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Allan and Norm...
I checked the bumper braces underneath and I have all six of them. I'll take better pics of the ones under the hood tomorrow morning. In the meantime, what is the length of the center bumper braces?
Ok, here are a couple pics of the braces under the hood. As you can see, the ends are 90 deg opposite of each other, and unless I'm wrong about the inner bumper braces, the ends on those are on the same plane, correct?
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
No doubt they are braces for the front bumper. They don't belong there but if you prefer to keep them, leave them in. What I also noted is the bolts securing the fender liner to the RS fender are the wrong ones; they're way too long.
No doubt they are braces for the front bumper. They don't belong there but if you prefer to keep them, leave them in. What I also noted is the bolts securing the fender liner to the RS fender are the wrong ones; they're way too long.
Thanks for the tip about the bolts Allan...I noticed them yesterday. Are they special bolts or does it matter what I use?
You can see that the slotted holes where the 5/16" bolts go thru are large, as if made for a 1/2" bolt. That and with the too long bolts on the inner fender sure makes one believe the sheet metal has been off before. So I think now that the braces were added (maybe accidentally) by a previous owner. Your choice, I changed my mind and think now I would take em off but no harm if left on....
If you elect to remove those long bolts & replace them with correctly sized OEM bolts, you may very well find out why the PO installed fender>radiator support braces. The front-end has probably been re-worked by a PO. I'd check the integrity of the front fender braces & front fender components just to ensure they appear aligned and correctly installed (Group 11, pages 126 through 130 of the 1972 ASM).
If you elect to remove those long bolts & replace them with correctly sized OEM bolts, you may very well find out why the PO installed fender>radiator support braces. The front-end has probably been re-worked by a PO. I'd check the integrity of the front fender braces & front fender components just to ensure they appear aligned and correctly installed (Group 11, pages 126 through 130 of the 1972 ASM).
I'll check that tonight. In the meantime, do I need specific bolts to replace the long ones on the pass side, or does it matter?
I'll check that tonight. In the meantime, do I need specific bolts to replace the long ones on the pass side, or does it matter?
I'd "first" check to see if there is a "reason" those long bolts were installed that's why I suggested you evaluate the integrity of the front fender braces & front fender components just to ensure they appear aligned and correctly installed. It's kind of like this Dave, you installed a switch into your front radiator support for your under-hood lamp - which never existed on any vehicle. It's your call. You want to burrow into a hole or work with what works best on your vehicle?
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Originally Posted by 72455
Are they special bolts or does it matter what I use?
They're a specific length Dave. If you take one out of the other side and compare you'll be able to source the right size bolt. I think that a PO may have had the front end apart for some reason (possibly a crash and needed to replace fenders and inner liners?) and the proper bolts simply got misplaced. If you're not too concerned about the bolt length you can leave them. On the other hand you could also remove them and simply cut them down to size yourself.
BTW, and I just thought of this. I remember my 1983 Regency Brougham never had braces in the engine compartment. But one day while I was out at the boneyard I saw a Custom Cruiser (Same basically except it's a wagon) which had them. So I removed them and fitted them into my Ninety Eight. It was just something done spur of the moment. It makes me now wonder why the wagons (VC and CC) got those but not the other models.
I seriously doubt there's any structural integrity that would be lost be removing them from your car. I have the same Assembly Manual Norm referenced and there's no reason to think the front fenders aren't properly fitted. Your car has some PO changes that likely were preference items; It now has a non factory hood scoop, and non factory hood lock down system. I don't know if the hood scoop is functional, but I'd bet the tie downs were a safety requirement for racing when it was living a different life. Also the rocker stainless was removed and the bumpers painted black. I'm betting the braces were leftovers from something else that were just added like I did to my 83. Like I mentioned in your first post; you can leave them or keep them. I will point out that the VC braces went from the firewall to the rad support, not the rad support to the fender. They won't affect showing your car off, and only real Olds people will know they're not stock at a judging event.
There were specific BBO braces for your car that run from the rear of the fender to the frame to stiffen it against the torque the 455 produced, you should check to see if they are on your car - they were standard on 455 A bodies except verts and VC's)
They're a specific length Dave. If you take one out of the other side and compare you'll be able to source the right size bolt. I think that a PO may have had the front end apart for some reason (possibly a crash and needed to replace fenders and inner liners?) and the proper bolts simply got misplaced. If you're not too concerned about the bolt length you can leave them. On the other hand you could also remove them and simply cut them down to size yourself.
BTW, and I just thought of this. I remember my 1983 Regency Brougham never had braces in the engine compartment. But one day while I was out at the boneyard I saw a Custom Cruiser (Same basically except it's a wagon) which had them. So I removed them and fitted them into my Ninety Eight. It was just something done spur of the moment. It makes me now wonder why the wagons (VC and CC) got those but not the other models.
I seriously doubt there's any structural integrity that would be lost be removing them from your car. I have the same Assembly Manual Norm referenced and there's no reason to think the front fenders aren't properly fitted. Your car has some PO changes that likely were preference items; It now has a non factory hood scoop, and non factory hood lock down system. I don't know if the hood scoop is functional, but I'd bet the tie downs were a safety requirement for racing when it was living a different life. Also the rocker stainless was removed and the bumpers painted black. I'm betting the braces were leftovers from something else that were just added like I did to my 83. Like I mentioned in your first post; you can leave them or keep them. I will point out that the VC braces went from the firewall to the rad support, not the rad support to the fender. They won't affect showing your car off, and only real Olds people will know they're not stock at a judging event.
There were specific BBO braces for your car that run from the rear of the fender to the frame to stiffen it against the torque the 455 produced, you should check to see if they are on your car - they were standard on 455 A bodies except verts and VC's)
Thanks for the feedback Allan. Would I see the braces that go from the rear of the fender to the frame if I looked under the car?
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Originally Posted by 72455
Thanks for the feedback Allan. Would I see the braces that go from the rear of the fender to the frame if I looked under the car?
Depends on whether you have the FE2 suspension package. If you do, look at the front of the lower control arms for a brace that attaches there and runs up to the sheet metal on the bottom of the car.
The longer braces that would be in the engine compartment would go from the torque boxes (you know where they are?) to the top inside of the fenders. They would bolt to the fender behind the wheel inner liner, and in front of the hinge.
The ones that attach to the torque box and fender look like this and are about 4' or so long:
The body braces on the FE2 suspension - I'll see if I can find you a picture of the setup
Allan I don't know where the torque boxes are and I'm really having trouble understanding where these braces are. I don't have the braces that go from the control arms to the sheet metal so I'm going to assume I don't have the FE2 suspension. How can I positively know if I have the braces that go from the torque boxes to the fender? I really want to know and have a clear understanding of what I'm looking for and where to look.
Depends on whether you have the FE2 suspension package. If you do, look at the front of the lower control arms for a brace that attaches there and runs up to the sheet metal on the bottom of the car.
The longer braces that would be in the engine compartment would go from the torque boxes (you know where they are?) to the top inside of the fenders. They would bolt to the fender behind the wheel inner liner, and in front of the hinge.
The ones that attach to the torque box and fender look like this and are about 4' or so long:
The body braces on the FE2 suspension - I'll see if I can find you a picture of the setup
I think the jury is still out Allen on whether all A-bodies with the FE-2 suspension received the rear frame braces. There is a thread that was discussing this same subject. There was no clear finding or consensus if all big blocks got the braces, if it was all cars with manual transmissions, only big block cars with a manual transmission, and then all of those combinations with and without an FE-2 suspension. It seemed someone had a car that was factory equipped either with or without the FE-2 suspension, in the different big/small block and automatic/manual combinations.
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Far as I know, all 455 Olds A bodies with the FE2 suspension got the rear frame braces. 350 cars with FE2 didn't. Dave hasn't clarified if his car has an FE2 suspension.
The front braces were only on 455 equipped (non convertible) A bodies, regardless of AT or SMT. Dave's car is a U code CS, which means it should have those braces.
Ok...now I'm really confused...how did we go from torque braces to rear suspension braces? All I'm trying to find out is how to verify if I have the fender to body braces for the 455.
Is this the brace, and how can I know if I have them?
Last edited by 72455; March 28th, 2019 at 06:59 PM.
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Dave, yes that's the brace I was telling you about. It attaches to the inside of the fender, as seen in fig A, and the torque box. That's the structural piece attached to the firewall - where the opening is for the e-brake cable to go through as well. It should be really easy for you to look down the side of the inner fender to the torque box. If there's nothing there, you don't have them.
I'm really not getting it Allan...when you say inner fender are you talking about the inside of the fender under the hood or are you talking about between the fender and the inner fender?
Sorry, did not mean to confuse the issue about the front fender braces installed on 455 equipped cars. Allen, were the rear frame braces installed at the factory only on 455 equipped cars, regardless of suspension type or transmission selected?
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Originally Posted by 72455
I'm really not getting it Allan...when you say inner fender are you talking about the inside of the fender under the hood or are you talking about between the fender and the inner fender?
Dave, maybe the better way to describe this is to say the brace is bolted to inside of the fender - meaning the side you don't see looking at the engine bay. Look for a bolt/nut that doesn't appear to be attached to anything looking from the engine side. then look for a brace that runs down to that torque box. I think you're confusing the inner fender with fender liner? There is only one way to describe inner fender. That diagram on the CSM shows it pretty clearly. Have another look. If it's not there, it's been removed. That might be the reason the PO put those braces on the rad support to fender. Wrong place for torque vectoring though.
Dave, yes that's the brace I was telling you about. It attaches to the inside of the fender, as seen in fig A, and the torque box. That's the structural piece attached to the firewall - where the opening is for the e-brake cable to go through as well. It should be really easy for you to look down the side of the inner fender to the torque box. If there's nothing there, you don't have them.
Ok I figured it out...and I don't have them😕 (see pic below). So...do I absolutely need them and if so, can they be installed easily? Also, can we postulate (fancy word...lol) that the braces under the hood were installed to take place of the torque braces?
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Originally Posted by anthonyP
Sorry, did not mean to confuse the issue about the front fender braces installed on 455 equipped cars. Allen, were the rear frame braces installed at the factory only on 455 equipped cars, regardless of suspension type or transmission selected?
Let's start by stating the FE2 suspension was offered on many of the Cutlass lineups, including the cars with 350's. The 455's got the extra rear brace, with the exception of the convertible. The FE2 and braces were factory installed, dealer installed, and owner installed. Pick one. Were they indifferent of transmission? I'd guess yes.
Let's start by stating the FE2 suspension was offered on many of the Cutlass lineups, including the cars with 350's. The 455's got the extra rear brace, with the exception of the convertible. The FE2 and braces were factory installed, dealer installed, and owner installed. Pick one. Were they indifferent of transmission? I'd guess yes.
Ok...time to open another can of worms (isn't this fun?) 😀 ....how would I know if I had these braces and where would I look...or are they covered in the CSM?
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Originally Posted by 72455
Ok I figured it out...and I don't have them😕 (see pic below). So...do I absolutely need them and if so, can they be installed easily? Also, can we postulate (fancy word...lol) that the braces under the hood were installed to take place of the torque braces?
Do you absolutely need them? Do you plan to drive the car hard from time to time? They were a feature of the 455 cars from the factory. If it was me, for the small amount of $ it takes to buy a set of repops I'd put them in. Like I said earlier, I'm totally speculating that the PO did numerous personal touches to the car. One of the things I also suggested is the car may have been hit or damaged requiring a replacement fender/fenders. That may have damaged those braces also and a body shop may have overlooked replacing them. Again, this is your call on putting them in or not. Since you're going towards more of a stock issue with your car for the most part, If it was me, I'd put them in. They would be way more structural than the ones you have in there now, as their only source of rigidity appears to be the rad support.
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Originally Posted by 72455
Ok...time to open another can of worms (isn't this fun?) 😀 ....how would I know if I had these braces and where would I look...or are they covered in the CSM?
They would be attached to the lower rear control arms and bolted to the rear body structure. Do you have a sway bar and boxed control arms? That would be the best place to start looking for the answers.
Do you absolutely need them? Do you plan to drive the car hard from time to time? They were a feature of the 455 cars from the factory. If it was me, for the small amount of $ it takes to buy a set of repops I'd put them in. Like I said earlier, I'm totally speculating that the PO did numerous personal touches to the car. One of the things I also suggested is the car may have been hit or damaged requiring a replacement fender/fenders. That may have damaged those braces also and a body shop may have overlooked replacing them. Again, this is your call on putting them in or not. Since you're going towards more of a stock issue with your car for the most part, If it was me, I'd put them in. They would be way more structural than the ones you have in there now, as their only source of rigidity appears to be the rad support.
Gotcha...what's the difficulty level of installation?
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Not sure, I never had to install them. But I'd guess not terribly hard. You have to access the torque box from below. Either that or remove the fender liners.
They would be attached to the lower rear control arms and bolted to the rear body structure. Do you have a sway bar and boxed control arms? That would be the best place to start looking for the answers.
No rear sway bar and yes, the control arms are boxed but I think they're afternarket....see what you think...
Last edited by 72455; March 28th, 2019 at 08:14 PM.
Not sure, I never had to install them. But I'd guess not terribly hard. You have to access the torque box from below. Either that or remove the fender liners.
I think the bottom would be easy, but getting the bolt through the top where the hood hinge is may be a different story.
You're heading down a road you do not want to travel, IMO, unless you plan to perform a frame-on restoration of your front-end. Unless you're really good w/ body work & sheet metal fabrication, you aren't going to accomplish anything which adds any value to your vehicle. You're not talking about the simple removal of nuts, bolts & screws. You're talking about alignment of structural members/components. You'll need a large amount of time (and patience) to accommodate what I would consider a serious amount of conjecture and non sequiturs displayed thus far in this thread. Pick your battles - some you lose, some you win. Drive it and enjoy it my suggestion on this one.
I think you'd be better served saving your energy for those headers you plan to install.
There's a reason for everything - I think you're finding out why those fender braces and long bolts were installed, maybe?
Last edited by Vintage Chief; March 29th, 2019 at 01:31 AM.
You're heading down a road you do not want to travel, IMO, unless you plan to perform a frame-on restoration of your front-end. Unless you're really good w/ body work & sheet metal fabrication, you aren't going to accomplish anything which adds any value to your vehicle. You're not talking about the simple removal of nuts, bolts & screws. You're talking about alignment of structural members/components. You'll need a large amount of time (and patience) to accommodate what I would consider a serious amount of conjecture and non sequiturs displayed thus far in this thread. Pick your battles - some you lose, some you win. Drive it and enjoy it my suggestion on this one.
I think you'd be better served saving your energy for those headers you plan to install.
There's a reason for everything - I think you're finding out why those fender braces and long bolts were installed, maybe?
Good morning Norm and thx for the response. I share your thoughts on the braces, but you lost me on the long bolts. Care to elaborate?
Good Morning. I was referring to these long bolts (I guess they're really screws when I view them again). Probably installed these big & beefy bolts to provide added rigidity in place of the smaller OEM screws. They're big'n's. LOL
[/QUOTE]
EDIT: Well, they actually are bolts - the nuts are welded in.
Good Morning. I was referring to these long bolts (I guess they're really screws when I view them again). Probably installed these big & beefy bolts to provide added rigidity in place of the smaller OEM screws. They're big'n's. LOL
EDIT: Well, they actually are bolts - the nuts are welded in.
So you think that maybe the longer bolts were installed to assist with those braces? If so, what do you think the reason would be that they're not on the driver side?
So you think that maybe the longer bolts were installed to assist with those braces? If so, what do you think the reason would be that they're not on the driver side?
This is complete postulation with no resemblance of fact - entirely conjecture on my part. Those braces I always thought were put in place to accommodate/provide more triangular rigidity to the front-end - for any number of reasons (some which I've already elaborated on). Let's say a PO dinged the front-end (passenger side in particular). Who knows who did the body work? Let's say some buddies did the work - one guy worked sheet metal fabrication, another had the tools, another had this and so forth. End of day, you put it all back together.
Gosh darn it, that OEM fender bracket is busted and won't fit, then someone says hey, I have this new hood I want to install at the same time, but the hood doesn't fit right. Are those the OEM hood hinges? Should I fabricate a new fender brace, buy a new one? Questions abound, the car still needs to get back together. This stuff happens all the time. So, you put it all back together and create your own best-fit alignment. Maybe those longer bolts were installed to assist with simply holding the fender in place because there is no fender brace on the vehicle because they never put it on because they couldn't get it to align. Complete conjecture - who knows?
Do you absolutely need them? Do you plan to drive the car hard from time to time? They were a feature of the 455 cars from the factory. If it was me, for the small amount of $ it takes to buy a set of repops I'd put them in. Like I said earlier, I'm totally speculating that the PO did numerous personal touches to the car. One of the things I also suggested is the car may have been hit or damaged requiring a replacement fender/fenders. That may have damaged those braces also and a body shop may have overlooked replacing them. Again, this is your call on putting them in or not. Since you're going towards more of a stock issue with your car for the most part, If it was me, I'd put them in. They would be way more structural than the ones you have in there now, as their only source of rigidity appears to be the rad support.
Hey Allan if your definition of driving the car "hard from time to time" is making the occasional pass down the 1320, then my answer would be no. I mainly cruise and every once in a while a burnout, but that's about it. I've worked too hard saving the $ to get it, and not to mention the time and $ I've put into it since I bought it to do anything dumb and tear it up to jeapordize the enjoyment I get from it.
So, having said that, I will entertain the idea of replacing the braces, but if the work involved is going to be as tedious as Norm mentioned, then I'll move on.
If my post comes off as abrasive, that's not my intent. I just wanted to give you an idea of where I am at this point, and as always, I welcome your feedback.
Thanks,
Dave
Last edited by 72455; March 29th, 2019 at 04:17 AM.
This is complete postulation with no resemblance of fact - entirely conjecture on my part. Those braces I always thought were put in place to accommodate/provide more triangular rigidity to the front-end - for any number of reasons (some which I've already elaborated on). Let's say a PO dinged the front-end (passenger side in particular). Who knows who did the body work? Let's say some buddies did the work - one guy worked sheet metal fabrication, another had the tools, another had this and so forth. End of day, you put it all back together.
Gosh darn it, that OEM fender bracket is busted and won't fit, then someone says hey, I have this new hood I want to install at the same time, but the hood doesn't fit right. Are those the OEM hood hinges? Should I fabricate a new fender brace, buy a new one? Questions abound, the car still needs to get back together. This stuff happens all the time. So, you put it all back together and create your own best-fit alignment. Maybe those longer bolts were installed to assist with simply holding the fender in place because there is no fender brace on the vehicle because they never put it on because they couldn't get it to align. Complete conjecture - who knows?
Ok...so as I asked Allan, in your opinion, do I need the braces? (see my response above)
Ok...so as I asked Allan, in your opinion, do I need the braces? (see my response above)
Late response - golf always gets in my way.
I'm going to address your question from this perspective:
Ok I figured it out...and I don't have them�� (see pic below). So...do I absolutely need them and if so, can they be installed easily? Also, can we postulate (fancy word...lol) that the braces under the hood were installed to take place of the torque braces?
1) Do you absolutely need them? I have absolutely no idea if you need them. I have absolutely no idea if they would align correctly if you did buy them and attempt to install them. I don't know why you don't have them. I would not install them if they aren't on the vehicle now and there are no issues (currently) with alignment and ability to safely drive the vehicle.
2) Can they be installed easily? Million dollar question. Was there work performed on the fenders where they attach? Are there shims in other areas of the front-end which would have made them obsolete because of other fabrication which I can't validate without seeing the vehicle first-hand. I would not install them if they aren't on the vehicle now and there are no issues (currently) with alignment and ability to safely drive the vehicle.
3) Can we postulate the braces under the hood were installed to take place of the torque braces? Second million dollar question. Was there work performed on the fenders where they attach? Are there shims in other areas of the front-end which would have made them obsolete because of other fabrication which I can't validate without seeing the vehicle first-hand. I would not install them if they aren't on the vehicle now and there are no issues (currently) with alignment and ability to safely drive the vehicle. I'm not certain I could postulate the reason they're there is to take the place of any other braces - I can't view your vehicle. Personally, if you elect to install them, I believe you're opening a can of worms and none of them are decent night crawlers worth using as bait.
Last edited by Vintage Chief; March 29th, 2019 at 12:42 PM.
Those braces from the fender to the core support wont and dont do a damn thing,except get in the way.They definitely wont have any effect on front end component alignment! Greg
Those braces from the fender to the core support wont and dont do a damn thing,except get in the way.They definitely wont have any effect on front end component alignment! Greg
March 25th, 2019, 07:14 PM
