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We know where GM is headed... but

Old January 11th, 2019, 08:11 AM
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We know where GM is headed... but

The Announcement of the Oshawa Plant closer heading to mexico for competitiveness in the market has really rocked the auto sector workers.
The buses are heading down to Windsor and will be arriving around 11:00am this morning. Unfortunately, a 6 hour bus ride to stand out in the cold to get a point across, its not going to turn this deal around for them.
The homes in Oshawa will drop, just as they did in Windsor and Detroit in 2008
GM record sales in 2018, I think, the 2019 sales will be staggering.
From walk-outs, to down time to line speed slowing in the Oshawa plant. See what direction this will turn in the near future.
I feel for the workers that lost the Jobs, and pensions during GM's bankruptcy year. Looks like many more families will be impacted yet again. Nothing lasts forever!
Mexico government is lovin' this. Not sure about the employees making $2-4 bucks an hour on the lines.
IMO, one and possibly 2 of the "BIG 3 " will go down eventually. So sad!
How many here will buy GM vehicles in this 2019 year ?
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Old January 11th, 2019, 08:30 AM
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GM already went down. The Gov't should've let them stay there.

I was just looking at new Chevies and some dealers still have 2017s piled up. Not looking good for GM.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 01:41 PM
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GM exited bankruptcy July 2009 with no debt; the bond-holders got wiped out.

Sadly, GM has claimed profits of $47 billion since then but now has $72 billion in debt. That's creative accounting on a major-league level.

Of that $72 billion debt, $10 billion went toward buying back their own shares to raise the stock value and enrich the management.

When the next recession comes, GM is no more. Ford and FCA are on the brink as well.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 02:55 PM
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The real GM was dissolved in 2011. The current GM is a new company created by the Gov't that bought up GM's assets and intellectual property.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 03:43 PM
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General Motors is not going under,we have known for years General Motors is abandoning the United States to go to China.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 05:03 PM
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Most of GM's vehicles are but ugly. They killed 2 of the brands I would have purchased and Buick might as well die, nothing worth buying. My Challenger was built in Brampton, Ontario. It is the second one I have bought and will be buying another one in a couple of years. No, I won't buy an ugly Camaro, everyone thought the same with the new Mario mustache front end, the Challenger out sold it in 2018. Shame on GM period.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403 View Post
My Challenger was built in Brampton, Ontario.
Mine too. I drove a Camaro for a few days and sat in a Mustang. The Camaro seating position was too low with regard to the side windows; the Mustang felt small. I bought a Challenger SRT--the first non-GM car I've had in almost 60 years of car ownership. I liked it so much that I began to wonder why I was keeping my 32,000-mile 1970 Corvette that I'd had since new. New cars, done well, give away nothing comfort- or performance-wise to the classic muscle cars; and the Challenger also has muscle car panache. I don't see anything from GM that I like except the Corvette.

'dreaming is spot on when he says: General Motors [will be] abandoning the United States to go to China. GM doesn't offer much in the way of excitement or even interest for car people like us. They're existing off the Buick name that gives them huge Chinese sales--likely until the Chinese start feeling the way many of us do.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 09:03 PM
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Typical short term planning. Big 3 keep moving jobs and equipment to Mexico where workers make a fraction of what American workers make, fo the prices of cars come down? Hell no! Worker wages is a small percentage of the total cost of manufacturing, but itís the one of the most visible to the general public. And with all the automation in factories today, plants are more efficient than ever. More vehicles are built now with fewer people.

As a 20 year FCA employee, I despise this two tier wage setup we have now. New hires started out making half what us old timers make, once again, less worker wages, do the price of cars go down?! And these new hires that were making 12-14 bucks an hour canít afford a 40-50k car or truck.

The last UAW contract that was negotiated cause some major arguments with my wife and I. There was no laungauge for raising wages of the new hires. She thought with the way the economy was going, we should be thankful for whatever they were willing to give. No thanks, we gave up plenty with the bankruptcy, once the company started making a profit, it was time to enjoy the benefit of the hard work. And I refuse to vote in favor of anything that didnít benefit the new hires. Eventually, the new hires will outnumber the legacy workers, that would make us the expendable ones. Short term thinking.

While I agree with always looking for better/cheaper/ easier ways to make ANYTHING, it seems short-sighted to kick the people to the curb who actually buy and make the product.

Ok, Iím done venting.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 09:10 PM
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My last GM is the Buick I'm currently driving, an 01 LeSabre. We did buy a new Buick Allure in 2008, and it's already in the wreckers. Probably never own a newer one.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 09:45 PM
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I bought an 06 Buick Lucern in December of 05. Best car I ever owned after Olds went down. Buick quit making the Lucern because of quality issues with the later ones. I have a Buick Encore 2018 model. Made in China. Don't know how it will last under my driving style. Actually it is an Opel with Buick name.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 09:52 PM
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I absolutely love my '16 Scat Pack Shaker - it's a Canadian build. Meanwhile, my wife's Acura TL was built a couple hours away in Ohio. Go figure. All my classics are GM, but my modern musclecars are Hemi powered. The LX platform and styling just hold more appeal for me at 50 than the Camaro or C7 Corvette (as great as it is) do.

The future won't wait for GM if they don't adapt the product and business models to compete with Tesla, self driving cars, Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, etc. who are all in it to win the hearts, minds and cash of customers around the world. That's the killer competition, but it is a lousy situation for workers who have been a part of these plants for so long...

Terry


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Old January 12th, 2019, 02:19 AM
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I tried buying a Challenger when they were marked all the way down to $20k at the end of the year, but couldn't get financing even with a 696 score. Hard to feel sorry for the Big Three having all those unsold cars sitting around when they do this stuff to themselves.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 04:37 AM
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I think a lot started changing back in the 80's. There was the recession, the AIr Traffic Controllers being fired and the beginning of the "two tier wage" system, Poor quality of cars in an effort to increase bottom line profits. Companies paid bonuses if the company made money...now executives get paid "performance bonuses" for reaching "benchmarks" such stock share price increases. Companies big and small were "members of the community". Now they have no allegiance to anyone.
.....Just my two cents worth
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Old January 12th, 2019, 07:38 AM
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I remember an article on GM in the 1980s, possibly in Motor Trend, where the management said their goal was a 4% failure rate on any part. Think about that! After GM mismanagement killed Oldsmobile, I decided to never buy a new GM.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 09:14 AM
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I have found that big corporations have, through cost cutting, eliminated any sort of "good treatment" to their employees, yet they are absolutely shocked and horribly hurt when you do not give them unconditional love in return.

Not to get into my personal story too much, but I found out this past year with real proof that my company, Toyota, is only concerned with what is legal, not what is right. They tout "Respect for People" as one of the "pillars of their house,"
yet they do horrible things to people that are fine, as long as they are legal. I shouldn't be surprised that this level of corporate virtue signalling* has been going on so much, but it still disgusts me.

*= virtue signalling, for those unfamiliar with the term, is when you make public statements designed to make society think you possess a virtue when you actually do not. GM could virtue signal in a press conference about how they care
about the workers, yet are shutting plants down.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Koda View Post
I have found that big corporations have, through cost cutting, eliminated any sort of "good treatment" to their employees...
Having laws to legislate common sense and morality seems to be the way in the post-Christian societies. If that's the way it's done now, I'd like to see a law that requires corporations to meet their social obligations to all in return for the advantages given them in their charters.

1/3 of the profit should go to employees as bonuses beyond their pay, 1/3 should go to managers and owners, 1/3 should be retained to do or buy whatever is needed to stay competitive.
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Old January 13th, 2019, 12:11 AM
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[QUOTE=Koda;1147456]I have found that big corporations have, through cost cutting, eliminated any sort of "good treatment" to their employees, yet they are absolutely shocked and horribly hurt when you do not give them unconditional love in return.

Absolutely! I also think that most of the young millennial's are going to pt a hole in all the corporations pockets. The hard working class has gone, our generation is still hard working, not as much as my parents generation, close thou. However, were getting closer to retirement now to.
Many of us will probably retire around the age of 60, unless we want to continue working for something to do.
It is going to be interesting to watch, and I hope we see it. All the corporations and share holders having to sell off due to labour staff shortages and poor quality of workmanship.
It has started in Canada already with this generation.
Now that pot is legal here in Canada, this generation is going to become increasingly relaxed. Hard work won't be their priority haha.
I'm looking forward to see, this generation give them what they have coming to them, in spades. The new workers coming into the country will soon figure out, man why are we the only ones doing this for next to nothing.
Hold on GM, mexico won't be an easy ride to riches in the coming years.
To all the hard working men, woman and families working in the Oshawa Plant and other in the U.S.A Plants, let this sinking ship go down corporately, take this time to remain healthy and hold your families close together .
Their will be much better ahead after these stressful times!

Eric
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Old January 13th, 2019, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by VC455 View Post
Having laws to legislate common sense and morality seems to be the way in the post-Christian societies. If that's the way it's done now, I'd like to see a law that requires corporations to meet their social obligations to all in return for the advantages given them in their charters.

1/3 of the profit should go to employees as bonuses beyond their pay, 1/3 should go to managers and owners, 1/3 should be retained to do or buy whatever is needed to stay competitive.
Companies/corporations "public relations departments" will tell you (social obligations and advantages granted)....."we are not required to do that".

1/3, 1/3,1/3 is an "old school" idea. 1/2 of the profits reinvested in the company, 1/2 the profits divided among workers, shareholders/owners and management is another variation.

Unfortunately "Executives" have negotiated "golden parachutes" and benefit packages that are paid out whether there is a profit or not. "Executive teams" are rewarded with bonuses by exceeding benchmarks........examples would be the stock price increases 5 %, units produced/sold increased 3 %, customer complaints were reduced reduced 2%. Again, this has nothing related to making a profit.


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Old January 13th, 2019, 06:10 AM
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From what the current CEO of GM says, the company is to use the savings from the plant closings to invest in Electric Vehicle (EV) and Autonomous Vehicles (Self-Driving). Both of these vehicle types were pushed, required, and funded by Federal & State regulations, and and projects accelerated while politicians had free reign of GM (Government Motors) - setting the long term goals of the company to produce solely EV & AV vehicles.
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Old January 13th, 2019, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by edzolz View Post
I have a Buick Encore 2018 model. Made in China.
Close, but not quite. The Buick Encore sold in the U.S. is made in South Korea. Buick Encores ARE assembled in China, but those are sold only in China.
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Old January 13th, 2019, 04:44 PM
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I just ordered a new power window switch for one of our Pontiac G8's , The plastic clip has broke, yet the whole assembly needed to be replaced haha. Anyway, Taking about the Buick Encore being made in Korea, I paid premium prices for the Delco power window, mirror and power window assembly made in Korea.
Again, I really hope to see the day, "The Heartbeat Of America - G.M" branded vehicles and its shareholders go to zero in a heartbeat around the world.
I love my Oldsmobile's and Pontiac's, I will never relate to them as being GM.
My vehicles are referred to as U.S.A built Oldsmobile's and Australian built Holden, Pontiac's. Built by the heartbeat of dedicated hard working, men, woman and families combined for my enjoyment and satisfaction.
My 2 Ford F-150's have been great, I can't complain about them yet haha.

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Old January 13th, 2019, 06:21 PM
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After the Bailout, all display properties went Atlanta. Around 750 semi loads. All that was made in Michigan for the shows and we had the GM account just got screwed. They screwed their own state, and the people, I’ll never buy GM again.
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Old January 14th, 2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Burd View Post
After the Bailout, all display properties went Atlanta. Around 750 semi loads. All that was made in Michigan for the shows and we had the GM account just got screwed. They screwed their own state, and the people, Iíll never buy GM again.
Which house were you at? George P? My wife worked for GM SPO in the Shows & Events group. She wasn't happy when the contracts were shifted to another company.
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Old January 14th, 2019, 01:27 PM
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I just got my son a 2018 Camaro RS with a 3.6L V6 and an 8 speed auto. Its cramped inside but no worse than a Mustang. IDK how well it will age but for now it drives great. Stops and handles really well and honestly is quicker than I expected or he needs since its his 1st car. Also, if the on board displays are to be believed it gets good gas millage. Styling wise i like it but don't love it. He loves it. Also, I got it for a year end type deal so it was comparatively cheap for a new car. Well under $30K.

side note - I told him, to be clear, my car is still the nicest car at the house. He tells me depends what your priorities are. Effing kids.

Last edited by droptopron; January 14th, 2019 at 01:30 PM. Reason: add comment
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Old January 14th, 2019, 04:19 PM
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My Challenger has plenty of room, somewhat useable back seat and good size trunk, the Camaro has neither. The AWD works very well, something neither the Camaro or Mustang offer. The 3.6/8 spd is quick, high 14's quarter mile and is also good on gas. It gets 35 mpg on the highway, 20 mpg even with winter town driving.
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Old January 14th, 2019, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jaunty75 View Post
Close, but not quite. The Buick Encore sold in the U.S. is made in South Korea. Buick Encores ARE assembled in China, but those are sold only in China.
Most companies do that. My plant makes Highlanders for everywhere in the world EXCEPT China, and there is a China plant to make them, in China, for Chinese consumption. The Chinese
insist on owning 50% of a corporation by the government, so I think it's a limited risk thing of running an entirely separate thing there.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by weezer View Post
which house were you at? George p? My wife worked for gm spo in the shows & events group. She wasn't happy when the contracts were shifted to another company.



gpj.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403 View Post
My Challenger has plenty of room, somewhat useable back seat and good size trunk, the Camaro has neither. The AWD works very well, something neither the Camaro or Mustang offer. The 3.6/8 spd is quick, high 14's quarter mile and is also good on gas. It gets 35 mpg on the highway, 20 mpg even with winter town driving.
IMO comparing the Challenger to the Camaro or Mustang is comparing apples to oranges. The Challenger is a much bigger, heavier car. I've read that most Challengers are 4,000+ lbs where my son's Camaro is well under 3,400. Its nice that the Challenger has an AWD option. Both the Mustang and Camaro will handle and stop better, and Motor Trend (maybe C&D?) timed a V6 Auto Camaro @ 13.8 sec in the quarter.

Side note - the Camaro also has a pretty big trunk but a tiny opening.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 01:36 PM
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But the Camaro is ugly!!
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Old January 15th, 2019, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by matt69olds View Post
But the Camaro is ugly!!
Still cannot understand why the 'retro' Camaro was called that when it was anything but a retro design, unlike the retro designed Mustang and Challenger.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 01:51 PM
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Between the 3 I’d take a Camaro. The challenger is just too close to the orig. it’s a ripoff.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by matt69olds View Post
But the Camaro is ugly!!
Yes, yes it is.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Burd View Post
Between the 3 Iíd take a Camaro. The challenger is just too close to the orig. itís a ripoff.

thats because the looks of old iron is much more appealing than anything being made today. Give me rip-off good looks over ugly original anytime!!!
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Old January 15th, 2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Burd View Post
Between the 3 Iíd take a Camaro. The challenger is just too close to the orig. itís a ripoff.
Yes, it is. Modern styling is mostly horrendous and obviously done by the blind, so yeah I will drive something that looks good. I will take a Pentastar V6 any day over a Slant 6 or 318 original for that matter.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 04:50 PM
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I just sold my 2013 Challenger 4 weeks ago with 130,000 miles, not one thing wrong with it to the first guy that came over to look at the car. 10 minutes later he was on his way back to Houston and texted me and said he never thought it would preform as well for a 10K car and no issues. ( of course us gear-heads take care of anything that has a motor in it!) Paid 25K new so for 6 years and 130,000 miles I'm very satisfied and got 10K back. FYI- I listed here and crickets. Went out before during the Holiday's a bought a new Chrysler 300S with Beats Sound system, Pentstar V6 with an 8 speed trans.-love it.
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Old Yesterday, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by anthonyP View Post
Still cannot understand why the 'retro' Camaro was called that when it was anything but a retro design, unlike the retro designed Mustang and Challenger.
While not a straight retro design, its def influenced by the 69 Overall I think its a nice looking sporty car, but there are aspects of the styling I don't care for. My son loved it.
His is an RS so the styling isn't over the top. Its more subdued
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Old Yesterday, 08:09 AM
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All new cars are fugly, and I'll never own anything with a touch screen or all the nanny electronics. I had a Challenger rental car last year (with a Hemi, actually) and of all the rental cars I've driven recently, that one was closest to something I felt comfortable in, but it still looks like a bloated lump next to an original. The newest car I own is a 1985, and while my current truck is a 1999, I'm putting together an 86 to replace it (the 99 has nearly 300K miles on it). The human factors design on new cars just sucks. I've even lucked into two BMW rentals recently (both in L.A.) and getting into one for the first time ever, in the dark, after a long plane ride, well, my immediate reaction was WTF! Nothing is intuitive as far as the controls are concerned. To me, that is NOT conducive to safe driving. No thanks.
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Old Yesterday, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by droptopron View Post
While not a straight retro design, its def influenced by the 69 Overall I think its a nice looking sporty car, but there are aspects of the styling I don't care for. My son loved it.
His is an RS so the styling isn't over the top. Its more subdued
Oddly, the head designer at GM at the time said in an interview that he owns a 1969 Z28, and told his designers he did not want the retro Camaro to look like a '69 Camaro except for the roof line and faux vents before the rear wheel wells - even going so far as to have one designer style the front section and another the rear section.
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Old Yesterday, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by anthonyP View Post
Oddly, the head designer at GM at the time said in an interview that he owns a 1969 Z28, and told his designers he did not want the retro Camaro to look like a '69 Camaro except for the roof line and faux vents before the rear wheel wells - even going so far as to have one designer style the front section and another the rear section.
He had a write up in HMM on his sort of COPO tribute 69 Camaro. The same guy designed both the 5th & 6th Gen.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/articl...vrolet-camaro/
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Old Yesterday, 10:42 AM
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We own a 2007 Mustang GT premium, 5 spd/ 355 gears with 14k miles on it currently as a DD. Its actually the wifes car and the Cutlass is mine. It replaced a 2006 that had only 70k basically trouble free miles that got totaled. Its a very nice car with more than enough power for her. The Mustangs were bought for nostalgic reasons as the S197's were the closest Ford has come to replicating the 67/68 Fastbacks. I owned a 68 GT Fastback when we first got married 39 years ago. She had the choice as it was her car. She was not comfortable driving the Challenger nor the Camaro as both she felt were hard to see out of. I personally liked the Challenger, however the car was not for me. The Mustang has power windows and a shaker 500 stereo. The amount of electronics even in a low optioned car is mind boggling compared to the Cutlass.

I believe when interest rates get to the point that it drives a lack of interest in the newer offerings, the cars will get much simpler and less expensive.
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