illumined

Or at least you would if these guys have their way.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/20/a...s-car-repairs/

radioburningchrome

IIRC, Rolls Royce cars had factory hood locks on them in the 1920's.

rjohnson442

This is aimed at the ECU's in todays cars not the weekend warrior doing his oil change in the driveway. I say they have a good case in by reprogramming the ECU you are "hacking" the system they created. Pretty much everything else on the vehicle is common knowledge and they have no copyright laws for example you aren't going to get a summons to court for changing the tire on the side of the road or replacing brake pads. If anything you are going to see the "third party" reprogrammer and scanners disappear from the market and be left with the factory. Now try and ask a dealership to raise your redline or shift points and see the answer ya get with that.

Fun71

Ah, this is another attempt by the auto manufacturers to force people to use the dealerships for auto work.

Many years ago the auto manufacturers tried to keep the OBDII information proprietary so that only the dealerships could work on vehicles, but the courts said this would create a monopoly and they shut it down. Now it's back with the auto makers using a different approach.



I would love to see this happen. I can't stand all the electronics in cars these days - and I'm an Electronic Engineer who works in a high-tech electronics environment.

aussie oldsmobile 98

its real simple ... don't buy there cars ,and tell them ... im sure they will change there tune then

cherokeepeople

i would love to get it back to the days you open the hood and you can see the spark plugs and get to them without donating a pint of blood .

illumined

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the OBD system a regulatory mandate in the first place?

Seeing as to how it's an industry association the only way to do that is to never buy a new car, though since all Oldsmobiles are used anyway it won't be such a big deal for us.

It's kind of like when the RIAA went on a lawsuit spree a decade ago with horror stories of them filing suits against grandpa's who don't have computers for downloading music etc. People would rail against it.....yet still buy big label music without considering that they were supporting the vary organization they were against.

m371961

I think they have a point when it comes to modifying their computer program. Forcing the buyer to go to them for diagnoses and repair is another matter. I don't like the amount of computer control they have and are going to have in the future.

madmax442

I'd hack into the ECM with a 10lb sledge!

76olds

Hey no kidding, Can't see the plugs on both our 09 G8'S. Have to pull the intake to get to the plugs.

Oldracerjones

Like it was said, don't buy the crap they sell unless it is on our terms. They will change or go out of business.

oldcutlass

They have been trying to do this for years, ain't happening.

Indy_68_S

Interesting article...with some very good points in the comments (BJ Meyer & synacks)...and this whole thing is just lobbyist talking...not legislators.

You can legally 'hack' anything you actually own. The issue would be if the automakers start licensing ECU code like computer app mfgrs do now. If you buy a copy of Microsoft Word, you don't really own it. You're just granted permission, with lots of conditions, to use it. One of those conditions is dis-assembly/reverse engineering is prohibited. (Read the whole User Agreement that you have to click 'I agree' on when installing most software for details)

Automakers could have a User Agreement with similar terms that prohibits modification of existing ECU/CPU code. That would problematic for a few reasons;

1. If you completely erased the ECU, leaving nothing but the hardware, and then put your own code on it, you'd be fine.

2. How to handle a used ECU ? The original 'agree-er' no longer exists. Mfgrs would probably have a clause that in absence of a doc'd owner, possession reverts to the mfgr. (Goodbye used ECUs.)

3. Enforcement ?

So, they've opted to use public law to prohibit modification; under the guise of 'public safety'.

I do see some validity in that argument for brake/steering systems, but the end result would be no different than someone decades ago who fiddled with and (unintentionally) degraded these systems.

I agree (with the article) that the primary focus of this is revenue stream protection.

Even if this is enacted (& I think its years away...if ever), the solution is simple; don't buy a car with these prohibitions if you want to mod it. And maybe someone will start a new 'open source' car company!

jaunty75

This concern people are expressing about getting at spark plugs in late model cars seems misplaced. Back in the day, yes, spark plugs were replaced every year or 12,000 miles, and easy access to them was required. But nowadays it's typical for the recommended replacement interval to be 60,000 miles. That's what it is on my '13 Nissan Frontier. On a 2005 Ford Freestyle I had, it was 100,000 miles. But even at 60,000 miles, you're going to replace them, what, maybe twice in the time you own the car? Unless you keep it to 180,000 miles, and most people don't keep a car that long. But whatever the case, the fact that the spark plugs might difficult to get at (or get at all of them) isn't exactly an overwhelming burden.

rustyroger

No you don't. however those were the days of chauffeurs being employed to drive and maintain the vehicle, often they were sent on a factory driver and mechanics course.
But in British common law if you own something you can do what you like with it, providing you don't break any other laws by doing so.

Roger.

pogo69

You actually need to be more concerned about this...most residental cities/towns have an ordinance that prohibits you from doing any mechanucal repairs on your street or in your driveway...it must be done in your garage

MDchanic

Define "most."

Citation?

- Eric

pogo69

"Most" was the matter of factly term the zoning official used when he and the building official came to my house as was doing a brake job in the driveway...a neighbor from hell called the city on me and it was a 100 dollar a day fine if i wanted to give them a hard time about it

MDchanic

Interesting, as I have never heard of anything like this before, and I have lived in NY, Vermont, and Maine, and have actually read the town statutes where I have lived for the past decade or so, and there is no such ordinance here.

Do you usually trust what government officials say when they are threatening you?

- Eric

pogo69

When I maintain 3 permits yearly with the city under threat of some reason to not get repermitted damn right i believe them you cant beat city hall...this ordinance is part of zoning the reason being is they dont want used car repair business poping up in a resident area and they dont care that it is your own car for that matter, it is not an enforced ordinance because towns will not enforce something unless there is a compaint...thats how it be here

MDchanic

If that's how it is where you are then that's how it is, but I was questioning the "most."

I am very skeptical that the majority of jurisdictions in the US prohibit working on your car on your own property (I know that NYC prohibits working on your car in the public streets, and even that is a rule that is "more honoured in the breach than the observance," but that is, of course, a different thing).

I would be interested in whether anyone else here has ever heard of such a thing (and, before anyone says anything, I am NOT talking about rules promulgated by those insufferable "residents' associations," which are not laws, and which places, in my humble opinion, you would have to be insane to be live in).

- Eric

pogo69

Eric i dont know what to say in my 1/2 converstation with the city officials i was left with 3 answers .... 1 the city has an ordinance for everything even if it not clear2 if a compaint is made and there is a zoning issue the city can act against you 3 i did my share of mfing these guys and told them i lived in many other places also and was pretty much told this zoning ordinance is not unusual....again the city will ignore situations even a blighted building unless complaints are made...i agree it would be interesting if others had this issue

m371961

Where I used to live you could not have an untagged vehicle in your yard, even behind a privacy fence. It had to be in a garage. If someone complained you had 30 days to remove. Where I am now there is no zoning, no building permits except for septic systems. Of course some peoples places look like a junkyard, but I don't care. I am not surprised that some areas may have a law against working on a car in your yard.

coppercutlass

The city i live in does not allow for car repairs even in the garage. Now there is a clause there that say's under certain circumstances its allowable. I solve that by working with my garage door closed.

jaunty75

I have a feeling that laws as pogo69 brings up are more common than people think and are probably just not well enforced.

I was checking the city codes section on the website for the city where I live, and I found the two following ordinances (underlining is mine):


Sec. 18-37. - Prohibited.

No person shall park, store, leave or permit the parking, storing, or leaving of any motor vehicle of any kind which is in an abandoned or wrecked or dismantled or inoperative or partially dismantled condition, whether attended or not, upon any private or public property within the city for a period of time in excess of 72 hours. The presence of an abandoned or wrecked or dismantled or inoperative or partially dismantled vehicle or parts thereof (except such parts that have been reconstructed or converted for practical use) on public property or private property is declared a public nuisance which may be abated in accordance with this article. This section shall not apply to:

(1) Any vehicle within an enclosed area and out of public view on private property or to any vehicle held in connection with a business enterprise, lawfully licensed by the city and properly operated in the appropriate business zone, pursuant to the zoning laws of the city; or

(2) Any person who has obtained a permit for restoration of a motor vehicle pursuant to section 18-38


Sec. 18-38. - Permits for restoration of motor vehicles.

Any person, upon payment of a fee of $15.00, may obtain a permit for the restoration of a motor vehicle from the police department. The permit shall specify the type of vehicle to be restored, the location of the vehicle and the time requested for restoration, provided that in no event shall the time allowed for restoration exceed 18 months. No more than one permit per location may be issued and outstanding at any one time.


Section 18-37 would seem to indicate that, if I have a vehicle in my driveway, it had better run and move under its own power. No leaving a vehicle in the driveway for an extended period of time if it doesn't run. Item #1 under 18-37 says you're OK if your inoperative vehicle is hidden from view, so keeping it and working on it in your garage is OK.

Section 18-38 is a surprise to me. Who knew that you needed a permit to restore a vehicle, that you have only 18 months to finish the job, and that you can restore only one vehicle at a time? I certainly didn't!


I haven't found an ordinance that specifically prohibits doing minor maintenance to your car in the driveway, but I can see someone claiming that putting your car in the driveway and up on jack stands so you can work on your brakes would certainly LOOK like you have an inoperable vehicle. Of course, 72 hours has to elapse before you're in violation of the ordinance, and I suppose most people finish minor maintenance within three days. Otherwise, it's not minor!


As I said, I imagine these kinds of ordinances are more common than people realize. They're probably only enforced if someone complains.

jaunty75

I'm not, either. There's something to be said for property values, pleasant views out your kitchen window, and not having it look like you live near a junkyard. Eyesores can be as much a public nuisance as loud noises can.

pogo69

These alone are good reasons for residentual zoning and in affluent areas this is the reason for such laws in my area it is to curb any part time business of car repairs unless in your garage....this goes along with the 6 or maybe 7 inch height your grass can be 100.00 dollar a day fine also and also no commercial or combination business or work vehicle can be on your property unless its outside service company doing the work...so the plumber truck you see down the street as the guys part time business is also 100 dollar a day fine IF a complaint is made

The work truck or car must be in the garage along with the car your doing repairs on just not on the street or driveway

pogo69

Sorry to shift this op off topic a bit but here is another ordinance i am familiar with and its a police issue rather than an ordinance but im pretty sure most all towns have something similar...if you park on the street the PD can require you to move the vehicle every 48 hours, the first call out they determine if the vehicle is registered and the second call out if you give them a hard time they inform you of the time limit if your a problem to them

Octania

You are damn lucky they still let the unlicensed idiots among us [raises hand] have TOOLS.

Lansing prohibits repairs outside your garage. And parking two vehicles aside unless you have a double car garage. And parking on your grass for a while. And...


Here is a little something I wrote early 2014
seems eerily appropriate now

Enjoy!

Looking forward to comments

.================================================

The following bit of fiction composed by CBWitt by modifying an actual story about a different subject, 25JAN2014:

"The year is 2028.
Internal combustion engines of any sort have been outlawed by the Central Scrutinizers of the World Government. Despite the dangers to themselves, the population in general, and the planet, a few outlaws still manage to find or make the necessary fuels and machines and disregard the law of the land. Of course these illicit machines must be maintained and repaired, and the violators are always looking for ways to make more powerful versions, and places to “test operate” their criminal contraptions. Such fabrication and repair activities involve the use of extremely dangerous materials, posing a threat to all those involved… and their neighbors.

Crime Stoppers
Is there an auto repair facility in your neighborhood?
November 21st, 2028 by Cpl Eduardo Pecoso

With illicit use and repairs of automobiles on the rise in the area, after a long time of plaguing Indiana and the nation, the dangers surrounding gasoline engine use need to be recognized and addressed. This is the first in a series of educational presentations we will share with you about engine use. Many people may be living next door to an exceedingly dangerous automobile facility and not even know it!

AUTOMOBILE REPAIR SHOP
With the newest methods of fuel & engine production scaling back from larger operations like the ones pictured here, into smaller 'personal use' quantity type of shop operations, detection of these prohibited shops is made even more difficult. The newest fabrication methods, often referred to as "one bay" methods, can be produced in facilities as small as a one car garage, and can even be easily transported, for the purposes of evading law enforcement, in shipping containers or semi truck trailers. As such, an engine shop discovery often leaves many neighbors and local residents commenting they had no idea that this incredibly hazardous activity was so very close to their precious homes and children. This is typical of many engine facility discoveries.

The reason for this is simple. Internal combustion engines are relatively easy to produce and repair with minimal investment in materials and tools, which are also a crime to possess. Major scale manufacturing operations are now rare in the area. You may be surprised to learn that most engine fabrication and repair facilities are now, in fact, on a very small scale.

Some of the main reasons for this are due to strict Indiana laws on tool sales and tracking, the relative ease of manufacture, and the highly addictive nature of this activity. Its high street price entices many users to attempt to make their own repairs for personal use, and on a smaller, secondary level, provide support to other criminal engine users.

As a result, automobile repair facilities now turn up in houses, barns, apartments, trailers, campers, cabins, backyard sheds and motel rooms – even the backs of pickup trucks. The equipment for an automobile repair facility can be as small as to fit in a duffel bag, a cardboard box or the trunk of a car. Building or repairing in small facilities, such as backyard sheds, is on the rise as the preferred method of construction or renovation, thanks in part to restrictive sales of tools, parts, oils, gasoline and similar petroleum products.

AUTOMOBILE FABRICATION / REPAIR SHOP
Many people may be living next door to an automobile repair facility and not know it. Some of the signs that there is an engine repair facility in operation are obvious and easy to spot, other signs are not so conspicuous.

In fact, you may have observed such indicators and not realized it. IC engines are, in fact, very simple to produce or repair, with simple tools and small machines. A user can go to retail stores and easily purchase the vast majority of the components necessary to manufacture or repair these illicit machines. Items such as steel tubing, batteries, red paint, pool acid, and aluminum can be utilized to fabricate some of the necessary components.

Precursor fuel components such as benzene can be extracted from common, over-the-counter cleaning chemicals or solvents. A clandestine shop operator can utilize relatively common items such as mason jars, coffee cups, hot plates, pressure cookers, pillowcases, plastic tubing, gas cans, etc., to substitute for sophisticated repair equipment.

Unlike electric motors, spring powered vehicles, or other types of dangerous machinery, it does not take a college-educated machinist to produce an engine. In fact, less than 10 percent of those suspects arrested for the manufacture of engines or fuels are trained machinists or chemists, which may be one reason we see so many fires, explosions, and injuries involving clandestine shops.

Here are some of the things to watch for:
Unusual strong odors (like urine, ether, diesel fuel, acetone or other chemicals).
Sheds or garages with windows blacked out.
Renters who pay their landlords in cash- most auto parts dealers conduct business exclusively in cash, as it is harder to trace, and the RFI chips in the currency can be defeated by simply enclosing the bills in metal foil.
Large amounts of traffic - people coming and going at unusual hours. There may be little traffic during the day and large amounts at night.
Often times, there will be a crowd gathered to participate and observe, and loud and boisterous activity might ensue as the “happiness” of the criminal attendees reaches a fervor pitch. Cheering, hooting, and hollering are frequently observed, often accompanied by hand waving. Sometimes there is even music and dancing, often involving underage children. Raucous laughter can often be heard as tales of past exploits and incidents of escaping capture by the authorities are shared.
Sounds and smells of internal combustion engines- the poisonous exhaust fumes have a di-“stink”-tive aroma.
Excessive trash, including large quantities of: antifreeze containers, fuel cans, red stained coffee filters, carb cleaner cans, and duct tape.
Unusual amounts of clear glass containers being brought into the home.
Windows blacked out or covered by aluminum foil, plywood, sheets, blankets, etc.
Secretive / protective area surrounding the residence (like video cameras, alarm systems, guard dogs, reinforced doors, electrified fencing).
Overhead doors on the structure, larger than needed for persons to pass through.
Persons exiting the structure to smoke, drink, eat, etc.
Frequent trips to the scrap metal dealer to buy and sell in secret
Persons seen in the area with soiled, grease-stained hands.
Washroom facilities, often having a toilet as well, used for disposing of the toxic waste.
Little traffic during the day, but high traffic at late hours; including vehicles arriving and staying for abnormally short or long periods of time.
Little or no mail, furniture, visible trash and no newspaper delivery.
Machinery or parts of old machines lying about the property
Unusual quantities of clear glass containers being brought into the home.
Unusual repetition of the same statements, for no apparent reason.
Obviously the presence of any ONE of these items is not a definitive indicator of the presence of an automobile repair facility. However, combinations of these indicators or large quantities of these items may be a sign of a prohibited facility.

[to be continued]

Octania

[cont'd]

ENGINE REPAIR SHOPS ARE VERY DANGEROUS!!!

THE FABRICATION or REPAIR FACILITY
If you encounter a known or suspected Automobile Repair Facility, contact law enforcement and stay away! The threats posed by clandestine shops are not limited to fire, explosion, poison gas, drug & alcohol use, and boobies stuck in booby traps; the chemical contamination of the hazardous waste contained in these shops also poses a serious danger to our nation's environment. Heavy metal parts can fall on a person’s toes or fingers, causing injuries. Of course, the use of the machinery is exceedingly dangerous not only to the driver/ user of the machine, but to all persons in the vicinity.

Each pound of illicit machinery generated in a clandestine shop can result in as much as five pounds of heavy metal and toxic waste, which the operators routinely dump on the land, or into our nation's streams, rivers, and sewage systems to cover up the evidence of their nefarious operations. In addition, surreptitious shop operators routinely show a blatant disregard for the health and safety of others as evidenced by the number of children who have been present at these shop sites. Sometimes, children are even allowed to operate machines fitted with internal combustion engines.

Because of the possibility of contained or uncontained explosions, and direct contact with toxic fumes and hazardous chemicals, law enforcement officers who raid concealed repair shops are now required to take special training in hazardous materials (HAZMAT) handling. Locally, the Indiana State Police has a specially trained Automobile Repair Facility cleanup team who will assist with safe and proper handling of the materials where shops are uncovered.

The highly toxic and flammable chemicals involved make these rudimentary repair and fabrication facilities ticking time-bombs which require highly specialized and expensive training to safely dismantle and clean. The size of shop does not matter when it comes to the danger level involved in a clandestine shop raid. In fact, the smaller shops are usually more dangerous than the larger operations because the technicians are generally less experienced mechanics and machinists, who often have little regard for the safety issues that arise when dealing with heavy metals, oxides of iron and aluminum, or explosive and poisonous chemicals. Even plastics can be used in the fabrication of these illicit machines, causing large volumes of toxic smoke in the event of a crash or fire when the inevitable problem crops up during the festivities involving the use, fabrication, or repair of internal combustion engines. However, the size of a clandestine repair shop can be a significant factor in the total costs associated with the hazardous material cleanup. Larger facilities usually have larger quantities of heavy or toxic materials, and therefore more significant disposal charges. Furthermore, it has been found frequently that producers of fuels and engines also possess large numbers of firearms, adding to the dangerous situation for residents and for police.

Landlords and neighbors suspecting Automobile Repair Facility activity should pay attention and look for the presence of the following items, which could indicate the existence of an automobile repair facility:

Alcohol
Cold Packs, or residue/used cold pack wrappers in quantity
Ether
Benzene
Toluene/Paint Thinner
Freon
Acetone & Automatic Transmission Fluid mixture
Chloroform
Camp Stove Fuel/Coleman Fuel
Starting Fluid (“Start, You Bastard” in a spray can, for example)
Anhydrous Ammonia (propane tanks with altered valves or tubes)
"Heet" fuel treatment
Acetylene and Oxygen in highly pressurized tubes
White Gasoline
Black Gasoline
Hispanic Gasoline
Asian Gasoline
Nitrous Oxide
Propane
Red Phosphorous [often disguised as “safety equipement” - road flares]
Lead-acid or lithium batteries
Lye (Red Devil Lye)
Cast iron
Paint stripper
Paint thinner
Transmission fluid
Tubing
Drano
Muriatic/Hydrochloric Acid
Battery Acid/Sulfuric Acid
Sheet metal
Electrical wire
Epsom Salts
Bandages or Band-Aids®
Sodium Metal
Sodium Chloride
Wooden Matches
Lighters
Wood, such as sections of tree limbs, often used as heat for the shops
Propane Cylinders
Hot Plates
Coffee and hot chocolate
Energy Booster cables
Rock Salt or similar de-icing chemicals
Food, water, and air- these hazardous items are found at ALL secret shops.

If you suspect that an Automobile Repair Facility may be present, or if you find the above listed "precursor" items, do NOT confront the shop residents/area. The criminals should not be approached without the proper government training and support, to ensure that the appropriate incriminating materials are “found” at the site, so that a conviction can be obtained and this scourge eliminated. All good citizens must be vigilant for the signs of this type of activity, and report the criminals at once. The safety of all our valued citizens, and the health of our planet, depends on eliminating all non-governmental use of the internal combustion engine.

Contact:
South Bendover Police ARF Activity Hotline at 505-235-9046,
Crime Stoppers, at 800-288-STOP
Indiana State Police Internal Combustion Hotline at 1-800-443-4576 or if you see manufacture or use of IC engines in progress, contact 911. "

MDchanic

Wow. I had no idea.

The wife and I are planning to move in the next year or so - guess I need to check the local laws before buying a house...

... How can they possibly make it illegal to park on your own lawn?

- Eric

... and I'll avoid South Bendover at all costs.

m371961

I can see the problems in a neighborhood. I can see where some people have a problem with it. One of my neighbors currently has 4 vehicles outside on blocks he is parting out. But he is about 200 yards away. His yard is a mess. But I really don't care. The wife does, but not me. But he doesn't care what I do either, including my backyard firing range. I couldn't live in a neighbor hood with those laws or agreements anymore and found a way out.

m371961

MD you better check it out before you go. Or get enough property that the neighbors are far enough away.

pogo69

Sorry no parking on your grass it has to be paved or gravel...also it cant be grass turned to dirt

MDchanic

Wow.

I have disabled cars in the driveway, stack the cars in the driveway, park on the grass, and have at least one major appliance on the side of the house.

I also need to paint the house, and I mow the lawn when I damn well please.

Guess I'm not a "good neighbor."

- Eric

Vandy

I actually had the cops roll up on me for changing the oil in my jeep in my garage. The door was about half open and a neighbor saw me. I was in shock. That's when I learned I had a neighborhood rules against working on cars in the neighborhood, city laws that you couldn't park in the street unless you drove it at least once a week and in the driveway, you needed to drive it daily. It's crazy how the world is getting

As far as the OP, I've read this a few places. I can see it happening. It's already been enforced to a point in the diesel world. The epa got involved in tuners rewriting codes to delete epa equipment on the trucks. Soon the prius owners of the world will get their way. Soon our old cars will all be illegal also

cherokeepeople

the town i moved from 5 yrs ago had the no parking on the grass ordinance.the funny thing is that is why i moved.i had a single car garage from the garage to the street was 60ft.on the side of the garage was gravel about 20 ft out towards the street.this is where i parked my 5th wheel and truck in front of it,a 97 freightliner fl60.this took up about 55 of that 60 ft so it wasn't too far from the street.well one spring before i got the camper out i had my kids car for sale setting in the same spot as the truck would set and the neighbor turned me in for a car setting on the grass,well it was grass but 3 days after the camper got parked there it was gravel.sooo i said time for the for sale sign and we were outta there.now im in the country 2 miles from town and could care less.

aussie oldsmobile 98

I can not believe all the b/s rules that you have in the states......I guess I will stick to livin in down town sunny Australia with my 24mtr x 21mtr shed "garage/barn" ...at least I can work on /paint/pull apart any car I wish to with anybody bustin my ***........

aussie oldsmobile 98

mate if my "good neighbour" got the police on me for changing the oil im MY garage .... I start being a good neighbour by getting you lawn mower out on a sunday morning , fill it up with gas , chain it to a outside pole /structure on you backyard... start it up leave it a full revs ....and then u go out for the morning.....im sure your neighbour will soon get it!


ps ..I cant belive that the police would come out for this type of enforce ment , haven't they got betta things todo???? I think the place is startin to go nuts ...unfriggen believable!!!!

aussie oldsmobile 98

you sound like a bloody good neighbour to me!!!!
on ya mate!