 55 except it had different incorrect carpet.Probably replaced 40 years ago by who knows who. Looked correct to me but not to the judges. It's their game and you gotta play by their rules.

If it were mine I would put it in the restored class and enjoy the experience. Unless it is very rough(doesn't look like it) and your class is unusually good you will at least take a third and probably score a second. The fun is just being there. Just my experience....Tedd

joe_padavano

Maintenance and repair is intended to be replacement of normal wear items: tires, shocks, brakes, tune up parts. It is not intended to be wholesale rebuild of major components. Where do you draw the line? Sorry, rebuilding the engine and trans is not "unrestored". Why stop there? What about "rebuilding" the interior? Repainting a fender? The whole point of the unrestored class is to document cars that are UNTOUCHED from factory assembly. If the engine and trans have been out, that's not untouched. Sorry.

joe_padavano

Then what exactly is your definition of "unrestored"? Again, the whole point of unrestored is to document cars as they came out of the factory. Obviously if the car has been driven at all, normal wear items will eventually need to be replaced. The rules pretty clearly spell out what can be changed and still qualify for unrestored. If you had a a 50 year old car that you bought new and preserved through careful maintenance and care such that it was functional but unrestored, would you put it in the same class as a car with a rebuilt trans and engine? Sorry, but I think people don't understand the concept of and intention of an unrestored class.

Koda

The problem is you brought it up here and now everyone knows and someone will tip them off. Should've not done that, and played dumb.

jensenracing77

I wouldn't try to hide that the engine was rebuilt. Most people that know me in the Oldsmobile world knows the engine was rebuilt anyway.

Koda

I know you wouldn't.

anthonyP

The Jetfire looks great, especially considering the exterior and interior is original. Seems another class for cars just having parts of the drivetrain restored is needed. Having a completely restored car being judged against one such as Eric's seems to be imbalanced, and does not take into account, or give credit, to the originality of the non-drivetrain parts of such cars.

jstrits

The head judge said to me they were working om this class. I was asked why I didn't have any of my cars judged this year. One I decided not to enter the ring and the other two are suido survivors. Meaning about 60-70% paint and have had exhaust changed etc. Its getting harder to find cars without something done and a small touch om the paint after 40-60 years. I think they will have se leniency in the future. They told me my cars were the type they are having a discussion about. Erics 62 looks stunning from here and is he supposed to tow and push it around to be in a certain class? I feel maintenance would include whatever makes the thing tick and stay driving. Thats just me.

jensenracing77

I am on both sides here. This class is not judged for points so could they just certify that "this car is certified to have correct paint and interior only" this would exclude anything else not mentioned. This would give other people at least some reference how the interior should be as factory installed.

copper128

What if the engine had been replaced with a service unit when the car was less than a year old? How about at five years? Ten years? What if you didn't know? Do those still disqualify a car?

joe_padavano

"Original" is exactly as the car came off the line at the factory, period. Anything else is not original. It would be unusual if a dealership replacement engine were installed EXACTLY as the factory had done it (how many people really reinstall those stupid exhaust manifold bolt locks?). A survivor should not have had major components replaced, period. As soon as you start down that slippery slope, you talk yourself into a body-off resto. Do you draw the line at the engine and trans? How about the rear axle? How about a broken seat frame? How about a new wire harness after some got smoked?

I'm frankly surprised people want to argue this. The whole point of a survivor class is to 1) recognize people who have preserved these cars exactly as built by the factory, and 2) documenting exactly how the cars were assembled. How do you know that a dealer mechanic EXACTLY duplicated the factory workmanship? Do you really think the dealership mechanics had an assembly manual open when they worked on the car? It's a disservice to the community to loosen the standards for this class.

Rallye469

THAT is a sweet looking little car.
Gorgeous lines...

Any chance for us to see the engine?
I wish you had just slapped the original painted items back on it.

-Pete

jensenracing77

I do agree with you Joe and maybe I just don't understand the goal of the class. Is the class to preserve the information or is it for bragging rights that "I have a factory perfect survivor". I just hate to see a car tossed aside when it has the factory interior, paint and body lines over the fact the engine was rebuilt. I completly understand that my engine compartment should NOT be considered as factory installed because it is not. If the goal of the class is to preserve the information then why consider the entire car as void when only the engine compartment has been tampered with? If it is for bragging rights then no, My car should not be there and I don't want to be there.

Our Jetfire has a wealth of information for even Cutlass owners because it has the exact same interior.

jensenracing77

Thanks,
The first two are how it was when we got it. The last one is as it is now. I didn't freshen up much other than what touches the engine. I did have to replace the hood insulation. The original was falling apart and getting sucked into the air cleaner.

The original turbo was replaced by the dealer in 1963 so that may have already been enough to kick the car out of the class?

joe_padavano

I get that, but the problem is, where do you draw the line? Say that there's a car in the survivor/unrestored class, and it's there because it's an outstanding example of original paint and interior, but other parts have been repaired and the details aren't completely correct. Without the owner there to point this out, how is an observer to know what parts of the car are untouched and which are not?

I certainly encourage you to document the untouched parts of your car and to share that, but again, loosening the restrictions on the unrestored class is a slippery slope.

BlackGold

I don't think it's slippery at all. Loosen the restrictions (yes, there must still be limits) but require the owner to fully document everything that is not original and display that document for all to see.

As far as I'm concerned, the whole point of the unrestored class is to educate everyone. If you make the rules too restrictive, you exclude a heck of a lot of cars.

Case in point: My '87 442 is completely unrestored -- except that I replaced the headliner. Show me an '80s G-body that hasn't had the headliner replaced and I'll show you someone who's driving his car with the headliner sagging on top of his head. According to this year's rules, my car is not eligible for the unrestored class. Yet there's tons of stuff under the hood and elsewhere that I'm sure people restoring other '87s would love to see. Too bad the OCA doesn't care.

Yes, I'm a little bitter about this. I don't give a rip about judging and points, but I'd love to let others see the car. But no, we have our rules !!! I'd be happy to list every belt, hose, shock, and tire that's not original on the car. Including the headliner.

jensenracing77

And that could be part of the..... This “one time” award may be displayed at future National Meets. Again, I see both sides of it. While building my W-30 I would have been more than happy to see a preserved interior on one car and a preserved engine bay on another.

67KS442ORIG

Love your car, no matter what the label is.
I also feel your passion here.

The interior on my 67 442 has something in common.
To preserve the vinyl seats, my choice was to not sit in it, or remove the skins and replace with exact copy. https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ear-seats.html
Pieces would crack and fall apart.

The original interior covers were simply removed, measured for patterns, and set aside. They are available for show and tell, or re-installation. But as the car sits today, it would not pass such strict judgement.

Another bucket item is the exhaust manifolds. They were falling apart. Hot exhaust gas was going to affect other under hood parts. Just more Original parts in another box. Nobody really cares except for me.

So, I still get to enjoy the car instead of just watching it waste away to meet a Class definition.

Again, I really enjoy your car in its entire condition and the story behind it.

71rocket

Wow, tough class.

Stefano

At the shows I'm involved and participate in we use a percentage or degree of originality. While I want World Peace too, 100% untouched Muscle cars are not very prevalent.

At MCACN we showcase everything from as found Barn & Garage finds to Bench Mark status cars and virtually none that we have shown have been 100% original!

Even the preservation class at Pebble Beach doesn't only feature 100% original cars, or there would be very few to have on display.

"Vintage Certification is again proud and excited to be a part of the MCACN experience.

Vintage Certification™ is a judging program whose sole purpose is to recognize, provide status, provenance, and promote un-restored (survivor) vehicles. We believe it is the only program that focuses on documenting and benchmarking these cars. Our core certification team consists of Brett Merryman, Chris White, John Karvonen, Marty Burke, Roger Gibson, Steve Shauger and other marque specialists based on make and model. Each core team member possesses over 30 years experience as restorers, collectors, historians and judges in the hobby. Typically we spend 3hrs examining in detail every segment of your car including on a lift. The MCACN show http://www.mcacn.com is the perfect venue to have your vehicle certified. You will be among and exclusive group of enthusiast who participate in this new exciting event.

We understand not every original car is 100% untouched, and we offer four levels of certification, based on the originality of the Vehicle.
Vintage Certifications™ levels are divided into four divisions:
Vintage Legend - Cars that are 80%-90% unrestored in all reference areas.
Vintage Legacy - Cars that are minimally 50% unrestored, in three out of five reference areas.
Vintage Reference - Cars that are unrestored in at least one Vintage Reference Area.
Vintage Icon - Cars that have original-unrestored components disbursed throughout.

Reference Areas: Certification consists of two areas of consideration, Originality and Preservation. Reference areas are as follows:

• Engine Compartment Area
• Exterior Body
• Interior Body
• Underbody
• Trunk

This is Vintage Certification™ 17th year and we continuing to expand and educate enthusiast on factory standards."

D. Yaros

My understanding is the former, not the latter. This is not about bragging rights.

jensenracing77

I had assumed this to be the case. I just feel that when there is a large amount of factory assembled information it should not be void because of an engine and transmission rebuild.

Not many people are ever going to be worried about a 62 like mine for a perfect restoration and need the information. It will not bother me the slightest bit if I can not enter the car in this class.

Stefano

The judging venue which established "Survivor" standards doesn't require 100% original for a car to be included.

http://www.corvetteblogger.com/2014/...dging-program/

BlackGold

It's worth noting that the OCA rules for the Unrestored Class used to be more lenient. The present rule has been in place for maybe only two years? I'm wondering what was broke about the class that they felt they had to fix it. And again, I think the key here isn't how strict the rules should be but that all restoration or replaced parts should be documented for people to see.

jensenracing77

I think it will be best if I just contact Mike and get it from the primary source. I will let him rest for a while after the national event before I do.

pogo69

If Joe P is correct that it needs to be unrestored from factoru assembly the thats what i would expect to see i dont care how difficult that is to uphold but im sure that ther are many cars untoched and thats what makes that class ultra special

Texas442

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I have a quick question somewhat related. I have a 1971 442 convertible original everything, but the prior owner replaced the convertible top. My question is does the convertible top falls under upholstery above? Thanks.

kitfoxdave

Joe, I have to confess.... I installed those stupid manifold bolt locks.... I am sorry... ;-)

jensenracing77

Not sure. I figure it is interior and exterior both?

jensenracing77

I do on restorations but not on driver cars.

1970cs

We had a 66-67 Toronado dumped on us after it was booted from the unrestored class. Engine and radiator had been re-painted along with new hood insulation. Now class 14A

Still confused we were judging 14B and 14C which were 1971-78/1979-1992 Toronado.

I was thinking the same thing they changed the rules from what it used to be no more than two panels that we re-painted and a few other items were allowed.

Just like this year on the judging says we have to have all tire tools which means we have to remove all supporting docs./spirit items and lift the carpet to make sure jacking supplies are all there.

Pat
OCA master judge

BlackGold

Therein lies the question: Is the intent of the class to identify (reward?) ultra-special cars? Or is the intent to attract cars which can serve as a reference for everyone?

The two are not compatible. There are not enough ultra-special cars out there to serve as references.