jaunty75

Brief mention in the "club clips" section of October 13th edition of Old Cars Weekly about a method recommended by someone in the Southern California Chapter of the Solid Axle Corvette Club.

All gasoline in California is 10% ethanol, and that can lead to corrosion of pot metal components used in carburetors in older Corvettes. He says that, to remedy the matter, add a half quart of automatic transmission fluid to every full tank of gasoline. This won't repair existing damage but will restrict the possibility of new damage. Dextron ATF is what the columnist uses.

There's been all kinds of debate about the effect of ethanol on older cars and the various measures people take to combat them. I've never heard of the ATF idea. It's a relatively cheap, easy to implement solution.

I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this. Anyone ever try it?

oldcutlass

I've never heard of it offstting the damage of ethanol in fuel systems. I have heard of it used to clean and lubricate injectors and such in gas engines! It's been widely accepted in deisels forever!

I've used it to unstick lifters in fuel, it works great as an internal degreaser if you add it to oil! However I prefer to use Marvel/ or Rislone!

Tried looking it up on the internet??? Maybe you can post the an article!

jaunty75

It's not online that I can find at the OCW website. It's only in the print edition.

oldsguybry

dont mean to hijack , but is there a product you put in the gas or oil for old cars running todays gas?... is that Lucas Oil Treatment?

Red Delta

I'm interested in what I could do to make my car compatible with ethanol. Since it seems to be here to stay, might as well adapt.

oldcutlass

Update your fuel system!! Replace all your rubber fuel llines with new! Rebuild the carb with newer seals and gaskets!

jaunty75

This is good as far as it goes, but the point of this article is that it isn't just the rubber parts that are attacked. It's some of the metal parts in the carb as well, and this can't be solved by doing a rebuild as those parts aren't replaced. You have to do something about the ethanol itself.

Aron Nance

I read somewhere that Sta-Bil Blue (Marine) helps to reduce the effects of 10% Ethanol. Don't know if it's true, or not, but I'm adding it every tank of gas.

jaunty75

The question, though, is reduce the effects on what? Is this helping prevent attack of the rubber parts? metal parts? A lot of people say they do this or that because they read it somewhere or because someone told them to, but they don't often know exactly what the additive is doing and what it's not doing.

Sta-Bil does tout itself as preventing corrosion due to ethanol, so it sounds like it's doing what this guy with the Corvette Club says the automatic transmission fluid does--prevent attack on metal parts.

I know a lot of people go the Sta-Bil route, and it sounds like a good idea. My question from the beginning of this thread, though, is has anyone tried the ATF idea? What is there about ATF that might make it a better solution than Sta-Bil? Is it cheaper? A half-quart of ATF every fill-up is not very much. I haven't priced ATF lately, so I don't know which is cheaper.

oldcutlass

I use lucas fuel treatment! I drive my car alot, so the fuel never sits in there for any length of time! As I stated earlier, all the ill effects seem to be moisture related! So stabil is probably a good idea on a vehicle that sits for any length of time!! I check my tune about 4 times a year!

dc2x4drvr

Check the info on this site.
http://www.fuel-testers.com/
Ethanol laced fuel is deadly for our cars..

jaunty75

Two comments:

1. I asked the original question in this thread about the benefit, if any, of using automatic transmission fluid in the gas tank to help combat the effects of ethanol. I had not heard of this before, and I wondered if anyone else had. No one disputes that "ethanol-laced fuel is deadly for our cars." But that's not the point of the original question.

2. The site you've given is probably not impartial on this matter. It's a business that sells a kit to test for ethanol in fuels. Of course they're going to claim it's harmful. That's what gets you to buy the test kit.

dc2x4drvr

I would suggest you take a longer look at the site, they don't mention ATF specifically, but do give advise on more than a few additives sold to combat effects of ethanol laced fuel, and their formulas. Rather than asking whether or not anyone on this site has heard of using ATF to combat ethanol in our fuel, please consider doing your own research on ATF..I thought the site had some good impartial advise on protecting our engines from ethanol laced fuels.

Aceshigh

I just googled my *** off and found nothing.

Never heard of it either.

jaunty75

Hey, you do research your way, and I'll do research my way.

As far as I'm concerned, asking about the issue on classicoldsmobile.com IS part of the process of doing research on the subject. Maybe somebody has tried it. There would be no better an information source about the issue than someone who has first-hand experience with it. Or maybe somebody will try it and let us know his experiences.

jaunty75

Two comments for you:

1. The above sentence puts a ghastly image in my mind.

2. I teach for a living, and one of the things we're constantly telling students nowadays is that the world existed for a long time before google came along and that google is not the beginning and end of research into a subject. Not that I'm suggesting that you should go to the library or anything like that. But you should not take the fact that a google search turned up nothing to mean that there is no information on a subject or that there has never been any research or reporting on it.

RetroRanger

jaunty that is reasonable and good advice re google but to be fair IDK for sure but likely car related ethanol issues came after google !!!!

jaunty75

OK, now I have two comments for you!


1. Google was founded in 1997. From what I've read, the first testing of oxygenated additives in gasoline began in the 1920s, about 75 years before google came along. Serious use of ethanol in pump gasoline began before 1997.

2. Even if ethanol wasn't invented until after the founding of google, it doesn't mean that google will have the information. A normal Google search, which covers the "main" web, doesn't capture everything that's out there. You would have to do search in the separate "Google Scholar" feature. Even that wouldn't capture everything. There are a number of scientific and engineering databases that are not indexed by google and that would need to be checked if one were doing a serious search on a subject.


But this is getting way beyond anything I intended when I first started this thread. I just wanted to know if anyone had ever heard of or tried using ATF added to gasoline to combat the effects of ethanol. If the answer is no, it's no. I'm not asking people to do google searches or engineering database searches. I can do that myself if I'm interested enough.

Junkman

jaunty75

I have heard about using ATF in the fuel tank to inhibit the problems associated with the use of alchol in fuels. Click here to read more...

mmurphy77

I have never heard of adding ATF but can see no harm if done proportionately and would assume it would be along the lines of adding Marvel Mystery oil which was a very common practice way back when. Two things though. One of the main problems with Ethanol as I see it is the introduction of moisture into the fuel system. So I think an additive that displaces moisture (a dry gas-type additive or disstillate) would be more affective than a petroleum-based product. Also I think running ATF in the fuel would produce some smoke and residue; No?
There is a gas station very close to me that sells Ethanol-free Gasoline in a separate tank across from the main pumps. The only problem is it's 87 octane. I've been running it since my '71 is only 8.5 compression but would prefer a little higher octane.

jaunty75

This has always been my thinking. The idea is to "hide" the ethanol from anything that its presence could adversely affect. Does the ATF in some way coat the metal pieces the Corvette guy is worried about and thus protect them? It certainly doesn't absorb water, does it?

Probably not in the quantities we're talking about. He calls for only a half a quart (two cups) in a tank of maybe 20 or 25 gallons. A volume of 25 gallons, which is the tank capacity on my '67 Delta 88, is equivalent to 400 cups. Two cups is 2/400 or 1/200 or 0.5% of that volume. That's probably sufficiently diluted that its being burned would not be noticeable at the tailpipe.

That's cool that you have a place nearby where you can still buy pure gasoline. I wouldn't be worried about the 87 octane as long as the car is running OK. As long as it's not knocking, I don't think you have a problem. Around here, 87 is regular grade gas, and I put that in my '73 wagon with the 455 engine with no problems.

Vega

Ive done a lot of research on Ethanol, mainly E85 because thats what most of us would be running, and yes Ethanol is a VERY tricky subject but not for the reasons you may think. Ethanol itself is actually a pretty amazing fuel, its just sifting through all of the internet propoganda thats the hard part. Yes there are cons to it, but not nearly as many as people will lead you to believe just off 2nd hand knowledge.

From all of my research ive found that oldcutlass had it best, replace the rubbers and you should be fine. Ethanol does not harm any metals. Methanol does, but Methonal is a completely different fuel that often gets confused with Ethanol due to the similar name, as such many of the negative side effects of Methanol tend to get mixed in with Ethanol. The problem here isnt that Ethanol is harming the metals its that the gasoline used in the motor previously has left behind a lot of waste in the carb, normally this waste is burned off slowely and does not effect the function of the vehicle, however Ethanol has several cleaning properties to it and burns much cleaner than gasoline. While this sounds like a good thing, and generall is, it also means that it will pick up all of that leftover waste and will clog up sensative areas of the carb, intake, and motor in general. Plus E85 has different properties than gasoline and burns different so there would be inerent problems with using it in an original carb. My advice would be if you want to keep the original carb stick to gasoline as thats what the car was built for, if you want to run E85 you should buy a specially made carb optimized for E85. Yes it wont be original, but running E85 wouldnt be original either would it? haha

For anyone interested here's what you need to convert.
1. new fuel system (this is not NECESSARY, but is highly reccomended because of Ethanol's cleaning properties, it is best to start with a clean system to avoid any headaches)
2. a special carb optimized for E85 use (because E85 has different flow properties and burns different than gasoline, mainly it burns 20%-30% more so the carb needs to be optimized to allow that greater flow of fuel into the motor)
3. an E85 pump nearby and ready for your business

It is very simple to convert, the only cons are that E85 burns faster so you will use more fuel, it burns cooler which is a good thing most of the time and helps make more power but will hurt cold starts, and E85 doesnt store well so you need to let the car run at least once a week. The pros are that it burns cooler (i dont need to explain why thats better), it is MUCH higher octane, and it is way cleaner and will add to the lifespan of your motor.

Anyone who wants to know more or would like to attempt a conversion should PM me about it. Ive been emailing an expert on E85 lately and would gladly help in any way, from advice on E85 conversions/builds to helping sift through the trues and falses that comes with the fuel. This guy Ive been in contact with is converting his Pontiac 455 to E85 and has been emailing me about converting my Olds 455. From him ive learned of a few sources to get new carbs optimized for E85 or you can send your used carb to them and they will optimize it for E85. Like i said, if you have any questions or need advice feel free to PM me. E85 is a touchy subject and i know someone on here will totally disagree with me but these are the facts and ive really grown tired of arguing over this subject. Id rather just build my motor and prove it works than argue theory haha.

501Paratrooper

Here is a link to Gates' answer to fuel hoses and ethanol.

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?br...cation_id=5348

Vega

My last post is slightly off from the main topic here though.
Almost all gasoline you buy has some amount of ethanol in it these days. 10% wont hurt anything in your vehicle. The Ethanol blend stuff has been going on for a long long time so if problems are just now popping up its highly unlikely that its Ethanol related

jaunty75

Thank you for your lengthy post. It's very informative.

But this comment
flies directly in the face of what the Corvette guy I mentioned at the beginning of all this says. He claims that parts of Corvette carburetors (and I would asuume carburetors of other makes as well from the same time period) are made from pot metal which can be attacked by ethanol. That's what the ATF is supposed to protect against.

I will say that, until I read that article in Old Cars Weekly that quotes this guy, I had never heard of this issue.

jaunty75

Thank you!

I've always thought this. People post in these forums and elsewhere about the leaks they're having or deterioration in this or that part in their fuel system, and they immediately blame the ethanol, even though the problem occurs on the first tank of gas after they've replaced seals or something like that and there hasn't been time for the ethanol to have attacked anything.

Ethanol seems to be the universal bugaboo sometimes. No matter what goes wrong with your car, blame it on ethanol and the evil government that's making you put it in your car.

I owned a '64 Jetstar 88 and a '75 Delta 88 back in the '90s. I now own a '67 Delta 88 and a '73 Custom Cruiser. I have put nothing but regular grade pump gas from the local BP or Exxon or Speedway station in all of them but the '67, where I put in premium. I have never had an issue with driveability or loss of power or deterioration of components. The fact that these gasolines contain ethanol has never been an issue, and I've never worried about it or added anything to the gas tank because of it.

Aceshigh

Of course......however....1 comment for you.

If the worlds largest search engine can't find any data on a topic as big as Ethanol erosion to engines
with ATF being a cure after 14 years, I highly doubt there's many VIABLE sources to consider.

This isn't about bat dung color on the 4th day of the fall season in Africa during the full moon.
This is a VERY highly considered discussion for many years now. There would be data on it.

380 Racer

Google sucks nowa days. 50,000 results but are all repeats of 2 or 3.

I think that Vette guy had other issues.

FStanley

seems I was having to rebuild my quadrajet on my 79 every other year. things got stuck, or couldn't pass smog. occasionally driven show car..

started using Stabil Marine 360 treatment, also some Seafoam now and then and a good run on the freeway.. no problems since..

oldcutlass

Since someone resurrected this old thread. Non ethanol fuel had not been available to me since around 2010ish and my experience in using ethanol has not changed. I think most of the issues related to it is not upgrading rubber fuel lines and/or carb rubber pieces, lack of use, and not having the proper tune. Lack of vehicle use seems to be the biggest issue. The sky is not falling.

Tedd Thompson

This is a very old thread, but I couldn't resist a shot at it. Didn't early corvettes come with 4gc or 2gc carbs just like all the rest of the GM cars. We have no problem with them dissolving so far. As far as I know that era Rochester was aluminum and not a zinc rich mixture anyway. I know the real early carbs from the 20's- 30's were often made of pot metal or brass but later stuff seems to have switched to aluminum. I'm not sure this could be a corvette problem at all.... Tedd

RetroRanger

Fun71

I'll add to this discussion that my car has run on ethanol for nearly 20 years as that is the only fuel available in the Phoenix area. I have had the QJet carb open a few times and never saw anything odd in the fuel bowl or anywhere else. I think this fear of ethanol fuel, especially E-10, is unwarranted.

BackInTheGame

Anecdotally, I can say that my 2-stroke tools and dirtbike HATE ethanol. I have to rebuild the carbs and replace rubber fuel lines on my chainsaw, weed whacker and dirtbike regularly. This is using factory recommended amounts of the proper 2-stroke oil. The rubber hoses get extremely soft and malleable and pretty much fall apart after two or three seasons.

YMMV

shiftbyear

It's not the ethanol so much as ethanol's ability to absorb water which corrodes the carb and other components. I've seen the corroded pot metal first hand and it's ugly. It's also a problem for trucks transporting ethanol. Good post.

https://theshopmag.com/features/etha...es-carburetors

oldcutlass

That's a 4 1/2 year old article and it failed to mention that the ethanol from S America is sugar based. Again some of us have been using it for years with no ill effects to our carbs and I'm still running the original steel tank in my car.