The Stickman

Ok Carlisle Productions has changed the name of the GM Nationals to the Chevy Nationals. Now all other brands of GM are still welcome. But how welcome would you feel being at a Chevy show if you own something else? Now while I don't have an Oldsmobile in my stable any longer that is mostly because I am into Hearses now and not many of them made off of Olds chassis. But I have a Federal Cadillac, plus a Alberter Buick with Olds 350, and a Superior Sovereign 3way, So we would be welcome but it feels like they are excluding everyone. Would love to hear everyones thoughts.

m371961

I think it stinks. It is also stupid just to rename it. If the specialty vendors for Buick, Olds, Buick, Pontiac, and Caddy object, maybe they can make a difference, but I doubt it. Is Chrysler going to be Fiat weekend?
I would like to see a defunct makers weekend including American makers no longer in business. Just be neat to see autos from them together.

joe_padavano

Apparently the GM Nationals was too large and Carlisle Events is trying to make it even smaller by pissing off all the non-Chevy owners. Count me out.

MDchanic

This is odd.

Usually these sorts of decisions are made after consulting some sort of survey or focus group, which indicates a significant improvement in revenue after the change.

In this case, I can't see how changing the name would attract a significantly larger number of Chebby owners, but it's obvious that it will drive away the majority of B-O-P-C owners.

I wonder what they based the decision on.

- Eric

88 Cutty Classic

wonder if i can still bring my Rocket Powered Monte SS. lol. I hope it pisses off all the chevy cavemen.

btw

I'll get my BBQ guys together with their trailers, slaughter a few hogs and we can have the Rest of the GM Family Nationals at the Speed Shop. Bring your shotguns and we can have a genuine "Shoot the Chevy" Challenge.

rocketraider

It was only a matter of time. That event started life as Carlisle Camaro Nationals and seems it has come full circle.

To our own embarrassment the B-O-P-Cad folks didn't support it as well as we should have (except for the Riviera Owners' Association; hully moicy I bet they're pissed). I also wonder if GM itself had some hand in this, since Pontiac and Olds are no longer active GM Divisions.

A hardcore Chevy friend has even said doing this is a mistake. Doubt we'll make the 6 hour trek north any more. I can see all the heavily modified Camaro/Chevelle/Nova I want and then some locally. Face it- that's mostly what shows up at this event. Even the full-size Chevy owners didn't do much with it.

Oldsmaniac

I'm out, I have been going on and off since the beginning. Weather was so great last year I trailered my 442 there. I enjoyed the event seeing other Oldsmobiles and GM cars but never even looked at the Chevy's. They are everywhere, nothing new and pretty ho-hum... Happened to win the celebrity choice from MuscleCar review which was cool, (someone finally got it as far as the image I want to portray with my car). The Blue/Gray chapter and DVOC chapter together won coolest club award. I thought the event was a success for the non Chevy and Chevy attendees. I also had some good conversation with other Olds guys. So this year the Chevy guys can all massage each other at the event. Time will tell if the Carlisle management made the right decision.

Kennybill

I'm always amazed when a business does something like this. I'm always looking to see what auto shows/swap meets are out there just in case I'm wanting to take a trip. I like combining say a trip to Gettysburg with hitting a swap meet coming home. I wouldn't even consider a "Chevy" event but I would go to a GM car meet. They would be better off having no brand name. If I was in business, I wouldn't be political or have strong opinions one way or another. These actions alienate people which limits their ability to make money. "JMO" ha ha.

quaddriver

Im actually fairly well acquainted with 'carlisle mgmt' that made this decision and talked about it at length at fall...GM lost $$ each year. Truck, darn close, a lot of others that used to lose got combined then cancelled. (id like to see the rice boomer show go first)

they did a survey and it came back 20:1 chevy owners vs EVERYONE else. right or wrong, good or bad, chip is dead and the heirs are there to make $$. my $$ is in the ATN basket until it goes, then I guess partsorama for me - or quit the biz

Oldsmaniac

I notice too at the Carlisle website right before the listing for the Chevy Nationals is the Ford Nationals, maybe the Ford vs Chevy thing had something to do with it, there was no Chevrolet Nationals....

damaged442

I can understand that it's all about money, but they can't possibly think that by changing the name of the show to Chevy vs GM will make a difference in generating and acquiring more money. You would think that by deliberately excluding other GM brands, that this will not work in their favor. Oh well, I wish them luck!

wr1970

Where were you guys in 2007 when i went to indy? They had drag racing and a car show. They had a swap meet. At a all olds national. If you have a Olds event they will come. Except they didn't. I sure as hell will not go to a chevy event. The problems is no support for the brands that GM did away with. I went to a OCA event in springfeild i think 2013. What a bunch of un friendly guys. The drag racing event was way out in the boonies. Met a couple guys didn't get a name as just as we got there cloud burst in epic porportions.

Oldsmaniac

Yes this is something I don't understand as well. There are Olds Chapter shows with very poor attendance IMO. As a member of the OCA and DVOC chapter our nicely located (Tri State) all Olds fall show usually brings about 60 cars with perfect fall weather. I would expect at least double that if not more. Local weekly cruise nights around here, and there are many, usually bring over 100 cars.

wr1970

60 cars what a joke. Now hundred cruise car nights is cool. We have a yearly car show that has maybe 4 oldsmobiles and 300 car on a bad year has been 400/450. When will Oldsmobile guys u night and support a real national event and not way up north? You guy afraid to bring your stuff south a little or what. Get some vendors get a huge cars show. Have a damn parade. Have some drag racing. Have a huge swapmeet. Invite Pontiac guys, buick guys, Cads, No damn chevys cars. Get with car clubs to promote it. Set a date where it isn't in extreme heat.Can someone can find some fair grounds close to a drag strip or large parking lot that can hold ten thousand cars. Make this a national event with a cruise night and a day cruise event as well.Do a charity event to get as much support as you can. All this would cut down on boredom and bring in new blood. Maybe set up a stage for comedy. Just my thoughts.

TK-65

Face it there are not that many Olds guys left. The National show gets around 350 cars in a good year. That a NATIONAL show. Outside of the Midwest, Olds is pretty much an afterthought. Young people dont even know what Olds was and really dont care for old cars period. People are buying new Vettes and Camaros, the market Carlisle is after. The aftermarket for those cars is huge. Olds? Not so much.

BTW the reason Homecoming is as big as it is and continues to grow is because its in the north. The Midwest has always been the heart of the OCA and has the most Oldsmobile owners.

joe_padavano

This is true, but no one was asking Carlisle Events for an Olds-only event, just a GM event inclusive of all GMs. The GM Nationals were never that big (which really surprised me, especially as compared to Chryslers) and the event really went downhill when the Camaros split off and had their own event the same weekend. Personally that did not upset me, but I know it hurt gate receipts.

I just don't understand how changing the name of the event to exclude even a small percentage of the participants will increase attendance and profitability. Hell, most people think "GM" means "Chevy" anyway (like the ads for "GM small block parts").

MDchanic

One comment on this observation:

It seems to me that Chrysler and F_rd people hold less internecine hostility than GM people do (at least as displayed on the "surface" - I don't think anyone really hates anyone else).

You don't see F_rd people having meets where they give dirty looks to Mercury, Edsel, or Lincoln owners, or Dodge people doing the same to Chrysler, Plymouth, DeSoto, or Imperial owners, but the folks at an Olds meet will look down on the Ponchos and Chebbies, the folks at a Chebby meet will look down on the other Divisions, etc.
Even the Corvette folks will look down on the Camaro folks, who look down on the Chevelle folks.

It may be that they decided that a "GM" meet just didn't hold together well enough, and that liberal use of the C-word in their publicity would attract more new people from that one Division than were lost from all of the others.

- Eric

joe_padavano

Likely due in no small part to the fact that division-specific engines were dropped at those companies long before GM went to drivetrain homogeneity. I'm not saying this is a good thing - I like the fact that GM divisions had proprietary drivetrains. I also don't get the cross-division animosity. Yeah, I can't stand a belly-button motor in a non-Chevy car, but that's as much not wanting to be a lemming than anything else. It doesn't mean that I don't appreciate a nicely done Impala or Tempest. I do prefer looking at stuff that is unusual. Give me a Rampside Corvair or a dual quad nailhead Riviera over another Camaro with a blower any day.

wr1970

I will never go north again to a OCA event period. Like i said not a good bunch of guys to hang with. Then to drive 35 miles to get to a drag strip in between two corn fields. Face it as long as you guys travel down the road to not include the rejected brands of GM in your shows our brand will never get the support. Dream on dreamers.

MDchanic

Exactly. I spent my "'68-'72 daily driver days" driving GM cars without worrying much about the Division. I had Cs, Os, and a B (never quite ran into the right Poncho, and never could quite lasso a good Caddy, though I wanted to). I stuck with GM because architecture similarities and interchangeability of everything but the engines meant that even if I didn't have the manual, I knew what I was looking at if she stopped on the side of the road. I enjoyed 'em all, and never looked down on any of the Divisions.

I had a couple of F_rds, and just couldn't quite get used to the road feel, or the odd engineering mindset (cylinder numbering, anyone?).
I absolutely loved a Valiant I had, found the design and engineering thoughtful (except for the need to change the steering column when converting to power steering. Grrrrrrr...), and have had my eyes out for another since that one was wrecked a decade ago.

I guess I'm a little too "easy." I'm like Bill Clinton with women: "They're all beautiful."

- Eric

mpolds

The show has been getting smaller and smaller every year -- then they go and change the date from a non-holiday weekend -- and move it onto Father's Day Weekend -- which happens to DIRECTLY conflict with the Pittsburgh Parts-a-Rama 150 miles to the west -- and the Macungie Truck show -- 100 miles to the East.... they, at least, had their own weekend!!!!


We vendors pleaded and begged them NOT to change the date -- theydidn't listen to us -- and LOST THEIR SHIRTS.............
Attendance at a "rinky dink" show -- was down even more -- they lost another 50 vendors......


The show was a postage stamp at best -- they let you park all over the grounds INSIDE Carlisle -- and at least they "stole" the parking money -- from their neighbors...... The show really only catered to Chevelle, Camaro, Nova, and Corvette -- and a few GM "A" bodies -- GTOs, Buick Skylarks, Cutlass/442 guys anyway.....
For years, there have been No Caddys, No Full Size Oldses, No Full Size Buicks, No Full Size Pontiacs, and very few Chevy & G M Trucks.....
No they are going to "invite" even LESS people to the event.....
And, as Joe P. points out --- they lost the Concourse Camaro show due to greed........
Is there any brain power going on behind these decisions?????
Some of you guys remember the Summer Carlisle -- notice how it is already defunct.... Sadly, the GM show is not far behind.....
and that is embarrassing.................
----------- DO VOICE YOUR DISPLEASURE --- 717 - 273 - 9502 ------------

joe_padavano

Craig, do you sell at Parts-A-Rama?

mpolds

No, not any more, Joe P.....
If you look at their flyer -- it looks like it is the Carlisle of western Pennsylvania....
Big Flyer -- Butler County Fairgrounds --- GREAT LOCATION -- Beautiful
Park --- everything you could possibly want......
except.... people with money to buy anything!!!!!!!
And for those of us on the east coast, it is definitely a trek and a half!!!!!


If sales were good, I would make the trek, but it is definitely "rinky dink" --
it is really just a little local Pittsburgh are show....


(And then you have the Pa. tax people add on -- it is in Allegheny county)


I would wholeheartedly recommend -- that for you -- don't bother.....
---- Your friend and follower, Craig........ Happy Holidays!!

88 Cutty Classic

problem is with the OCA is there are too many older memebers and they dont reach out to us younger folks as an organization. i'm 37. BUT..people will talk to you if you are friendly. i dont buy the rudeness for one second. my best friend and i have been going to oldsmobile events since 03. a white kid and a black kid amounst all these older folk. i've found 99% of them to be good people that will talk. I usually end up talking with the HOCA folks because i know a lot of them better but i'm down to shoot the breeze with anyone.

Dick Miller did change his event to a B.O.C. event. pontiac still has big events but I do agree that Buick and Olds should get together on some collaboration events. As far as coming down south or more so the southwest... the biggest concentration of OLDS probably starts around michigan and goes out from there. outside of 8 hours i have no real desire to drive my car to an event. I'm far from retirement. these are weekend trips for me and many others. with that said the OCA and HOCA has been all over the country.

here is a list of the hurst olds events as far back as 98. i also know they have been in wisconsin, colorado, wv.. the oca has been more spread out than the HOCA but to the HOCA defense their membership is heavy in the great lakes region.
98 – KC
99- INDY
00- PA
01- MN
02- MI
03- TN
04- INDY
05- Norwalk
06- IL
07- Niagra falls
08- AZ
09- INDY
10- GA
11- KY
12- Hershey PA
13- FL
14- INDY
15- KY
16- TN


Back to my point about the OCA thou. I enjoy going to events but they need to make an effort to reach the younger audience specifically the G Body crowd. we are out here. I cant recall the last time a gbody was on the cover of JWO. i love the old cars but the 50s cars are featured to death and the 70s Abodys get a lot of attention too. The club should be trying to appeal to the 40 and 30 somethings or else the club will be dead.

i thought the event this year was pretty decent but it was WAAAAAAY to heavy early in the week. us younger group of olds owners were still at work when the club was doing the cool stuff like the track day. the HOCA always has their big event day saturday and the banquet that night. they didnt this year because it was a dual event with the OCA. granted the OCA has judging saturdays and the HOCA doesnt do judging. the OCA could try to have their bigger events on friday thou. wednesday is just far too early in the week IMO. The drag events are typically sparse. Frankly i think a lot of the OCA guys are scared to run their garage queens. on the other hand some of the HOCA guys are nuts. 05 at norwalk and 06 at rt66 dragway the HOCA had drag racing and guys were blowing off their polyglass gts running up and down the track. I honestly believe if they had more 1/8th mile or "street light" length racing , more people would do it. the 1/4 is nice but cars break when you push them too hard in the 1/4. the 1/8th is usally enough when you are running for fun.

I would say the 06 HOCA nats was one of the best organized events. we raced at RT 66 dragway, took a cruise of old rt 66, had a police escort where our cars were featured at a local cruise night. it was just a great overall time.

I was probably the youngest REAL winner at the nats this year. sure there was a kid who drove his dads car but for BOC, mostly everyone was 55 and up. I brought my 83 Hurst that i bought in 2002 for 3500. restored in 08. took a first in 09. got hit by a drink driver in 2012 and took home a first and Best of Class in 16.

88 Cutty Classic

i live in pittsburgh and have gotten some great stuff at parts-a-rama. as for it being in allegheny county....its not. hence the BUTLER COUNTY fair grounds. allegheny county ends way before that. at least 20 miles if not more.

i actually met a guy from SC at nationals this year who drives up from SC to go to the parts-a-rama every year.

mpolds

Thanks for the clarification on Butler vs Allegheny County -- that is a relatively new thing with the Pa. tax people.....
It won't concern me -- because I will NEVER be back to the Pittsburgh Parts-a-Rama, for reasons specified....


I service a lot of people in the 412 and 724 area codes (one of which I am sure is yours).....
But I even had friends and customers tell me -- when they saw me at the Parts-a-Rama "What are You doing here? -- You should have called me -- I would have told you NOT TO COME?!?!?!?!"
(WELL -- they were right!!!! Sales did not warrant future trips....)


I am glad you found some goodies there -- and I must confess, I am shocked to learn that a guy comes all the way there from South Carolina!!)

TK-65

Im not sure what youre saying. Are you saying as long as Carlisle excludes BOPC in their event name Olds will never get support? From who? Aftermarket or Olds owners? When it was GM Nationals, Olds owners didnt attend and the aftermarket was as it is now, non existent. Why would it be any different now that its the Chevy Nationals?

TK-65

Maybe make an effort to reach THEM. They pretty much feature anything you send in to JWO. If you write a nice story on your car, and have a few buddies do the same, the editor would probably print a theme issue around them. The editor is always asking for stories, its up to you to send them in. Like anything the club is what you make it. If you give them material to feature, youll probably see a G body on the cover.

88 Cutty Classic

i have. I've also expressed the same sentiment to my local chapter. The clubs simply cant sustain on current members passing it on to their children. Kids today have far different interests and priorities. Sure you will have ones that do pick up the car hobby but as public schooling indoctrinates them on the evils of the combustion engine those muscle car posters will be replaced with the tesla.

The top priorities of the club at this time should be to preserve AND educate. The stories and information is going to die with its members if they dont make a big effort to bring in the youth. This is why i try to talk to guys at the shows and NOT just guys with cars like mine. those are the people who have the knowledge.

joe_padavano

We've digressed quite a bit from the topic of Carlisle's Chevy Nationals, but it's a good discussion. My question is, what should the OCA or chapters be doing for the younger car enthusiasts that we aren't doing now? As president of the Capitol City Rockets chapter, I'm interested. Our chapter has struggled to maintain and grow membership over the years. What aren't we (collectively) doing that we should be?

quaddriver

I have looked at adding, or switching to P-O-R for a few years now. It is not as well organized as CP, but its cheaper, you have rv services for vendors, its a short drive from the birthplace of the east coast muscle car: pittsburgh (my dad used to be affiliated with Quail in wilkinsburg. You did not get a real car in the northeast without calling them FIRST), its not far from the birthplace of yenko and its real close to jim pace which was one of the last GM replacement shops in the US. its 1/4th the distance for me to drive (and at 8mpg the RV presents a real budget hit) and it might be the only place for hard parts now that most other shows have a lot of shlock vendors. but it is shorter and it is in an area that gets almost twice the annual rain/rain days

ps - allegheny cty does have an additional 1% tax, butler county does not

wr1970

I said i never going to a North OCA events that to hard to understand. Not a very friendly bunch of guys. As a matter of fact my buddy thought they was rude.I will go south just not north. I was talking a whole different type event. If you have more brands then you get more exposure. Excude the chevy's invite AMC guys. What does it hurt to have a different event with better entertainment more choices more people. You might generate more interest. How is the present model working?

Oldsmaniac

I think a major problem is the cars of the era thing and most people want or have interest in the cars of their youth. My dad used to speak of his Model A Ford and aluminum body Graham Paige junker he had. I have no interest in either of those. Perhaps the younger crowd will be or are interested in the 90's cars. The movie fast and furious swayed a lot of them as well. Mechanics in general seem to be loosing interest. Kids are not fooling with model airplane engines, rockets, mini bikes and the like. They dont build things like we used to. The video games, electronics etc are more to their liking. My son age 22 has never asked to drive one of my cars or go to an Olds show, but is just now getting into the car hobby with a 91 Trofeo and a 72 Spitfire. I think there is no solution to this and time passage will play out the future of interest in the old car hobby.

Yep let me get back on topic, Carlisle made a mistake with this one and another problem was the time of year the event took place, usually there were hot temps, high humidity with chances of severe T storms some with possible hail, not quite the weather for a car show outdoors.

oldcutlass

On the subject on attracting young people, there aren't enough of them to attract. My kid, like a lot of others, has no interest in cars, I've tried everything. The clubs do bend over backwards to welcome and nurture them when they show. The biggest problem is the younger people are more intimidated by the older folks and they feel that they don't fit in. Look at all the younger people that come on to this site. They try for a while to fix their cars, but due to lack of experience or knowledge, time, funds, family obligations, etc... They give up and try to sell their cars and move on. Or most often we never hear from them again.

When we die off, so will most of the hobby.

TK-65

That's not true. Guys will always like the cars that were cool in high school but could never afford. Who in 1985 would have said Bandit T/As would be so expensive today? Fox Mustangs are climbing higher and higher because those guys that lusted after a 5.0 can now afford them. Oldsmobiles will never gain in popularity because no performance models have been built in a very long time. Thus in a round about way the rebranding of the GM Nationals.

TK-65

No offense but yes your post is hard to understand.

88 Cutty Classic

well i can't speak for local chapters and stuff but for the national event would be different activities, maybe a BBQ instead of a sitdown dinner, maybe a cannonball run/checkpoint type event instead of a tour of some old landmark.

let me think...well my local chapter is always at local cruise nights passing out flyers to other oldsmobile owners. social media is a good way to reach the younger folks. and when i say younger i dont mean kids outta college.. i mean people my age, in their 30s. I will say a problem with my age group is people are staring families. Maybe make the big events more family friendly. I did see families at nats but i mostly saw people who were retired.

i think the modified crowd shys away from the clubs a lot because the originality sticklers can get under peoples skin. dont get me wrong, i dont wanna some chevy powered cutlass but if it gets bodies there, so be it. Lowriders and Big rim guys, forget it... they get stereotyped from the gate. I'm in the G-Body crowd, there are a lot of us. our cars need to be on the stage to get a lot of us involved. the A-bodys have had more than their share. im not trying to make it an uS vs them kinda thing, i'm just trying to brainstorm what can be done.

come on guy, its 2017... this north vs south stuff is lame. i'm one of them evil yankees I guess. What it sounds like is you either met the wrong group of people or the problem lies somewhere else. I talked to people from all over the united states when i was at nationals this year and the only cold shoulder i got was from some of the people selling items (none of the major vendors). After I won my Best of Class i had all kinda of people coming up to me to congratulate me. People WILL talk and be courteous if you are receptive to them.



WE ARE HERE but we arent the demographic you are thinking... we are from about 27-45. We know a lot about these cars too but not because we lived through those era but because we grew up in the information age and seeked it out on the internet. I think that intimidates some of the older folks. I have had guys that dont wanna hear what i gotta say and thats fine but I do look for the older folks that were around that can pass on some of that first hand knowlege. things like stories. I'm lucky to have a mechanic father who was in his early 20s during the golden years of the muscle car era. he was a mopar guy and i know a lot about them because of it. When i was a kid thou, he was driving oldsmobiles and thats where I got a love for them.

i dont see why kids now would be into cars. cars all look the same now and most of them are ugly. They has also been indoctrinated by public schooling about the environment. they think a prius is cool cause it saves the planet. parents let their kids grow up to fast and act like adults when they are 10. turning 16 and getting a license isnt the big deal it used to be when you have cell phones in first grade and kids are banging when they are 12. The only way todays kids are gonna be into cars is if my generation, the one who has small kids, gets involved more.

88 Cutty Classic

one of my dads customers is a guy in his early 40s and he just dropped 25k on a MINT 93 Cobra for the exact reason you talked about, wanting it when he was in high school.

as far as olds. I get what you are saying. after the 87 442 there wasnt a really exciting package put out by olds. I mean i was only 7 then but i was at least old enough to appriciate them. there wasnt much to be desired in the way of automobiles when i was in high school outside of supercars like the viper. we were still liking the cars from the era before, the SS, the GN, the fox body, the iroc, etc...

oldcutlass

Kids today are not interested in cars because they have no one to influence them into the hobby as their parents don't really appreciate them either. Those of us that became adults prior to the 80's mostly worked on them ourselves as a matter of necessity. Please note, in comparison, just as it is true today Oldsmobiles were an extreme minority of cars that were sought after when we were young.