442much

My friend has a 1969 442 W30 4 spd convertible that is just about ready for the road. He also has a 1970 442 W30 Convertible that is next in line for a ground up.

Someone told him that he needs a fan shroud for the 69. I thought because the car doesn't have air it probably doesn't have a shroud. (Just a shot in the dark on my part). The 70 doesn't have air and doesn't have a fan shroud either. However his 1969 Hurst/Olds has air and a fan shroud.

The question: Should the non air 69 W30 and non air 70 W30 be shroud-less to be original?

pogo69

the 69 gets a shroud

Mr Shifty Sidney

The 70 W-30 could have come with or without a shroud. Depends on the options. Especially rear gears, A/C....
It should have a fan clutch regardless.

Don W

Allan R

Hey Ken! Haven't seen you for a long time!

Might be a good thing to ask if he's looking for a concourse restoration and judging will be an issue. I'd go with the fan shroud, HD water pump and all the air channelling to keep the engine cool. That's what's happening on my 72 for cooling. Also changing the rad for better cooling now that it has 3.42 rear.

442much

He's wants a 100% factory look. So he wants it to be as correct as possible. His 69 Hurst has the shroud but it has air. The W30's don't have air and don't have a shroud. So far the answer is go with the shroud on the 69 W30 whether it has air or not...unless someone else knows something I don't.

Mr Shifty Sidney

Ken,
Here is a little more specific information for the 70 W-30. This is from the 70 assembly manual. Basically if it was a V-8 with A/C, four core radiator or Y72 (heavy duty cooling and generator pkg) than it got the shroud. 3:91 gears would have mandated the four core radiator and Y72 was not available with the W-30.

If the core support is the original you can look and see if it has the tabs for the shroud to fasten to. If it was originally a non shroud car it should not have the tabs.

I think in 69 and earlier years the W-30 option mandated lower gear ratios which in turn mandated better cooling systems. In the 70-72 W cars higher gear ratios were available and did not require the higher capacity cooling. Maybe Pogo69 will confirm about the 69's.

Hope this helps,
Don W

Allan R

Don, I don't think the rad support will have the mounting tabs on it. IIRC they were added to the cars with HD cooling and/or AC.

70Post

If he has the original radiator top plates for the car(s) that will tell the tale as well. Two completely different style radiator top plates were used depending on the radiator style (3 row VS. 4 row).

2blu442

As Patton said I think the top plate is the key. Here's some different styles to compare it to.

1969 W30 4 row radiator, TH400 & 3.91 You can see the bolt holes in the top plate for the shroud. The 1970 4 row used the same top plate
P8101134.jpg

Then here are some 2 or 3 row top plates designed for use without the shroud. These were used on 69-72 Cutlass/442
PB132092.jpg

Then here's a stack of 2-3 row top plates designed for use with a shroud.
PB132090.jpg

442much

Great information guys! That is something to check out. Thank you all.

rcktdoc

I had a 70 W30 post it came with 3;90s and had a 3 core, No shroud.I bought it from the original owner and it was delivered to Gila Bend AZ. He told me the car would always go up in temp when ever he stopped at a light or let it Idle for any length of time. I had another 70 post w30 with 3:90s and it had a 4 core and shroud.The 69s had fan shrouds.

Greg

RocketDevo

Rcktdoc, its interesting that your 1970 post W30 you had, had a 3 core with 3:91 gears. It was mandatory from the factory that 3:91 gear cars got the V01 cooling system which was a 4 core. Which FYI is the "EC" rad tag code.

442much

Just received an email from a friend of mine who is very knowledgeable about the W30 cars. He sent a diagram from the 1969 Assembly Manual. He said the W30 would not have the shroud.


On the diagram I saw the part number and remembered to look it up in my parts book for A body 1964-76. Here is what that book said.


1.277 SHROUD, RADIATOR FAN

402995

69 ALL V-8 EXC OAI W/ST
69 ALL V-8 AT W/OAI
70 ALL V-8

So it looks like if the 69 W30 (or W31) has a standard transmission, then no shroud. If it's an automatic it requires one.


I want to thank you all for your insight and suggestions. I am posting this for future reference. Thanks again.

rcktdoc

I also had a 69 W31 4:33 rear and it had a shroud.Out of the 35 W cars I have owned the only one to not have a shroud was the 70 post 4sp with the 3;90s

Greg

442much

Greg, one thing I've learned in the old car hobby is to never say never. I don't doubt what you are saying as anything is possible. However, the "official" info from Oldsmobile says 1969 4 spd W cars don't...or shouldn't have it. So I'll give him all the comments in this thread and let him decide what he wants to do. Thanks.

rcktdoc

I know exactly what the assy manual says,that doesnt mean that every one was built BY THE BOOK! Best thing to do is restore the car as it came IF you know thats how it came and document it. If you dont have a clue how it came do it according to the book.

Greg

oldsmobiledave

Ken what gear ratio is in the diff of Ray's car?

I think I have a nice used 1969-70 fan shroud in my parts pile if he needs one.

If it was my car it would get the correct top plate and shroud either way.

Dave

1969w3155

My '69 W31 4spd 4:33 geared car came with the shroud. (V01) and a four core radiator.

RocketDevo

442Much I think you are not understanding the parts catalogue correctly. The parts catalogue is stating what that fan shroud part number applies to, it is not stating all the vehicles that got a fan shroud.

72xw30

My 69 W30, 4sp, 3.91 gear car came with a 4 core rad (V01) and a shroud.

Cheers,

Sam

442much

Actually I don't think I'm misunderstanding the parts catalogue at all. The catalogue is also stating what that fan shroud doesn't apply to, that being the 4 spd OAI cars in 1969 only.

The part number for the shroud is 402995.

Parts catalogue: 69 ALL V-8 EXC OAI W/ST

Here's how I read it:

For 1969 shroud 402995 is used on all A body V8 cars...except OAI cars with a standard transmission. OAI being Outside Air Induction Oldsmobile's version of "Ram Air" (or W30/W31)

If I went in to an Oldsmobile dealership in 1970 and told the parts guy that I need a shroud for my 1969 442 W30 4 spd car, he might have said "There is no shroud recommended for the 69 4 spd W car however a 402995 will fit if you want to add it."

Parts Catalogue - same part number 402995: 69 ALL V-8 AT W/OAI

I read this to mean that shroud 402995 is used on all 1969 A body V8s with an automatic transmission (including OAI cars).

So, the way I see it, all V-8 A body cars in 1969 use shroud 402995...except for manual OAI cars. The catalogue does not offer another shroud part numer for a 1969 4 speed W car. The assembly manual confirms this. (see diagram in previous post).

So it's logical to conclude that from the factory (not the dealership) a 4 spd W car had no shroud in 1969. Is this true in every single case? Of course not. As I said never say never, anything was possible even on the assembly line. However according the available literature that I have access to, a 1969 4 spd W car with a shroud was the exception, not the rule. If my friend wants the car to be 100% factory correct, he'll have to use the literature that is available and follow it.

If he adds a shroud and at a show someone claims it's wrong, there is no evidence to support him having the shroud. If the shroud is not there and someone says it's wrong, he can show them the assembly manual diagram and point to the parts catalogue as well. The onus is now on the person claiming the missing shroud is a mistake to prove it.

Anyway, that's how I look at it. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, but that's what makes this hobby great...the exchange of ideas and opinions. Have a good night.

RocketDevo

442much I guess I should have worded it differently. In the parts book, part number 402995 says: 70 ALL V8 along with other applications. It is meant that if you had a shroud in 1970 that is the part number. It does not mean all 1970 V8 models got a fan shroud. I am not sure if I mistook how you interpreted it.
The best indicator if the car came with a shroud, is the mounting tabs for the shroud at the bottom of the radiator support. Hope this clarifies things.

442much

Hi RocketDevo, what does it say for 1969? We're only concerned for 1969. I do see what you're saying, however I would say that since he didn't buy the car brand new, we don't know what is original and what is not. We have to go with the literature we can find. The parts catalogue say that all V-8 cars used the shroud, and this is the part number required if they need a replacement ...except...OAI cars with standard transmission. So I looked for a replacement shroud for the 69 OAI ST cars. None are offered. So you could conclude from that, that it was not supposed to have one.

Also, if I bought a car brand new and said I don't want a radio, the dash I would receive in my new car (not todays cars) would be exactly as all the other cars with radio's except I would have a plate covering the radio hole; I wouldn't have received a differently designed dash that was designed for no radio. Perhaps Olds built all radiator supports with mounting tabs, I don't know, but it would make sense. Why make a special support for perhaps 5% of the total sales of the A body? Also, it's possible that the shroud may even fit other GM A bodies, like Chevelle, Tempest, LeMans, Skylark, but I haven't checked into this. As most V-8 A bodies had the shroud why go through the extra time and expense to make only a few; but that's a question for another post.


I do understand what you're saying and it makes sense to me. I just filled in the blanks where there was no other proof to tell me otherwise. While there are replacements for all other V-8's, the parts catalogue doesn't offer one for 69 OAI manual transmission cars even under another part number. That's how I came to the conclusion I did.


I do appreciate your feedback and opinion.

Mr Shifty Sidney

This is from my parts catalog dated Sept. 1972. Sorry, still not a clear answer for you.

Don W

Mr Shifty Sidney

I would try to research some 69 original cars if possible. I do not know why the transmission would dictate a fan shroud or not. The pattern on the 70 -72 W cars seem to be that anything with gears steeper than 3:42 would have a 4 core radiator and shroud. I wonder if this is true for the 69s as well. The 4 speed 69 W-30's listed in this thread have had the steep gears with shroud.

Don W

1969w3155

I find it odd that two of us have 4:33 4 spd. cars and a shroud, but the assy. manual says otherwise, I have the Technical Service Bulletin binder for 1969, which I do not know if it is complete, and it makes no reference to adding the shroud to customer cars with overheating problems, but I can only guess that would be the reason to have them, as a solution to that problem. I always thought that VO1 was the four core radiator and shroud. I am the third owner of my car, but cannot prove that it came with it, no matter what my gut feeling is on the matter, so until something comes up to prove otherwise, it shouldn't have it...but it's staying.

RocketDevo

Hey 442much, the fan shrouds I do not believe interchanged with other divisions. They made the same one for all "A" body 69-70 models (402995) and another one that covered all "A" body's in 71-72. The only difference of a rad support with a shroud and without was the mounting tabs spot welded on the bottom. It was easy to ad them. Any car that had heavy duty cooling such as AC essentially got a fan shroud, Not to be confused with heavy duty radiator, as it would defeat the purpose to not use a shroud. I believe 1969 cars with OAI and ST not getting a shroud according to the parts book manual is a vague statement. The thing is if you had a 3:91 gear car in 1969 what ever the options were, the factory would have mandated heavy duty cooling ergo a fan shroud. I cant say for sure but I don't believe the blanket statement applies, OAI and standard Trans did not get a fan shroud. In 1969 the only OAI cars with standard Trans were W30 and W31, which in turn meant that they got a 3:42 or higher gear rear end. I hope this helps.

442much

You know, I agree with you. I would expect that cars with highter gears (numerically) would have a shroud, however I can only prove what the literature says and the assembly manual says OAI ST cars didn't have one.

GoodOldsGuyDougie

FYI-Both of my 69's came with shrouds. One is a 350 and the other is 455. Both were Factory A/C cars though.

rcktdoc

ALL 68/69 W cars I have seen have had shrouds,all cars equipt with a fan clutch had shrouds and ALL W cars had fan clutches.

Greg

cdoering

What should a 70 442 with A/C and 3:23 gears have as well as a 70 W30 with A/C and 3:23 gears (both automatic).

Should you have a 3 row or 4 row radiator and what numbers on the radiator - CF, CA, CI

BlackGold

1970 442s with A/C (regardless of W-30 status) got a 4-row radiator.


There's at least one thread on this site which discusses radiator tag- and tank-stampings for this combination.