twilightblue28A

Please look at the photograph of the attached trim tag and let's compare the trim tag to the physical car. The trim tag is for a 1970 Oldsmobile 442. The number is ''70
344670E____267. The paint code, at least to me, identifies code 20 and no convertible top code. I'm confused. The trim tag only has three (3) digits for a body code? And, no convertible top color code?

Now the car. The car is painted twilightblue, white convertible top, and blue bucket seats.
I may be paranoid, but something looks wrong.....
Has anyone seen a Linden car with a three digit body code?
Also, the paint code should be 28A. I'm reading paint code 20, and as described above, no convertible top color code?
Admittedly, I may not be seeing the paint code correctly? And, please look at the rivets. Anything making any sense?
I am open to continuing education. I hope you can help. Thank you!!

hurst68olds

due to the non-factory rivets - it appears the tag has been removed from a car at some point
there will be single-digit 1970 NJ 34467 bodies 1-9, two-digit bodies 10-99, three-digit bodies 100-999, etc.

PNT 20 B = "AZURE BLUE" body with "BLACK" top

Is there a VIN for the above tag that you can share?

twilightblue28A

Yes I will post the Vin number. Please give me a few minutes.
If I understand your response, it is possible for a Linden car to have one, two or three digit bodies.

​​​​​​The paint code makes no sense .Azure blue is 20 but no convertible top color?

And, the car is being represented as originally twilightblue.

That physical interior is currently blue.

Thanks. I'll post the Vin shortly.

jaunty75

A31 indicates power windows. Does the car have that?

Azure Blue is light blue, while twilight blue is dark. But certainly the car could have been painted at some point and the top replaced with a different color. My '67 Delta 88 convertible was born as a 1967 "Spring Special," meaning yellow paint, yellow top, and yellow interior. It's now red with a black top and a brown interior. The change to the top and interior were done before I acquired the car in 2009. I had the repaint in red done in 2014 because the car needed repainting one way or another, and I liked red better. How long have you had the car? How much do you know about its history?

Yes, the cowl tag rivets look too new and in too good a shape to be original. However, it may be that someone removed it just to restore it and repaint it and then reattached it.

As asked, what is the VIN? Assuming that the VIN plate is still in place, that'll tell you if the car is an original 442.

jaunty75

The top color IS given! As hurst68 noted, it's the B just to the left of the PNT on the right side of the tag, and B means black top. These paint codes weren't always neatly spaced on these tags.

My '67 Delta has a three-digit body number. It was made in Lansing, not Linden, but it is a three-digit number, and I've not infrequently seen body tags with body numbers less than six digits.

hurst68olds

if you look closely at the tag ** 20 BPNT

here's an early LINDEN hardtop ** 15 BDY ---- with no build week stamping

twilightblue28A

The VIN is difficult to read from the dash. The window sticker identifies the car being twilightblue with a white convertible top and the trim is 32. The trim tag and window sticker are not consistent.

jaunty75

Does the VIN on the window sticker match the VIN on the car? What really matters is the VIN. If you can't take a good photo of it, can you at least tell us what it says. From what I can see in that photo, it looks like it begins 344, which would indicate 442.

I will say that the window sticker looks as too good to be true as the body tag. It's in too-good a shape, even if it were original. No one removed those from a car window back then and had them come off as cleanly and in as good a shape as the one you're showing. There's not a single wrinkle or tear in it. It looks like it was printed with a dot-matrix printer that were so common 20 years ago. It doens't look like the typeface typically seen. Also, shouldn't it be in color? Shouldn't the little rocket Oldsmobile logos running up and down on each side be in red? Maybe they are in red on your sticker, I can't tell for sure. But certainly the typeface looks wrong.

Here's a '700 442 window sticker for a holiday coupe, and it looks much more like what a window sticker should look like.

Overall, the situation doesn't pass the smell test. The car may very well be a 442 if the VIN tag is untampered with, but someone has repainted it and replaced the top with one of a different color, and they're apparently trying to make it look like the car was born with its current color scheme.

twilightblue28A

I am sorry. I see the "B" top color. The body tag is Azure Blue with a black convertible top. The physical car is twilight blue with a white convertible top with blue interior. The window sticker ties into the cars colors, but not the body tag. We also need to compare the VIN number that is physically on the car to the window sticker to confirm that the car .is really a 244 car. Still doesn't explain the window sticker and the body tag being inconsistent. And, I thought this only occurs on W cars!

twilightblue28A

hi Jaunty,

Thanks for the sticker. I agree that the types styles are different.
Also, I think factory air conditioning in my '70 listed for $475.00.

​​​​I'll check the physical VIN and report. I. Can't wait for the "story!"

I apologize for missing the top code.
Thank you

twilightblue28A

I will check the VIN numbers on the engine and transmission and compare to the VIN number. This will be interesting.
Either way, the seller is not being honest with an inconsistant body tag and window aticker. And, that assumes the car is a 344 and not moved from a Cutlass.
Too bad for honest sellers and really bad for unsuspecting buyers.
The seller has a binder of restoration photographs. Interesting.

twilightblue28A

The VIN is 344670E118488!!

jaunty75

The VIN translates to a 1970 442 convertible built at Linden, New Jersey. Assuming that's the original VIN plate, the car IS a 442.

I'm no expert, but I think that's a fake Window sticker. I wouldn't assume that it's a testament to the authenticity of anything. That, along with the apparently tampered-with body tag, makes it appear that someone is trying to get away with something. But it's hard to see why. If the VIN tag is correct, the car is a 442 convertible, and it's all that's needed to prove that it's a real 442. Why would someone change the body tag only to have it show the wrong colors? If you're going to fabricate one, why not put the correct codes on it so as not to raise suspicion?

Maybe the simplest explanation is correct. The car is a 442 where someone has painted it a different color and put on a different-color top. This sort of thing happens. The owner has tried to increase the perceived originality of the car, so as to increase its value, by making a new window sticker that matches the car's current color and is hoping that people won't inspect the body tag or won't know how to to translate the codes on it.

BangScreech4-4-2

Back when I thought I was going to show my car a lot I had a window sticker dummied up from some guy on E-Bay. Turned out real nice -- looks a lot like Twilight Blue 28A's.

twilightblue28A

Hi Jaunty,
It makes no sense. It makes me concerned what else is being concealed, and what else is wrong with the car. The seller has a complete binder of the restoration. I will check the engine and transmission numbers to verify whether the engine and transmission match. Either way I will ask for an explanation. We can agree that the car can't be two colors with two different color convertible tops concurrently.
A friend sent an email that his car, '70, has a build date the third week of August with a VIN of 105xxx. The car I'm looking at was built the second week of October with the VIN 118xxx. That means the Oldsmobile built 13,000 between August and October?? Twelve cars per hour for 42 days??
It's too bad this happens on 442's. Not good for us and just imagine an unsuspecting buyer. I was always suspicious on W cars. Now 442's!!

twilightblue28A

Was your trim tag similar to the trim tag and the rivets shown in the photograph? And was your cars colors on your window sticker consistent with the colors on your cars body tag? I mean this respectfully. Thank you.

twilightblue28A

I'm sorry. I see the B now. Thanks!

jaunty75

A couple of comments.

1. Twelve cars per hour for 42 days is not at all unreasonable, but I wouldn't put too much stock in trying to match production rate with assembly dates. Serial numbers began with 100001 for A-body cars (and all cars, for that matter) at all assembly plants that year. Were your friend's car and your car built at the same plant? If not, there is zero correlation between his serial number and yours.
2. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. We've already established that the body tag is suspect based on the color codes, the non-correct rivets, and its too-good condition. The fact that the build date on it might be suspect, too, doesn't add much to the discussion. We've already established that the documentation on this car is suspect. Just HOW suspect it is doesn't matter any more. Even without the build date problem, it's already been shown to be a car that anyone looking for an authentic 442 should walk away from. Or be able to buy for a considerable discount off the value of a true 442 with correct documentation.

Remember that this car IS a true 442 based on the VIN, but someone is trying to pass it off as having a different original color than the body tag shows. But you're right to be suspect about most anything else about the car or the claims the seller makes.

You never did answer one question I had early on, not that you're required to. Your body tag's A31 code means that the car should have power windows. Does it? Not that this proves anything if it does as we've already shown that other codes are inaccurate, but I'm just curious.

twilightblue28A

Hi Jaunty,

1.My friend's car is a New Jersey car designated E and;
2.The window sticker identifies A31 power windows. The physical car is also equipped with power windows. The window sticker and the body tag are both posted, although they may be hard to read.

We can't rely on the window sticker or the body tag because of the discrepancies identified.

BangScreech4-4-2

I'm not sure what you mean, but I'll certainly answer your questions:

1) My data plate and rivets appear to be original.
2) My car was originally Sable with a white top. A prior owner re-painted it Scarlet. Given that Sable = brown, I see no reason to change it back. The window sticker documents the car as originally equipped, but makes no mention of paint color.

Hope this helps.

twilightblue28A

Yes. And I appreciate your help. Thank you!

rand5204

For what it's worth, I have a Linden built 70 442 convertible as well. It's a 10A car so that it was built the week before the one you are looking at. Mine has a body number of 244 and yours is 267. That interval makes sense to me. I will need to compare the vin on mine to see if that interval looks similar as well.

lunaboy

Looks like he repainted that less appealing Azure blue 442; but more importantly, he is trying to pass it off as a RARE Factory W25 Convertible with the apparently suspect window sticker.

No build sheet = No factory W25 OAI HOOD CONV.

My bet is the existing Hood is good steel bottom reproduction at best.