Fitech on 403 issues
May 8th, 2017, 03:59 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Denmark
Posts: 26
Fitech on 403 issues
Hi guys
Installed a Fitech GoEfi 4 on my 403, have been driving it for 2-300 miles so far, but getting annoyed that it seems to keep leaning out no matter what i do.
The issues on hand,
When going from idle to WOT bad lack of fuel, A/F hits 20, 1-2 seconds later it takes of like a maniac.
Going from idle to easy drive, no problem.
Going from coach to 5-10% pedal, again miss fuel, A/F 17-18 and half a second later stabilizes and run perfect.
Going from coach to WOT is the worst, it almost stalls for 2-3 seconds, puffing and then takes of like a maniac.
I have adjusted several things on the unit,
Accel and fast accel.
DFCO on and off MAP (would only affect coach to throttle)
Did not mess with the A/F ratios, since it stabilize and runs great after this happens.
It seems to help for a few trips, then the problem comes back, so i am thinking if it learns and then going against my settings?
I tried contacting Fitech, but support is not the best, either a half answer, or none at all.
Using in tank pump, no FCC, since that seems to make gasoline boil, and that issue was evident when i bought my unit.
I read about people disabling DFCO and enrichen the mixture on all settings, but then i guess it would be popping on deccel.
Anybody here found a workarround for this issue?
Installed a Fitech GoEfi 4 on my 403, have been driving it for 2-300 miles so far, but getting annoyed that it seems to keep leaning out no matter what i do.
The issues on hand,
When going from idle to WOT bad lack of fuel, A/F hits 20, 1-2 seconds later it takes of like a maniac.
Going from idle to easy drive, no problem.
Going from coach to 5-10% pedal, again miss fuel, A/F 17-18 and half a second later stabilizes and run perfect.
Going from coach to WOT is the worst, it almost stalls for 2-3 seconds, puffing and then takes of like a maniac.
I have adjusted several things on the unit,
Accel and fast accel.
DFCO on and off MAP (would only affect coach to throttle)
Did not mess with the A/F ratios, since it stabilize and runs great after this happens.
It seems to help for a few trips, then the problem comes back, so i am thinking if it learns and then going against my settings?
I tried contacting Fitech, but support is not the best, either a half answer, or none at all.
Using in tank pump, no FCC, since that seems to make gasoline boil, and that issue was evident when i bought my unit.
I read about people disabling DFCO and enrichen the mixture on all settings, but then i guess it would be popping on deccel.
Anybody here found a workarround for this issue?
May 8th, 2017, 06:39 AM
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Rogues Island, USA
Posts: 3,613
Sounds like the problem is with the accelerator pump side of things. I know nothing about FiTechs or how this is handled by the unit.
Does it have a throttle position switch and is it working correctly or even set correctly? What you're describing is a flat spot and the numbers back that up on the A/F ratio. When you stab it the A/F jumps to way lean which makes sense since you are quickly opening the throttle blades and letting a huge gulp or air in. Without the compliment of fuel added to that gulp of air you get those numbers. Carbs use an accelerator pump to compensate, what does the FiTech use?
Most FI use the same type components to run things properly. This chart might help.
Determines the mass of air entering the engine
Coolant Temperature Sensor
Tells ECU when the engine is at optimum operating temperature
Oxygen Sensor
Determines amount of oxygen in exhaust, adjusts accordingly
Throttle Position Sensor
Monitors position of throttle valve and adjusts fuel rate based on reading
Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor
Monitors pressure of air coming into the engine to gauge amount of power being produced
Engine Speed Sensor
Senses engine speed, which helps determine how long to keep fuel injectors open to dispense fuel
Does it have a throttle position switch and is it working correctly or even set correctly? What you're describing is a flat spot and the numbers back that up on the A/F ratio. When you stab it the A/F jumps to way lean which makes sense since you are quickly opening the throttle blades and letting a huge gulp or air in. Without the compliment of fuel added to that gulp of air you get those numbers. Carbs use an accelerator pump to compensate, what does the FiTech use?
Most FI use the same type components to run things properly. This chart might help.
Sensor
Function
Airflow Sensor Determines the mass of air entering the engine
Coolant Temperature Sensor
Tells ECU when the engine is at optimum operating temperature
Oxygen Sensor
Determines amount of oxygen in exhaust, adjusts accordingly
Throttle Position Sensor
Monitors position of throttle valve and adjusts fuel rate based on reading
Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor
Monitors pressure of air coming into the engine to gauge amount of power being produced
Engine Speed Sensor
Senses engine speed, which helps determine how long to keep fuel injectors open to dispense fuel
May 8th, 2017, 07:05 AM
#3
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Denmark
Posts: 26
Fitech use Accel pump and Fast Accel as a carbs accelerator pump, just made by software due to the nature of EFI.
I maxed out the accel pump setup, worked great on the first couple of trips, but something in the unit software compensate and give me a huge flatspot (lean condition) from the mentioned conditions.
Then i removed the fuel pressure regulator vacuum-hose to maintain 58 Psi during all conditions, it helped for a few trips, until the software made some other adjustments, and the problem came back
The most strange thing is i dont see any rich conditions when doing these adjustments to the unit, would think it should when i bump the pressure and it learned the fuel map with variating pressures.
The problem is not adjusting these things, the problem is the darn thing compensate for this change over time, if it measure a rich condition the learning take it leaner and save that data, over time the problem increase, so i am probably overlooking some parameter to make it understand i want rich condition during transition from idle or coach to any throttle-movement.
Throttle is based on potentio-value, not a switch.
I know what the different parts do, i was looking for experience with this unit, since the web tell the same story, but i have not found a useful solution to the problem yet.
I maxed out the accel pump setup, worked great on the first couple of trips, but something in the unit software compensate and give me a huge flatspot (lean condition) from the mentioned conditions.
Then i removed the fuel pressure regulator vacuum-hose to maintain 58 Psi during all conditions, it helped for a few trips, until the software made some other adjustments, and the problem came back
The most strange thing is i dont see any rich conditions when doing these adjustments to the unit, would think it should when i bump the pressure and it learned the fuel map with variating pressures.
The problem is not adjusting these things, the problem is the darn thing compensate for this change over time, if it measure a rich condition the learning take it leaner and save that data, over time the problem increase, so i am probably overlooking some parameter to make it understand i want rich condition during transition from idle or coach to any throttle-movement.
Throttle is based on potentio-value, not a switch.
I know what the different parts do, i was looking for experience with this unit, since the web tell the same story, but i have not found a useful solution to the problem yet.
Last edited by TBT_DK; May 8th, 2017 at 07:11 AM.
May 8th, 2017, 02:39 PM
#4
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Fl
Posts: 7,827
Oh but wait a minute guys, isn't this system "Self tuning"?. "You just drive it and it tunes itself", right? BS. Maybe now some of you won't believe everything you read.
Try accessing the requested air/fuel table. In the area of high load/low rpm look for a setting that may be overly lean, i.e. 15.0 or higher. If so set it to 12.0:1 or so.
When you blip the throttle that creates a high load/low rpm condition, even if for a split second. Considering the system is commanded to hit the desired air/fuel at any and all given points, and it's wrong for the condition, then you'll get what you're getting and drivability will suffer. The ECM will try to hit that commanded target air/fuel, even when you "max out" on the acceleration tables. If that doesn't fix it then you may have a faulty MAP sensor or connection.
And I'm not surprised to hear their tech dept sucks, I've heard that before.
But it's cheap guys so it's ok right?
Maybe now some of you will believe what I've been saying for years, the "self tuning" systems aren't what they're advertised to be, plain and simple.
Try accessing the requested air/fuel table. In the area of high load/low rpm look for a setting that may be overly lean, i.e. 15.0 or higher. If so set it to 12.0:1 or so.
When you blip the throttle that creates a high load/low rpm condition, even if for a split second. Considering the system is commanded to hit the desired air/fuel at any and all given points, and it's wrong for the condition, then you'll get what you're getting and drivability will suffer. The ECM will try to hit that commanded target air/fuel, even when you "max out" on the acceleration tables. If that doesn't fix it then you may have a faulty MAP sensor or connection.
And I'm not surprised to hear their tech dept sucks, I've heard that before.
But it's cheap guys so it's ok right?
Maybe now some of you will believe what I've been saying for years, the "self tuning" systems aren't what they're advertised to be, plain and simple.
Last edited by cutlassefi; May 8th, 2017 at 02:59 PM.
May 9th, 2017, 04:47 AM
#6
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Denmark
Posts: 26
Oh but wait a minute guys, isn't this system "Self tuning"?. "You just drive it and it tunes itself", right? BS. Maybe now some of you won't believe everything you read.
Try accessing the requested air/fuel table. In the area of high load/low rpm look for a setting that may be overly lean, i.e. 15.0 or higher. If so set it to 12.0:1 or so.
When you blip the throttle that creates a high load/low rpm condition, even if for a split second. Considering the system is commanded to hit the desired air/fuel at any and all given points, and it's wrong for the condition, then you'll get what you're getting and drivability will suffer. The ECM will try to hit that commanded target air/fuel, even when you "max out" on the acceleration tables. If that doesn't fix it then you may have a faulty MAP sensor or connection.
And I'm not surprised to hear their tech dept sucks, I've heard that before.
But it's cheap guys so it's ok right?
Maybe now some of you will believe what I've been saying for years, the "self tuning" systems aren't what they're advertised to be, plain and simple.
Try accessing the requested air/fuel table. In the area of high load/low rpm look for a setting that may be overly lean, i.e. 15.0 or higher. If so set it to 12.0:1 or so.
When you blip the throttle that creates a high load/low rpm condition, even if for a split second. Considering the system is commanded to hit the desired air/fuel at any and all given points, and it's wrong for the condition, then you'll get what you're getting and drivability will suffer. The ECM will try to hit that commanded target air/fuel, even when you "max out" on the acceleration tables. If that doesn't fix it then you may have a faulty MAP sensor or connection.
And I'm not surprised to hear their tech dept sucks, I've heard that before.
But it's cheap guys so it's ok right?
Maybe now some of you will believe what I've been saying for years, the "self tuning" systems aren't what they're advertised to be, plain and simple.
I read a lot of reviews on this "fitech" prior to ordering it last year, seemed then like people loved these units, but i have since learned that everybody struggle with the accel, fast or slow hesitation.
Map is working, and have been playing with different settings for fuel cut and prime, but it makes sense to me now that it would overrule anything to get on target A/F, and i can see the "learning" leaning out when i ask it to increase accelshot, because it get a rich condition prior to snap the throttle.
Thanks for this usefull answer!
Last edited by TBT_DK; May 9th, 2017 at 04:50 AM.
May 9th, 2017, 06:17 AM
#7
Rodney
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,321
TBT DK:
You should be able to set the base-line, off-idle A/F ratio by adjusting the 1100_45kPa setting in the hand held controller. If this setting is too lean could explain why you're maxing out the Accel_Pump setting. I'm no EFI expert but I have been following the pains of the FITech early adopters. I'm more of a 2.0 guy that doesn't enjoy beta testing for the manufacture.
HTH
You should be able to set the base-line, off-idle A/F ratio by adjusting the 1100_45kPa setting in the hand held controller. If this setting is too lean could explain why you're maxing out the Accel_Pump setting. I'm no EFI expert but I have been following the pains of the FITech early adopters. I'm more of a 2.0 guy that doesn't enjoy beta testing for the manufacture.
HTH
May 9th, 2017, 03:02 PM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 204
Having dealt personally with a fitech unit with the same issues, make sure you have your timing set properly and your IAC steps set correctly before makinf all sort of stab in the dark adjustments. See the instructions on this link.
http://fitechefi.com/tech-posts/fite...-instructions/
Once you have your timing set right, no exhaust leaks before the O2 sensor and IAC steps in the right range (car i worked on liked the IAC closer to 3 when warm), do some driving and the rest should tune itself pretty well. Your bog issues will likely be gone.
http://fitechefi.com/tech-posts/fite...-instructions/
Once you have your timing set right, no exhaust leaks before the O2 sensor and IAC steps in the right range (car i worked on liked the IAC closer to 3 when warm), do some driving and the rest should tune itself pretty well. Your bog issues will likely be gone.
May 10th, 2017, 01:47 AM
#9
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Denmark
Posts: 26
Having dealt personally with a fitech unit with the same issues, make sure you have your timing set properly and your IAC steps set correctly before makinf all sort of stab in the dark adjustments. See the instructions on this link.
http://fitechefi.com/tech-posts/fite...-instructions/
Once you have your timing set right, no exhaust leaks before the O2 sensor and IAC steps in the right range (car i worked on liked the IAC closer to 3 when warm), do some driving and the rest should tune itself pretty well. Your bog issues will likely be gone.
http://fitechefi.com/tech-posts/fite...-instructions/
Once you have your timing set right, no exhaust leaks before the O2 sensor and IAC steps in the right range (car i worked on liked the IAC closer to 3 when warm), do some driving and the rest should tune itself pretty well. Your bog issues will likely be gone.
May 10th, 2017, 05:08 AM
#10
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Edmond, OK
Posts: 15,890
That's a bummer that the FiTech unit isn't working properly. 
I have considered a fuel injection swap and even considered FiTech. It seems that if you have to troubleshoot like this for a "self learning" fuel injection system then you might as well stick with a carburetor.
I hope you can figure it out. Good luck.
I have considered a fuel injection swap and even considered FiTech. It seems that if you have to troubleshoot like this for a "self learning" fuel injection system then you might as well stick with a carburetor.
I hope you can figure it out. Good luck.
May 12th, 2017, 04:45 AM
#12
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Denmark
Posts: 26
1100_45Kpa is moved back to 13.6 where it was set from factory.
Before i reset it though, i did try setting the fuel cut to 10, so it would not cut fuel on coach, then no lean condition on coach, (which was ok when cutting fuel) but no change in the lean when easing in to throttle again.
Think i would do a full reset of learn data, readjust all settings, and work from there, because i now get a WOT A/F @ 10.5 but still way to lean when the blades open, then way rich, and then stabilize @12.5, so it seems things are working, just not fast enough.
Either the ECU is to slow to read the changes in throttle-position, or the communication with the TPS at fault i guess.
Was it then only from coach to WOT i could live with it, but going lean every time you touch the pedal (2-3%) after coach, is annoying.
August 6th, 2017, 11:07 PM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3
Finally found someone with exactly the same Issues.
Issues;
1. From Idle to WOT engine I can kill the engine by keeping it WOT. Leans out, issue also exist at cuise when going WOT really fast i.e. stomp the pedal.
2. From coach to cruise, leans out pretty bad, disabling decel fuel cut solved this pretty good, could not get it cured doing anything else.
3. The ecu "self learns" stupid rich WOT AFR's even if I set the target at 13, it will enrichen untill engine starts to miss at 10. I cured this by limiting max learn enrichment.
I have a pretty good experience with aftermarket fuel injection systems, I've buillt and tuned dozens of engines naturally aspirated, supercharged or turbocharged so I know what different parts or parameters atleast should be doing. I've also been very skeptic about any "self tuning" system's, but fitech seemed like a having quite a few smart innovations specially regarding atomization and components. I was certainly not expecting standalone performance from cheapass efi. Previous systems I've had have been autronic, vipec, Link and ecumaster.
I tried setting the base pulsewidht higher or lower, that's the "CID" so I've tried from 350cid to 454cid on my 396cid engine. I also run e85 and setting 390cid ended running suprisingly spot on regarding afr's so the baseline is pretty darn rich.
I would be delighted with some insight into this, from the country of origin knowledge seems to be very limited which only brings me to think that they must be happy for a lot less than me, I wan't it to run right 100% in all conditions, that's kinda the thing going with fuel injection.
And yes I've done everything with the accel enrichment settings. Maxing out won't fix it, leaning will make it worse.
Edit; I'm running a 5speed manual and pretty long gears, most of the guys seem to run automatic's with short gears so the engine lives constantly at a higher rpm where the problem is not that bad. Mine runs 80% of the time between 1000-2000rpm where the issue is at it's worst. I drive it daily and also alot on highway so light load and transition manners are essential.
Issues;
1. From Idle to WOT engine I can kill the engine by keeping it WOT. Leans out, issue also exist at cuise when going WOT really fast i.e. stomp the pedal.
2. From coach to cruise, leans out pretty bad, disabling decel fuel cut solved this pretty good, could not get it cured doing anything else.
3. The ecu "self learns" stupid rich WOT AFR's even if I set the target at 13, it will enrichen untill engine starts to miss at 10. I cured this by limiting max learn enrichment.
I have a pretty good experience with aftermarket fuel injection systems, I've buillt and tuned dozens of engines naturally aspirated, supercharged or turbocharged so I know what different parts or parameters atleast should be doing. I've also been very skeptic about any "self tuning" system's, but fitech seemed like a having quite a few smart innovations specially regarding atomization and components. I was certainly not expecting standalone performance from cheapass efi. Previous systems I've had have been autronic, vipec, Link and ecumaster.
I tried setting the base pulsewidht higher or lower, that's the "CID" so I've tried from 350cid to 454cid on my 396cid engine. I also run e85 and setting 390cid ended running suprisingly spot on regarding afr's so the baseline is pretty darn rich.
I would be delighted with some insight into this, from the country of origin knowledge seems to be very limited which only brings me to think that they must be happy for a lot less than me, I wan't it to run right 100% in all conditions, that's kinda the thing going with fuel injection.
And yes I've done everything with the accel enrichment settings. Maxing out won't fix it, leaning will make it worse.
Edit; I'm running a 5speed manual and pretty long gears, most of the guys seem to run automatic's with short gears so the engine lives constantly at a higher rpm where the problem is not that bad. Mine runs 80% of the time between 1000-2000rpm where the issue is at it's worst. I drive it daily and also alot on highway so light load and transition manners are essential.
Last edited by a.h.; August 7th, 2017 at 12:04 AM.
August 15th, 2017, 11:44 PM
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3
Fiddled with the fitech some more and here's the conclusion on my behalf.
Engine is 396cid Ford fe, all forged, fully built&ported by myself, 11:1 compression, around 420 scandinavian hp, 5 speed manual. CDI ignition,
fuel E85, no exhaust leaks, inline Bosch fuel pump 1ft from tank.
Issues & fixes
1. Going from idle or low rpm cruise to wot causing heavy lean flatspot
FIX; I set the base pulsewidht, that's controlled by selecting engine size, to 600cid on my 396cid engine, still had to almost max out accel enrichment settings, however now works quite right and no flatspot worth mentioning going from coach to cruise. Accel settings have relatively little effect unless you also increase decay time. Naturally some understanding of how efi accel enrichment works is required.
2. Fuel learning learns stupid rich AFR's on WOT regardless of target, setting target at 13.5(lean max) will end with 10. Learn works fine on part throttle. I also have a innovative broadband to verify afr readings. Most of the time fuel learn would hit learn max on WOT regardless of anything.
FIX; Since part throttle learn was always leaner than the base level, I limited the learn max to 1%, now with engine size set at 600cid I'm getting pretty solid 12.5:1 AFR on wot and the car pull's like a freightrain. avarage learn percentage I have now is 79% WOT being 100%(as limited to +1%) 3000-up
Conclusion;
Fitech is a great replacement for any carburettor and will deliver great ease of adjustment and on most cuisers will most likely perform fairly well right out of the box after inital settings. Value for the money is also extremely good.
However fitech is also very limited on some adjustments and since the system relies heavily on oxygen sensor it is also very vulnerable to sensor failures and other issues related to oxygen sensor operation, like exhaust leaks, missfires or moisture. I would actually recommend disabling the learn feature after some inital learning to prevent running issues due to sensor failure or some other sensor related issue. Naturally closed loop operation can still remain in use.
Will Fitech substitute a proper standalone engine management system? Under no circumstances it will not, but for a fraction of the price you cannot expect it to. It is a great system that has absolutely brilliant fuel atomization and all the necessary features to make an engine run good enough, but if you wan't fully mappable ecu you will have to look into some other products with completely different price tags.
So you get what you pay for. On my car I will most likely end up with standaalone ecu (as I always do) operating the fitech hardware at some point but for now I'm going to leave it as it is and just drive like I stole it.
Engine is 396cid Ford fe, all forged, fully built&ported by myself, 11:1 compression, around 420 scandinavian hp, 5 speed manual. CDI ignition,
fuel E85, no exhaust leaks, inline Bosch fuel pump 1ft from tank.
Issues & fixes
1. Going from idle or low rpm cruise to wot causing heavy lean flatspot
FIX; I set the base pulsewidht, that's controlled by selecting engine size, to 600cid on my 396cid engine, still had to almost max out accel enrichment settings, however now works quite right and no flatspot worth mentioning going from coach to cruise. Accel settings have relatively little effect unless you also increase decay time. Naturally some understanding of how efi accel enrichment works is required.
2. Fuel learning learns stupid rich AFR's on WOT regardless of target, setting target at 13.5(lean max) will end with 10. Learn works fine on part throttle. I also have a innovative broadband to verify afr readings. Most of the time fuel learn would hit learn max on WOT regardless of anything.
FIX; Since part throttle learn was always leaner than the base level, I limited the learn max to 1%, now with engine size set at 600cid I'm getting pretty solid 12.5:1 AFR on wot and the car pull's like a freightrain. avarage learn percentage I have now is 79% WOT being 100%(as limited to +1%) 3000-up
Conclusion;
Fitech is a great replacement for any carburettor and will deliver great ease of adjustment and on most cuisers will most likely perform fairly well right out of the box after inital settings. Value for the money is also extremely good.
However fitech is also very limited on some adjustments and since the system relies heavily on oxygen sensor it is also very vulnerable to sensor failures and other issues related to oxygen sensor operation, like exhaust leaks, missfires or moisture. I would actually recommend disabling the learn feature after some inital learning to prevent running issues due to sensor failure or some other sensor related issue. Naturally closed loop operation can still remain in use.
Will Fitech substitute a proper standalone engine management system? Under no circumstances it will not, but for a fraction of the price you cannot expect it to. It is a great system that has absolutely brilliant fuel atomization and all the necessary features to make an engine run good enough, but if you wan't fully mappable ecu you will have to look into some other products with completely different price tags.
So you get what you pay for. On my car I will most likely end up with standaalone ecu (as I always do) operating the fitech hardware at some point but for now I'm going to leave it as it is and just drive like I stole it.
September 19th, 2017, 05:00 AM
#15
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3
In the aftermath I ended with a proper aftermarket ecu afterall, I found myself constantly tinkering with the handheld trying to sort out the rich or lean bugs that persistently exist's with the fitech. Also found out that fitech AFR's are reading constantly way leaner than they really are. Confirmed this by installing another Innovative broadband and also swapping Oxygen sensor and also from collector to collector. FItech reads 10:1 AFR as 12:1, does the same with 2 different sensors, on both collectors.
This time went with the excellent european Ecumaster EMU Black. Once you've been introduced to proper engine management, you just can't live without it.
Still good value for the money, as ecumaster will control all the fitech hardware.
This time went with the excellent european Ecumaster EMU Black. Once you've been introduced to proper engine management, you just can't live without it.
Still good value for the money, as ecumaster will control all the fitech hardware.
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