How does everyone feel about the Chevy Nationals at Carlisle? - Page 3 - ClassicOldsmobile.com


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Old January 10th, 2017, 04:12 AM   #81
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Clearly that would have to happen at Mason/Dixon Dragway, which just happens to be the closest track to my house.
I was about to say, that sits 3 miles from where I type this
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Old January 10th, 2017, 04:16 AM   #82
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Six hours from Maine to NY/NJ.

From NY/NJ, another four hours to Carlisle, give or take.

(95 —> 495 —> 90 —> 84 —> NY/NJ —> 78 —> Carlisle).

Probably could go straight there: 84 —> 81 —> 78, but that wouldn't save much time, and I'd lose a place to rest.

- Eric
Once you hit NYS, off 87 or 84, 287 is now thru all the way from the tap approach to 78, and 78 is a straight shot to 81, 30ish miles north of the carlisle exit. using 84 is passe now....
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Old January 10th, 2017, 04:55 AM   #83
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Funny, two guys arguing about who's rude and where they're from...passively inciting rage in each other's hearts...being rude to one another. Irony.

I'm planning on going to the Good Guys event in Austin this year. I'm 36. Perfectly restored Oldsmobiles sitting in a parking lot bore me. I like to drive my car. Hell, I'm going to beat the crap out of it at Good Guys. And when it breaks I won't be looking for over priced NOS or rare parts at a swap meet. I'm going to call X manufacturer and get the latest and greatest X that I can find to replace the stock (which is hard to find on my already modified car) part with something better. Performance is what interests the younger crowd, not judges scores and geriatric dining experiences.

I don't see near the bickering that I see on CO over on pro-touring.com. I do see alot of enthusiasm for my Cutlass. Truth be told the only brand resentment I see comes from this side of the pond.
im 37 and enjoy a corcourse restoration as much as something that goes 9 secs. In Fact i realize how tedious it is to produce and maintain a judged car. to knock that on the merrit of going fast is as rude as what you accused myself and wr1970 of. Just because I have ONE car that i show for points doesnt mean i dont have 3 others that I beat the snot out of as well. Its pretty easy to open a catalog and order whatever you need aka the chevy mentality but there is something to be said for having an olds and hunting down those rare overpriced NOS parts. its part of the hobby thats enjoyable.

If Perfectly restored oldsmobiles in a parking lot bore you then maybe you arent really an Oldsmobile guy per se, but a gear head in general. nothing wrong with that. you could go fast in a pontiac or a ford and it would probably suit you just the same. I'm into oldsmobiles, the history, the numbers, all of it. Along with that comes sitting in parking lots talking about boring things like options and factory oddities. But just the same I had my Perfectly restored Hurst Olds at the drag strip at Nationals making passes against other stock cars. Its a bit of nostalgia to get cars like that and run them together. its not always about two guys arguing about who's faster...passively inciting rage in each other's hearts...being rude to one another.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 10:32 PM   #84
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Funny, two guys arguing about who's rude and where they're from...passively inciting rage in each other's hearts...being rude to one another. Irony.

I'm planning on going to the Good Guys event in Austin this year. I'm 36. Perfectly restored Oldsmobiles sitting in a parking lot bore me. I like to drive my car. Hell, I'm going to beat the crap out of it at Good Guys. And when it breaks I won't be looking for over priced NOS or rare parts at a swap meet. I'm going to call X manufacturer and get the latest and greatest X that I can find to replace the stock (which is hard to find on my already modified car) part with something better. Performance is what interests the younger crowd, not judges scores and geriatric dining experiences.

I don't see near the bickering that I see on CO over on pro-touring.com. I do see alot of enthusiasm for my Cutlass. Truth be told the only brand resentment I see comes from this side of the pond.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 11:44 PM   #85
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i have. I've also expressed the same sentiment to my local chapter. The clubs simply cant sustain on current members passing it on to their children. Kids today have far different interests and priorities. Sure you will have ones that do pick up the car hobby but as public schooling indoctrinates them on the evils of the combustion engine those muscle car posters will be replaced with the tesla.

The top priorities of the club at this time should be to preserve AND educate. The stories and information is going to die with its members if they dont make a big effort to bring in the youth. This is why i try to talk to guys at the shows and NOT just guys with cars like mine. those are the people who have the knowledge.
There is a plethora of unrelated forces at play here that a lot of people don't seem to notice.

The most obvious one is economics. The cost of car ownership just for a daily driver much less an antique/vintage model has gone up considerably over the last couple of decades. Do any of you notice what kids these days are paying just for min coverage car insurance? Its insane. Its no wonder they aren't very active in car hobbies when the cost of being legal is so high. Then gas keeps going up due to hyper speculation and over taxation. PA (the state being discussed) now has the highest gas tax in the whole country, by a wide margin in fact, not that anyone would know it by driving on our worn out roads. That's because all the gas tax revenue gets dumped into the general fund instead of a trust fund, so the corrupt politicians can spend it on anything they want. That means roads take a back seat and before you know it 1/3 of the state's bridges are closed because they're no longer safe (that's a fact), and a 30 cent gas tax hike was put in place by our last governor as he left office to "fix" the problem without changing how the road revenue stream was handled, thus ensuring the roads will continue to go neglected as the cost of car ownership goes higher and higher. And its not just gas. All the DMV fees were given 100-500% price hikes all at once.

Meanwhile the younger people have to juggle that with a labor market where almost all new job creation is benefit-less part time low wage stuff, while paying out the butt for student loans, high housing costs, medical costs and smartphone plans. The statistics on youth financial problems speak for themselves. They either don't have the money, or they do but they're stuck working for companies that expect them to be on call (while not getting paid for the responsibility that comes with it).

I'm at the older-end of the millennial cohort so I see both sides of these issues from personal experience. My first job out of college, that I needed a degree for, was at a company that refused to make schedules up. I never knew when I was going to be working. I'd get called in at like 6:45 with my boss asking if I wanted to come in within the next 15 minutes. No job security, and no way of predicting when I'd have free time. If I didn't accept those improv hours I wouldn't get them and then I wouldn't have money for rent. I was willing to take a hefty pay cut just to know when the heck I'd be working so I could plan a life around it. This was a job where personal safety was involved, only hiring exmilitary & law enforcement. Its worse for the poor souls stuck in min wage retail or fast food work because their employers expect them to keep their schedules open so they can be called in without notice when labor demand spikes high. They have to give their employer first-call priority over any other job, which means no one else wants to hire them (try telling an employer at an interview: Sure I will work for you but if my other employer calls saying I have to come in, I have to go in or I'd be fired even if you had me scheduled already that day).

I could write all day about how medical care or tuition has outpaced inflation. I went to the same school my parents did as a legacy. Less than a decade apart from their later-degrees, yet in the time between tuition tripled and that's before looking at all the tricky ways they nickle and dime you with fees, text books, food/housing, car permits, etc. My seven years of college cost some $85,000. I could have gotten a house for that and be better off today.

I am not saying any of this to be political, just to try to give some insight into this in case it helps someone here see why there seems to be a lot of missing faces after a certain age cut off. These same problems are impacting one hobby after another. Its always the same thing I keep hearing: "The membership is dying off, I can't get any kids interested in this, the future looks bad." Its not propaganda its just the way our society has changed. They're saying the same things in ham radio, antique radio, vintage audio, woodworking, antiques. At the PCS (procar) show in Gettysburg this year they were going up to anyone under 35 begging them to stay and participate "YOUTH! WE NEED YOUTH! PLLLLLEASE don't go!!!! Come back!" because the organization knows their membership skews heavy to the boomer side and that they don't know how they're going to sustain themselves.

Car hobbies in particular have a grim future ahead of themselves since from around 1995 & on these cars have to pass strict emissions inspections to be street legal. So what's going to happen as the computers these systems rely on start becoming unobtainium? GM is no longer making a lot of the 90s computers and computer modules you need to keep those cars in running condition. The supply is drying up. The boards use proprietary chips & software so getting them refurbished is not easy and legally dicey.

Ford thinks they are going to have self driving cars on the market in five years. I don't believe that, but that day will get here faster than you'd think and then what's going to happen? How affordable will it be to insure a manually driven car for kids & young adults when so-called crash proof automated cars are everywhere? What will happen to gas prices if half the cars on the road are electric?

Again, I am not trying to start a flame war or a political argument. Just speaking from my experiences. When I started driving gas was $1/gallon, and min wage was just over $5/hr. My car insurance was $40 every 2 weeks. To put that into perspective for $20 (4 hours of work) I could fill up my car, grab a candy bar, and a bottle of mt dew. My after school part time job allowed me to buy my own car, car insurance, and gas, and then give me enough left over to save up money for college. Those days are over. Today min wage is $7/hr (depending on location), gas is nearing $3/gal, car insurance for a teen driver is more like $125/month. Throw in a smartphone plan in on top of that for another $40-100/month (since so many employers require you to have one to work- mine did).

We may be living at the end of an era here.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 12:42 AM   #86
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Interesting read, the whole topic.

Might i give an insight? Im 25, so i can talk as one of those "kids" around
Another country, same problems.

I personally havent seen from my generation that they wouldnt be interested about American cars. They are indeed really excited always when they see one, <90's made one. They would like to have one. Drive one. And they cant understand why i dont want to give them ride at weekend-night with drinking booze on car. Why? I have so much money on it.

In my opinion, it all comes down to money. American cars here are maybe more popular than ever. All the time there are cargo ships sailing from US to Finland with containers filled with old muscles and ordinary cars. They come to middle-aged and older people, who has the money. They probably have houses paid, some kind of job, and no need to think about future so much.
So, while here is more American cars than ever, they are so highly priced, that youth wont have money to buy those.

Unless a) Their dad fiancees it, or b) They happen to have so rare situation that they are on well paid job. Heck, with great stretch i could just afford my 76' 442, even its not popular at all. No way of dreaming about older generation A-bodies. Same condition car than mine from previous generation costs double of my car at minimum.

Even the 90's generic GM station wagons at raggar-condition tend to cost more than youth can afford, and even then it will be great strecth to buy it, and live 12 months with macaroni.

Then the other thing, about their interest to the history of some marques, models, brands etc. Unless youre serious dreamer, or have a car, i dont see it can even grow to you.

Fast cars have probably always fascinated people. Their easy to "understand". They go fast = theyre cool. Okay, more modern cars are fast too, even faster, but those old american cars have the raw attitude newer cars lack. Put an Supra and ~70's GTO side By side. 80% of the young people are more interested of that GTO, against popular belief.

As an example, my friends hardly even knew that there was once an marque called Oldsmobile. I knew it before i bought my car, but i didnt have any particular interest to it, or any other marque. For me, the interest to Oldsmobile history came when i bought my car, and got pulled to its world. After that ive read alot of it, everything ive got my hands on.

But quess where this goes again? Money. How to build interest without concrete thing to grab for?

All in all, id say the main problem at whole picture is, that younger generation cant afford those, and their prices go up at steady pace, always keeping mile ahead of those trying to grab them. If they could, the situation would be WAY different. In my opinion its not about them not being interested about old cars, its almost other way, they are really excited.
And that problem, guys, is unfixable.

Just a few thoughts.

Last edited by Inline; January 12th, 2017 at 12:53 AM.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 04:52 AM   #87
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There is a plethora of unrelated forces at play here that a lot of people don't seem to notice.

The most obvious one is economics. The cost of car ownership just for a daily driver much less an antique/vintage model has gone up considerably over the last couple of decades. Do any of you notice what kids these days are paying just for min coverage car insurance? Its insane. Its no wonder they aren't very active in car hobbies when the cost of being legal is so high. Then gas keeps going up due to hyper speculation and over taxation. PA (the state being discussed) now has the highest gas tax in the whole country, by a wide margin in fact, not that anyone would know it by driving on our worn out roads. That's because all the gas tax revenue gets dumped into the general fund instead of a trust fund, so the corrupt politicians can spend it on anything they want. That means roads take a back seat and before you know it 1/3 of the state's bridges are closed because they're no longer safe (that's a fact), and a 30 cent gas tax hike was put in place by our last governor as he left office to "fix" the problem without changing how the road revenue stream was handled, thus ensuring the roads will continue to go neglected as the cost of car ownership goes higher and higher. And its not just gas. All the DMV fees were given 100-500% price hikes all at once.

Meanwhile the younger people have to juggle that with a labor market where almost all new job creation is benefit-less part time low wage stuff, while paying out the butt for student loans, high housing costs, medical costs and smartphone plans. The statistics on youth financial problems speak for themselves. They either don't have the money, or they do but they're stuck working for companies that expect them to be on call (while not getting paid for the responsibility that comes with it).

I'm at the older-end of the millennial cohort so I see both sides of these issues from personal experience. My first job out of college, that I needed a degree for, was at a company that refused to make schedules up. I never knew when I was going to be working. I'd get called in at like 6:45 with my boss asking if I wanted to come in within the next 15 minutes. No job security, and no way of predicting when I'd have free time. If I didn't accept those improv hours I wouldn't get them and then I wouldn't have money for rent. I was willing to take a hefty pay cut just to know when the heck I'd be working so I could plan a life around it. This was a job where personal safety was involved, only hiring exmilitary & law enforcement. Its worse for the poor souls stuck in min wage retail or fast food work because their employers expect them to keep their schedules open so they can be called in without notice when labor demand spikes high. They have to give their employer first-call priority over any other job, which means no one else wants to hire them (try telling an employer at an interview: Sure I will work for you but if my other employer calls saying I have to come in, I have to go in or I'd be fired even if you had me scheduled already that day).

I could write all day about how medical care or tuition has outpaced inflation. I went to the same school my parents did as a legacy. Less than a decade apart from their later-degrees, yet in the time between tuition tripled and that's before looking at all the tricky ways they nickle and dime you with fees, text books, food/housing, car permits, etc. My seven years of college cost some $85,000. I could have gotten a house for that and be better off today.

I am not saying any of this to be political, just to try to give some insight into this in case it helps someone here see why there seems to be a lot of missing faces after a certain age cut off. These same problems are impacting one hobby after another. Its always the same thing I keep hearing: "The membership is dying off, I can't get any kids interested in this, the future looks bad." Its not propaganda its just the way our society has changed. They're saying the same things in ham radio, antique radio, vintage audio, woodworking, antiques. At the PCS (procar) show in Gettysburg this year they were going up to anyone under 35 begging them to stay and participate "YOUTH! WE NEED YOUTH! PLLLLLEASE don't go!!!! Come back!" because the organization knows their membership skews heavy to the boomer side and that they don't know how they're going to sustain themselves.

Car hobbies in particular have a grim future ahead of themselves since from around 1995 & on these cars have to pass strict emissions inspections to be street legal. So what's going to happen as the computers these systems rely on start becoming unobtainium? GM is no longer making a lot of the 90s computers and computer modules you need to keep those cars in running condition. The supply is drying up. The boards use proprietary chips & software so getting them refurbished is not easy and legally dicey.

Ford thinks they are going to have self driving cars on the market in five years. I don't believe that, but that day will get here faster than you'd think and then what's going to happen? How affordable will it be to insure a manually driven car for kids & young adults when so-called crash proof automated cars are everywhere? What will happen to gas prices if half the cars on the road are electric?

Again, I am not trying to start a flame war or a political argument. Just speaking from my experiences. When I started driving gas was $1/gallon, and min wage was just over $5/hr. My car insurance was $40 every 2 weeks. To put that into perspective for $20 (4 hours of work) I could fill up my car, grab a candy bar, and a bottle of mt dew. My after school part time job allowed me to buy my own car, car insurance, and gas, and then give me enough left over to save up money for college. Those days are over. Today min wage is $7/hr (depending on location), gas is nearing $3/gal, car insurance for a teen driver is more like $125/month. Throw in a smartphone plan in on top of that for another $40-100/month (since so many employers require you to have one to work- mine did).

We may be living at the end of an era here.
I spoke about the PA gas tax in another thread here. yes, its awful but its something that you are used to if you live here. I've never let gas prices curtail my driving habits on what i drive. Some people do but I love cars and if need be, i make cuts in other areas of my life.

I could go on forever about the job market but in short the ideal that people need to go to college is to blame. That notion is antiquated. Technical school arent nearly pushed on high school students enough. They are the fastest and most economical way to a solid starting wage. I also believe the mind of some one 18-25 is far different than decades past. Education should be more of a continuous thing rather than get in all done in those years. People should get into those entry tech level jobs and have their companies pay for a bachlors/masters degree because many do. Also, the trades are a way to make a really great living. Those guys are cleaning house while college grads are buried in debt.

As for emissions, PA has/ is supposed to have a sliding scale. In theory cars should eventually reach exemption. you can reach exemption in other ways in PA as well. Mileage exempt cars aren't subject to emissions. Cars outside of the major counties aren;t required to get emissions either. A less popular way is a collector plate (black and gold). I believe it involves a R title thou. Theres has been efforts for years to scrap the emissions program in PA. The fact that PA went Red in the presidential elections gives me hope that in the next governer race PA can get wolf the hell out and have someone in that will again push to eliminate the program.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 07:02 AM   #88
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Sorry, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for "what kids are paying for insurance, gas, cars, etc. today." When I got my license in 1974, I was paying a TON for bare minimum car insurance, and my part-time jobs certainly were not bringing in big money. Since many here weren't alive in the 1970s, you don't recall Gas Crisis I and II, where gasoline shot up from $0.25/gal to well over $1.00 in the course of weeks. Of course, that was if you could find a station that had any. People also don't remember the other crisis, which was that gas pumps of the time were incapable of accepting a price of over $0.99/gal.

My first car was a 1968 442 that I pulled out of a wrecking yard for $100 and completely restored. I couldn't afford to pay someone to work on it, so I learned. It wasn't perfect, and I made a lot of mistakes, but it taught me a lot and was a lot of fun to drive.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 08:40 AM   #89
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I never had money issues back in 75 when I started driving. I also never worked for min wage back then either, $5-7.5/hour went a long way considering. Most of us worked on our own cars and lived through junkyard parts, my cars didn't see new replacement parts until around 1982.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 08:55 AM   #90
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. Performance is what interests the younger crowd, not judges scores and geriatric dining experiences.
Always has been the case. Thus the reason why muscle cars were invented. To cater to the street racing youth that now sit in lawn chairs at car shows. Those geriatric guys sitting around telling stories are ex drag racers, street racers, and car builders.

They werent always into restoring cars for points and awards. They used to break parts on a weekly basis. Dont be so sure you wont be one of them when you get tired of spending money on parts that worked just fine until you broke them.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 03:59 PM   #91
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As for emissions, PA has/ is supposed to have a sliding scale. In theory cars should eventually reach exemption. you can reach exemption in other ways in PA as well. Mileage exempt cars aren't subject to emissions. Cars outside of the major counties aren;t required to get emissions either. A less popular way is a collector plate (black and gold). I believe it involves a R title thou. Theres has been efforts for years to scrap the emissions program in PA. The fact that PA went Red in the presidential elections gives me hope that in the next governer race PA can get wolf the hell out and have someone in that will again push to eliminate the program.
sorta, we have 3 tiers where after 15 years of lobbying we now to a OBD check instead of strictly a tailpipe test - which met with resistance because of the huge initial outlay by some stations.

The very least is an anti-tampering check, the middle is the gas cap test which ALSO requires a high priced machine.

You will never exempt due to mileage, and you MAY exempt due to age, but it requires a classic, antique etc tag which severely limits annual mileage and purpose (which is why my regency is a straight reg and not classic)

the program is currently all vehicles from 75 -on and 9000lbs or less, but at the time 8600lb was the magic number, however 8600lb vehicles created a federal 'lessening', not strictly exemption making them desirable as the emission tune begats easy modifications.

as always, it is a felony to not use a certified ecm replacement chip or non certified part. that it might not be actively enforced is not a pass - if the DMV wants ya, they can get ya.

R titles have nothing to do with it.

the original ironman specification called for no sniff test if the MIL was not on, on obd2 vehicles 96-on. The stuff is that good. I consider it a win what we got as a simple scan tool hook up is just about as good and the cost is minimal.

In no way would I back a dropping of the program - the stuff just works and the stuff just never breaks anymore (as a percentage of population) and the compliance remediation is only $150 or about the cost of 3 tanks of gas at current prices.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 08:15 PM   #92
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sorta, we have 3 tiers where after 15 years of lobbying we now to a OBD check instead of strictly a tailpipe test - which met with resistance because of the huge initial outlay by some stations.

The very least is an anti-tampering check, the middle is the gas cap test which ALSO requires a high priced machine.

You will never exempt due to mileage, and you MAY exempt due to age, but it requires a classic, antique etc tag which severely limits annual mileage and purpose (which is why my regency is a straight reg and not classic)

the program is currently all vehicles from 75 -on and 9000lbs or less, but at the time 8600lb was the magic number, however 8600lb vehicles created a federal 'lessening', not strictly exemption making them desirable as the emission tune begats easy modifications.

as always, it is a felony to not use a certified ecm replacement chip or non certified part. that it might not be actively enforced is not a pass - if the DMV wants ya, they can get ya.

R titles have nothing to do with it.

the original ironman specification called for no sniff test if the MIL was not on, on obd2 vehicles 96-on. The stuff is that good. I consider it a win what we got as a simple scan tool hook up is just about as good and the cost is minimal.

In no way would I back a dropping of the program - the stuff just works and the stuff just never breaks anymore (as a percentage of population) and the compliance remediation is only $150 or about the cost of 3 tanks of gas at current prices.
In Pa we have mileage exemptions. If your car does less than 5000 miles they will just slap a sticker on it. They don't have to look at anything emissions related. Just safety.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 03:58 AM   #93
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In Pa we have mileage exemptions. If your car does less than 5000 miles they will just slap a sticker on it. They don't have to look at anything emissions related. Just safety.
you are talking about this:

Quote:
Are any vehicles exempt from Pe
nnsylvania’s emis
sions program?
Yes. Vehicles will be exempt
from the program if:

the vehicle has been owned for one year and
driven less than 5,000 miles in the
prior year. However, motorists must go
to an emissions inspection station to
verify the vehicle’s mileage and receive an
exemption sticker. Motorists can do
this when they get their safety inspecti
on if the station performs both types of
inspections.

the vehicle is a new car, not previ
ously titled and has less than 5,000 miles
before registration; motorists should receiv
e an exemption sticker valid for up to
12 months upon receipt of the new
car from your new car dealer.
Exemptions are determined by a ce
rtified emissions inspector
this applies only to the counties in which the OBD testing is done and a visual is still required. (that in itself is only exempt if the car is classic or antique or street rod in which the aforementioned mileage/use restrictions are in place.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 12:55 PM   #94
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you are talking about this:



this applies only to the counties in which the OBD testing is done and a visual is still required. (that in itself is only exempt if the car is classic or antique or street rod in which the aforementioned mileage/use restrictions are in place.

No. My car is not antique, classic or street rod. And they do not do a visual. If you do less than 5000 miles in any vehicle over a years time they do not inspect the car for emissions. I have been through this many times with multiple vehicles and at different inspection station.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 10:11 PM   #95
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No. My car is not antique, classic or street rod. And they do not do a visual. If you do less than 5000 miles in any vehicle over a years time they do not inspect the car for emissions. I have been through this many times with multiple vehicles and at different inspection station.
Whomever is telling you this is just being silly.

The visual 'emission inspection' is statewide and is part of the mandated safety inspection.

Please find attached the MV431 which you have likely never seen - there would be no reason for you to. It is attached because it is electronic and you can see from the copyright statement that I am the author. *all* 67 counties use this form and *all* stations fill it in completely.

At this time my firm (mine as in I own it and am the principle) was contracted to design an online system for inspection records and verify insurance compliance (cards can be forged) and mileage reporting, etc etc.

It was never implemented due to political reasons at the time (look at the date and think hard) but nonetheless, it was a comprehensive enterprise level design. Darn shame too cuz PA has the most comprehensive safety inspection program in the US of A. This would have made the whole shebang world class.

suffice to say, earlier this week I was pouring thru a couple robust XP machines we have and never use and cleaning them out to sell them and I came across this file and then a few days later you post. talk about luck.

as you will note from the file, the visual check records is PART of the safety inspection. There is no code (as in legal code) in the 'reject if' portion of the MVC to skip this if vehicle mileage is at any level. The OBD/tailpipe dyno check in the strict MSAs and the gas cap test in the balance are *performance* tests of the emission controls. The statewide visual check is an anti-tampering check required by the EPA on *all* vehicles model year 1975 or newer. Federal law. Trumps state law every day.

The only way for your car to not be on the MV431 in that section is to a) be a disil*1 or b) not be on the MV431 at all due to one of the aforementioned special registrations.

PA's special registration is its personal flavor of what exists in every state to cover car owners which make use of the famous 'not legal for sale or use on pollution controlled motor vehicles' or on road vehicles or whatever language is required.

These registrations were created at first by an EPA MOU and then later actual rule making. since the modified car community is so small and does in fact so seldom use the vehicles, it was an acceptable risk.*2

Now if you are next to argue that you know someone who knows someone who inspects cars and blah blah blah, let me assure you if an inspector is seeing a nonIM or IM registration and not performing the tampering check, he is in violation. Every station *will* be inspected by their QAO at least once a year for cursory paperwork compliance and there is no path for a gasoline vehicle made after 1975 to have the section you can see on my attachment blank. If they are leaving it blank, or filling it in frivolously, each instance is punishable by UP TO $10000 fine plus other stuff. This does not imply I am going to turn anyone in or ask you for names because I dont really care. Things that should not be done are in fact being done and no cops or QAOs are enforcing blatant violations *3. But this digression from the thread is not about who is enforcing what, it is about the letter of the law, which obviously I am well versed in. I have been after all a licensed PA inspector since 1983. I had dropped my emissions cert, simply because I do not live in an IM county and while I am buying a house in an IM county, I am not re-instating the shop as a full time enterprise and moving it. But I digress. Plain english statement of the governing law is found here: http://www.drivecleanpa.state.pa.us/changes/faq_non.pdf

I am under the impression all code (in the form of XML and VBA macros) have been removed so it is safe to open on your machine. Heck, it is even legal to *use* it in a certified shop the caveat being since PA has elected to stay in the stone age for safety inspections, the MV431 data must at all times be printed off. My design would have it use a method to transmit the populated data to the state using a number of means, the most simple being a generic POST_VARs method to a state web page accessed by an AD login using your appointment number. Less paper, more data, more compliance checks. Hence, an enemy of democr....ooops, almost went there.

Notes:

1 = Disils (aka diesels) do in fact oft have EGR valves and the DPF or blue tec system can in fact be interpreted as a cat. Some QAOs suggest their stations fill that in for disils, but the fact remains, PA does not in any way test disils, mewling over VW aside

2 = Contrast to say, um, Maryland, who performs no safety inspection for resident vehicles. You can have brakes at metal on metal, the exhaust routed into the car and only 1 working bulb and the car is A #1 O K to drive on the road AS LONG AS it passes the sniffer. But from a state that allows passing (even buses) on the right BERM, no requirement to yield on a limited access highway merge (lookitup) or requirement to signal a lane change (lookitup), this does not surprise me

3 = simple crap like low exhaust, oversize lift kits, extruding tires outside the wheel-well, extraneous stickers on the window, XD discharge lights, window tint, license plate covers, headlight covers are all prohibited by the vehicle code, but alas, no longer trip the FAIL.
Attached Files
File Type: xls Eds MV-431.xls (33.5 KB, 3 views)
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Old January 14th, 2017, 07:50 AM   #96
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you speak as only a state trooper would speak in regards to the program. i would probably be better off banging my head off a wall but i will say though, I have received information contrary to yours straight from the mouth of the QAO who inspects the inspection place i use in regards to the visual portion. basically he stated 175.80 D doesnt specifically address emissions exempt vehicles and neither does 175.4. there is nothing in 175.80 that says if a car is exempt that it still needs to pass the visual. there is also nothing that says it doesnt need to pass the visual. its a gray area that is subject to interpretation. In otherwords an Inspector can interpret the vehicles emissions exemption sticker as an exemption from the visual check because its done during the emissions test. ref 177.201-6. If its exempt in the emssions test, its exempt in the inspection according to his interpretation. It may be implied but its not specifially called out.

as for the emissions program's value, its the biggest farce laid on the people of Pennsylvania. If you do not favor the dropping of it you basically favor a tax on the people. thats exactly what it is. It serves no value. the test itself is a complete joke. Emissions control equipment itself is the number 1 cause of vehicals running poorly and inefficient. The Safety inspection on the other hand is something i fully agree with. we dont need the crap running around PA that Ohio has. the specific call outs of it are a lil much. Its needs to be more general in many areas of it. the main areas that should be checked is functioning lights, structural integrity, tires, brakes, restraints, engine operation. Vehicle saftey should be a general federal standard. I do quality control for nuclear. our quality program has to be in line with the NRC (10CFR 50 Appendix B) for passenger vehicles they should set a federal guideline that states need to meet.

the EPA can burn in hell. biggest terroristic threat to American prosperity. Its not a protective arm of the Government, its a political machine. I'm for realistic conservation, not polluting local waters, developing more efficient ways to manufacture, etc.. i'm not for the destruction of industry and the economy through absurd regulations.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 07:55 AM   #97
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I think I just decided that I'm not moving to Pennsylvania.

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Old January 14th, 2017, 08:12 AM   #98
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I can't speak for PA laws, and I guess by now the only relationship between this discussion and the original question about Carlisle is that it's held in PA...

... BUT, there are a few misconceptions here.

First, if one really believes that "Emissions control equipment itself is the number 1 cause of vehicals running poorly and inefficient", then explain how modern cars can be compliant with far more stringent emissions requirements, make 500-700 HP, and get better gas mileage than any classic musclecar? The reality is that poor maintenance and owners who blindly rip equipment off without understanding what it does are the causes. Take EGR for example. The EGR valve is only active during part throttle cruise. It has ZERO effect at wide open throttle. Or what about the evap cannister that people always want to rip out? And modern honeycomb cats are no more restrictive than a section of straight pipe. Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that emission equipment is the problem. Ignorance is the problem.

Second, I can see both sides of the safety inspection issue. Annual inspections are only valid until the car drives out of the inspection station. Do you really think nothing is going to break for the next year. MD still has laws requiring equipment on the car to be safe, but they have pushed enforcement of those laws onto the police instead of inspection stations. If an officer sees a car that's unsafe, it gets a ticket. Personally, I think the police have enough to do without this burden, and I'm struggling to understand how police get the xray vision they need to see if brakes and suspension components are worn, but that's the law.

Third, it is still illegal under FEDERAL law to tamper with or remove any factory installed emissions equipment. This applies whether your car is one day old or 50 years old. No, there has never been a case of a private citizen being cited under this law, but it is the law nonetheless. Some states (like VA) have recently modified their safety inspection criteria to include a visual inspection of the emissions equipment, even on cars that are exempt from emissions testing. The result is a failure of the safety inspection for lack of emissions equipment.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 08:26 AM   #99
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While it's all good in theory, the last I read about it (which may have been a couple of years ago), there was no evidence that states with mandatory safety inspections had a lower incidence of equipment-failure-caused accidents than states with mandatory inspections.
New Jersey has not had mandatory inspections for at least three years now - do you hear horror stories about how unsafe Jersey cars are?

Combine this with the practical fact that in many, if not all, states, the annual safety inspection is essentially a blank check for disreputable repair shops to defraud customers (yes, I've had coworkers who were mystified as to why they needed four new shocks, every year, for $1,200 each time), and I would be happy to see mandatory inspections go the way of the dodo bird.

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Old January 14th, 2017, 08:45 AM   #100
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I can't speak for PA laws, and I guess by now the only relationship between this discussion and the original question about Carlisle is that it's held in PA...

... BUT, there are a few misconceptions here.

First, if one really believes that "Emissions control equipment itself is the number 1 cause of vehicals running poorly and inefficient", then explain how modern cars can be compliant with far more stringent emissions requirements, make 500-700 HP, and get better gas mileage than any classic musclecar? The reality is that poor maintenance and owners who blindly rip equipment off without understanding what it does are the causes. Take EGR for example. The EGR valve is only active during part throttle cruise. It has ZERO effect at wide open throttle. Or what about the evap cannister that people always want to rip out? And modern honeycomb cats are no more restrictive than a section of straight pipe. Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that emission equipment is the problem. Ignorance is the problem.

Second, I can see both sides of the safety inspection issue. Annual inspections are only valid until the car drives out of the inspection station. Do you really think nothing is going to break for the next year. MD still has laws requiring equipment on the car to be safe, but they have pushed enforcement of those laws onto the police instead of inspection stations. If an officer sees a car that's unsafe, it gets a ticket. Personally, I think the police have enough to do without this burden, and I'm struggling to understand how police get the xray vision they need to see if brakes and suspension components are worn, but that's the law.

Third, it is still illegal under FEDERAL law to tamper with or remove any factory installed emissions equipment. This applies whether your car is one day old or 50 years old. No, there has never been a case of a private citizen being cited under this law, but it is the law nonetheless. Some states (like VA) have recently modified their safety inspection criteria to include a visual inspection of the emissions equipment, even on cars that are exempt from emissions testing. The result is a failure of the safety inspection for lack of emissions equipment.
im not speaking about old cars with egr valve and evap canisters. i'm talking about the new cars that constantly come in the shop with codes related to emissions equipment. i didnt mean poorly as in robbing them from performance on paper. I meant poorly in the practical day to day performance. its got nothing to do with people ripping stuff off or maintaining them poorly. Its everything to due with the complexity and the chances for many different components to fail, making the car run inefficient. the more complex, more chances for failure. i've seen mechanics have to drive a car nealy 500 miles to finally get a code cleared... how is having to run a car through a drive cycle, burning up that much more gas and causing that much more pollution good for the environment? as far as catalytic converter, i've never seen a straight pipe clog.

MD has pushed for police to enforce things due largely in part to the car events that take place in ocean city. more specifically the tuner events.

the feds can get bent the day they single out a single citizen. we are the idiots who havent done something already. A nation full of car and bike enthusiats could shut down the beltway with no problem.

most things related to tree hugging are not based in actual results but in money grabbing schemes and political smoke screens. take the recycling program for example. sounds great (and i do believe there is some merrit to it) BUT instead of one diesel spewing garbage truck you have TWO diesel spewing garbage trucks collecting garbage. They never wanna explain that. they also dont wanna explain the extra facilities that are running,using electricity and other resources. They never explain the "footprint" the recycling process has on the environment. The only want the dummies to see the facade of it and them to believe that. Same thing with electric cars. From the craddle to the grave, a prius has a more detramental impact on the environment than a hummer.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 08:50 AM   #101
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While it's all good in theory, the last I read about it (which may have been a couple of years ago), there was no evidence that states with mandatory safety inspections had a lower incidence of equipment-failure-caused accidents than states with mandatory inspections.
New Jersey has not had mandatory inspections for at least three years now - do you hear horror stories about how unsafe Jersey cars are?

Combine this with the practical fact that in many, if not all, states, the annual safety inspection is essentially a blank check for disreputable repair shops to defraud customers (yes, I've had coworkers who were mystified as to why they needed four new shocks, every year, for $1,200 each time), and I would be happy to see mandatory inspections go the way of the dodo bird.

- Eric
and thats why i believe it should be more general. you shouldnt have people driving the roads with bald tires, burned out lights, no brake lining and cars ready to fall apart. I drove my grandmothers lesabre to get gas and gave the suspension a quick side to side test and the struts were so bad it nearly threw me off the road. I wouldnt give her the keys back until we got new ones. mandatory isnpections have some merrit. A national baseline needs to be established.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 08:55 AM   #102
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I drove my grandmothers lesabre to get gas and gave the suspension a quick side to side test and the struts were so bad it nearly threw me off the road.
Ha ha. I drove my father in law's car once, gave the brakes a good tap to test them, and popped a rusty brake line.

And that was in a state that requires annual safety inspections, and that focuses on brake lines.

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Old January 14th, 2017, 06:34 PM   #103
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There are two points here....

Quote:
Originally Posted by 88 Cutty Classic View Post
you speak as only a state trooper would speak in regards to the program. i would probably be better off banging my head off a wall but i will say though, I have received information contrary to yours straight from the mouth of the QAO who inspects the inspection place i use in regards to the visual portion. basically he stated 175.80 D doesnt specifically address emissions exempt vehicles and neither does 175.4. there is nothing in 175.80 that says if a car is exempt that it still needs to pass the visual. there is also nothing that says it doesnt need to pass the visual. its a gray area that is subject to interpretation. In otherwords an Inspector can interpret the vehicles emissions exemption sticker as an exemption from the visual check because its done during the emissions test. ref 177.201-6. If its exempt in the emssions test, its exempt in the inspection according to his interpretation. It may be implied but its not specifially called out.
I admit that since we effectively have 4 tiers since the philly MSA has an additional requirement, there is some murk. But if you were a judge, deciding a case you would look at this: as crazy as some laws may seem, the over riding authority would be the EPA rules. The EPA rules govern EVERY SINGLE ON ROAD USE in the USA, when off private property and this has been tested in court. Therefore a judge would look at what the likelihood that in the most stringent MSA in PA as mandated by the EPA, there be a loophole to allow an owner to be in violation of federal law.

There would not be. As I said before, just because enforcement is the pits (every local, state LEO and constable is authorized at the federal level to seize *and destroy* any of those rolling coal pickup trucks and it would not violate a due process clause.) does not mean it ceases to be law.

Nextly,
Quote:
as for the emissions program's value, its the biggest farce laid on the people of Pennsylvania. If you do not favor the dropping of it you basically favor a tax on the people. thats exactly what it is. It serves no value. the test itself is a complete joke. Emissions control equipment itself is the number 1 cause of vehicals running poorly and inefficient. The Safety inspection on the other hand is something i fully agree with. we dont need the crap running around PA that Ohio has. the specific call outs of it are a lil much. Its needs to be more general in many areas of it. the main areas that should be checked is functioning lights, structural integrity, tires, brakes, restraints, engine operation. Vehicle saftey should be a general federal standard. I do quality control for nuclear. our quality program has to be in line with the NRC (10CFR 50 Appendix B) for passenger vehicles they should set a federal guideline that states need to meet.
While people may disagree with all parts of the EPA - mostly because they just seem so damn inconvenient - it would be hard, nay impossible to make a case how a roll back of current law would be an improvement or win.

You can make the case that modern technology has enabled vehicles to far far exceed their ancestors with power and economy and lo and behold, they do it cleanly. How would it be a win to roll THAT back? While getting cleaner each tier, the OEMs have increased power and mileage. if you do not recall that the 'sweet smell' of the 70s was in fact proven dangerous to human life, its simply because you were not alive then. When I walk the carlisle show at 5pm as the classics head to the hotels, it brings back memories of pittsburgh in the 70's and the waning muscle cars. But in all instances we have it better today without the environmental damage - so again, how is rolling back tier 1/2/3/4 etc a win? case in point, any dodge hellcat is worth the net hp of any 3 w30 cars from the 60's. any dodge hellcat will get at least twice the mileage and it would take at least 100 hellcats running at the same time to equal the spew of 1 w30. Asthetics aside, explain to me how we have lost?

As for failures, you might not understand failure data. In the 90's, there was a sizeable brouhaha over the failure of AXOD trannys in 89-91 (87-92 wide range) tarui. The failure rate withing 100K miles was 1 per 100 which was unheard of. put into perspective, an unacceptable rate, such that the NHSTA was involved was 1 out of 100. The rate for cancer in a simliar human scale lifetime is 33/100. Are you bitching about that?

typically, any failure in todays car controls are on the order of a fraction of a percent. the factory level quality control is generally six sigma. road population considered, if emission control failures happened at 1%, given the number of cars on the road, every shop in the USA would be backlogged for a YEAR on the controls alone, and nothing else, not even oil changes would occur. Do we have that situation?

so no, I am not in favor of dropping the PA testing law. if you recall, I and the other station owners lobbied for it to be more realistic, to rely more on the on board diagnostics, to let IT point out the faults, then test. only some PA MSAs do the on board test. And a driving factor was that the machines had to be state approved and for some mysterious reason, the state approved ones were the $100K machines and the ones that do that same and work as good using a USB port on your laptop you can get off friggin amazon. THAT is the real injustice, not that the testing must occur.

The original federal plan was to use the new (at the time) onstar technology to have a failing machine 'phone home' like other items do (computers for example) and using the locator and level of severity to schedule an appointment.

we didnt get that.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 06:35 PM   #104
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I think I just decided that I'm not moving to Pennsylvania.

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we dont tax retirement
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Old January 14th, 2017, 06:42 PM   #105
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we dont tax retirement
I'll be dead before that's relevant.

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Old January 14th, 2017, 07:02 PM   #106
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While it's all good in theory, the last I read about it (which may have been a couple of years ago), there was no evidence that states with mandatory safety inspections had a lower incidence of equipment-failure-caused accidents than states with mandatory inspections.
New Jersey has not had mandatory inspections for at least three years now - do you hear horror stories about how unsafe Jersey cars are?

Combine this with the practical fact that in many, if not all, states, the annual safety inspection is essentially a blank check for disreputable repair shops to defraud customers (yes, I've had coworkers who were mystified as to why they needed four new shocks, every year, for $1,200 each time), and I would be happy to see mandatory inspections go the way of the dodo bird.

- Eric
a failure does not have to end in accident to still be a failure. an inspection program points out which parts are close to failure, and which parts have failed but you still run. rivets into the rotors is when most states sell a new rotor. there is no chance of a repair. and the chance of unscrupulousness is far less in an established state. if I claim to you your brakes need replaced, I *have* to note what they are at. the law is unambiguous on the limit. same with tires. and other parts that people, not even enthusiasts check.

and that fact is, people less and less do *any* maint on their car, it got to the point that cars now tell you when to do maint. today, for the vast vast majority of the population, a car is a disposable item. it is not treasured or valued. the boneyards are not full of modern cars because they were built faulty. they are full of modern cars because they were not cared for.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 07:04 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by joe_padavano View Post
I can't speak for PA laws, and I guess by now the only relationship between this discussion and the original question about Carlisle is that it's held in PA...

... BUT, there are a few misconceptions here.

First, if one really believes that "Emissions control equipment itself is the number 1 cause of vehicals running poorly and inefficient", then explain how modern cars can be compliant with far more stringent emissions requirements, make 500-700 HP, and get better gas mileage than any classic musclecar? The reality is that poor maintenance and owners who blindly rip equipment off without understanding what it does are the causes. Take EGR for example. The EGR valve is only active during part throttle cruise. It has ZERO effect at wide open throttle. Or what about the evap cannister that people always want to rip out? And modern honeycomb cats are no more restrictive than a section of straight pipe. Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that emission equipment is the problem. Ignorance is the problem.

Second, I can see both sides of the safety inspection issue. Annual inspections are only valid until the car drives out of the inspection station. Do you really think nothing is going to break for the next year. MD still has laws requiring equipment on the car to be safe, but they have pushed enforcement of those laws onto the police instead of inspection stations. If an officer sees a car that's unsafe, it gets a ticket. Personally, I think the police have enough to do without this burden, and I'm struggling to understand how police get the xray vision they need to see if brakes and suspension components are worn, but that's the law.

Third, it is still illegal under FEDERAL law to tamper with or remove any factory installed emissions equipment. This applies whether your car is one day old or 50 years old. No, there has never been a case of a private citizen being cited under this law, but it is the law nonetheless. Some states (like VA) have recently modified their safety inspection criteria to include a visual inspection of the emissions equipment, even on cars that are exempt from emissions testing. The result is a failure of the safety inspection for lack of emissions equipment.
well said



ps: part of carlisle is now held in FL
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Old January 15th, 2017, 07:14 AM   #108
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There are two points here....



I admit that since we effectively have 4 tiers since the philly MSA has an additional requirement, there is some murk. But if you were a judge, deciding a case you would look at this: as crazy as some laws may seem, the over riding authority would be the EPA rules. The EPA rules govern EVERY SINGLE ON ROAD USE in the USA, when off private property and this has been tested in court. Therefore a judge would look at what the likelihood that in the most stringent MSA in PA as mandated by the EPA, there be a loophole to allow an owner to be in violation of federal law.

There would not be. As I said before, just because enforcement is the pits (every local, state LEO and constable is authorized at the federal level to seize *and destroy* any of those rolling coal pickup trucks and it would not violate a due process clause.) does not mean it ceases to be law.

Nextly,


While people may disagree with all parts of the EPA - mostly because they just seem so damn inconvenient - it would be hard, nay impossible to make a case how a roll back of current law would be an improvement or win.

You can make the case that modern technology has enabled vehicles to far far exceed their ancestors with power and economy and lo and behold, they do it cleanly. How would it be a win to roll THAT back? While getting cleaner each tier, the OEMs have increased power and mileage. if you do not recall that the 'sweet smell' of the 70s was in fact proven dangerous to human life, its simply because you were not alive then. When I walk the carlisle show at 5pm as the classics head to the hotels, it brings back memories of pittsburgh in the 70's and the waning muscle cars. But in all instances we have it better today without the environmental damage - so again, how is rolling back tier 1/2/3/4 etc a win? case in point, any dodge hellcat is worth the net hp of any 3 w30 cars from the 60's. any dodge hellcat will get at least twice the mileage and it would take at least 100 hellcats running at the same time to equal the spew of 1 w30. Asthetics aside, explain to me how we have lost?

As for failures, you might not understand failure data. In the 90's, there was a sizeable brouhaha over the failure of AXOD trannys in 89-91 (87-92 wide range) tarui. The failure rate withing 100K miles was 1 per 100 which was unheard of. put into perspective, an unacceptable rate, such that the NHSTA was involved was 1 out of 100. The rate for cancer in a simliar human scale lifetime is 33/100. Are you bitching about that?

typically, any failure in todays car controls are on the order of a fraction of a percent. the factory level quality control is generally six sigma. road population considered, if emission control failures happened at 1%, given the number of cars on the road, every shop in the USA would be backlogged for a YEAR on the controls alone, and nothing else, not even oil changes would occur. Do we have that situation?

so no, I am not in favor of dropping the PA testing law. if you recall, I and the other station owners lobbied for it to be more realistic, to rely more on the on board diagnostics, to let IT point out the faults, then test. only some PA MSAs do the on board test. And a driving factor was that the machines had to be state approved and for some mysterious reason, the state approved ones were the $100K machines and the ones that do that same and work as good using a USB port on your laptop you can get off friggin amazon. THAT is the real injustice, not that the testing must occur.

The original federal plan was to use the new (at the time) onstar technology to have a failing machine 'phone home' like other items do (computers for example) and using the locator and level of severity to schedule an appointment.

we didnt get that.
i dont believe that 1% failure statistic for 1 second. maybe the part of PA you are from shops favor it so they can rape customers but the shops over here on the west of PA see the emissions program as a hassel and a complete waste of their time. Its getting damn near impossible to find a shop that has the machine to test the cars 95 and older and for that PA is as crooked as it comes. I will say it again, the test is a joke. Especially when you have large trucks just spewing into the air all day every day with no reprocussion from it. its a tax, plain and simple.

Once upon a time there was an air quality index in pittsburgh. They had a meter that would measure the index everyday so they could report it. you know where they had that meter? it was hung on the city county building in pittsburgh right next to a bus stop so that every 2 minutes a bus was blowing diesel smoke right into the meter. Thats the kinda of BS tactics that are used to further a political agenda.

I believe in "environmental damage" but clearly differently than you do. Co2 emissions from cars is not causing climate changes, never has and never will. The places that cars roam in concentration are just specs on this big blue marble. Damage to me is done on a much smaller scale. Things like dumping trash, polluting local waters, etc. NOT things like melting the polar ice caps. That grand scale stuff is natural earth changes. How elses can the end of ice ages be explained? there were no man-made emissions to cause global warming or climate change or whatever the left is calling it this year. I honestly don't care about the enviroment. what I mean when i say that is i really dont give a crap about 10 generations down the line based on what money driven politicians say MIGHT happen. On the other hand i'm not someone who throws trash on the ground, dumps into streams and lakes, burns their garabge, etc. Im going to drive my cars with absolutely no particular place to go and not feel one ounce of guilt.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 10:47 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by quaddriver View Post
this applies only to the counties in which the OBD testing is done and a visual is still required. (that in itself is only exempt if the car is classic or antique or street rod in which the aforementioned mileage/use restrictions are in place.
Every shop I've ever used in PA (and that's in 3 different counties) exempt cars from emissions inspection if they have gone less than 5k miles in the last year. We're talking normal every day daily drivers no special tags.

There is a caveat however, before a car can pass under this method it has to at least pass clean once. So if you buy a OBD2 car from another state it has to pass the first year you inspect it here and then if you stay under 5k miles between then & the next year, they can exempt you. The sticker they give you even says "EXEMPT" on it in big bold letters.

If you're buying it from an in-state seller then it hinges on whether the inspection has lapsed & how many miles have been put on it since then. I have bought a car from a PA seller with valid inspection, with say 3k miles on it since then, and was able to go straight to the exemption sticker. If the inspection lapses or if the seller put 5,001 miles on it since they had it inspected, then you're starting over again.

They still do a visual emissions inspection but it is a "required part is present" test not a "required parts are there and functional/working" test. Nobody is going to care if you have a 70s-80s car with a broken airpump system on the engine. If the system is there, it will pass. Clogged EGR? Same deal.

So what this means is if you have an OBD2 car and never take it 5k miles in a year, you can pass with the CES light on & error codes logged into the computer. But if you drive it more than that per year you need that light off & no codes present. They'll fail you just for having the CES bulb out.

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I think I just decided that I'm not moving to Pennsylvania.

- Eric
PA has a lot of good and bad things going for it. The political corruption is one of the biggest drawbacks (this is the same state where two judges were convicted of taking bribes to send little kids to private juvie prisons), second only to the jobs situation (the state has been hemorrhaging jobs since the steel industry went belly up).

But on the flip side, only CA comes out above PA in terms of how active the local car scene is. Probably one of the busiest states other than California out there when it comes to cruise nights, clubs, shows, etc. IDK how things are in the western part of the state but on the east coast you could be doing something most days of the week May-Oct if you are into that kind of a thing. Then if you're up for driving some distance away you've got Philly, NYC and NJ's events all close enough for day trips.

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Originally Posted by joe_padavano View Post
explain how modern cars can be compliant with far more stringent emissions requirements, make 500-700 HP, and get better gas mileage than any classic musclecar? The reality is that poor maintenance and owners who blindly rip equipment off without understanding what it does are the causes. Take EGR for example. The EGR valve is only active during part throttle cruise. It has ZERO effect at wide open throttle. Or what about the evap cannister that people always want to rip out? And modern honeycomb cats are no more restrictive than a section of straight pipe. Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that emission equipment is the problem. Ignorance is the problem.
This is a complicated can of worms.

On a modern car removing the emissions equipment would be a futile attempt at insanity since these systems are what the computer uses to control the car. If you go removing o2 sensors or modding an exhaust system in such a way that they are no longer making accurate readings, you're going to take a heavy performance hit.

The problem comes when the parts to keep these systems operable dries up. Which happens. There are a number of 90s GM cars that you can no longer get certain computers or computer modules for. They no longer exist. GM no longer makes them and the NOS supply has dried up.

So then what? If you try to get the engine to run without them, there is no way to do so that is emissions-legal. You can't go cutting the top of the intake to bolt a quad-jet to it. You can't put it on a megasquirt. You're left buying junkyard parts (while they're still out there- there's quickly disappearing) and hoping they are still okay or you could use a 3rd party rebuilt module that is in violation of US intellectual property law (due to the proprietary chips & software these board rebuilders are not licensed by GM to touch). Take a look at the nightmare LT1 people are having between VATs and Optaspark.

I know of an EE (electrical engineer) with an early OB2 GM car in a location (NOT in the US) where emissions inspection requires dyno'ing the car with a tailpipe sniffer. His car wouldn't pass. EGR system was to blame. Essentially GM designed the EGR system for the engine as it left the factory, and then as the engines aged and got mileage put on them the EGR system wouldn't be able to keep up with the wear tolerances, and tailpipe emissions would start climbing. No solution. Its a design flaw not a part failure. No part to replace. You could replace the entire EGR system, every single part, with NOS AC Delco parts and the car would still fail. Well this guy is an EE so he designed his own EGR system and that's the only way he could bring down his emissions to where the car would pass.

But in the United States, this would be a federal felony (tampering with emissions equipment) even though he was a 1- a professional who actually 2- decreased his car's emissions output to below factory conditions. Anyone in his position in the US would basically have to crush their car or do an engine swap for something newer like an LS, that does not suffer from such a design defect.

So this cuts both ways.

Watch it for yourself if you don't believe me:
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Old January 16th, 2017, 02:17 PM   #110
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But on the flip side, only CA comes out above PA in terms of how active the local car scene is. Probably one of the busiest states other than California out there when it comes to cruise nights, clubs, shows, etc. IDK how things are in the western part of the state but on the east coast you could be doing something most days of the week May-Oct if you are into that kind of a thing. Then if you're up for driving some distance away you've got Philly, NYC and NJ's events all close enough for day trips.

there are crusies every night of the week if you live in pittsburgh. In fact up until last year we had the largest weekly cruise east of the mississippi. (starlite cruise, wexford PA) they have gotten 3000 cars on their opening nights in years past. and average friday night thou is about 600-800.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 05:40 PM   #111
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i dont believe that 1% failure statistic for 1 second. maybe the part of PA you are from shops favor it so they can rape customers but the shops over here on the west of PA see the emissions program as a hassel and a complete waste of their time. Its getting damn near impossible to find a shop that has the machine to test the cars 95 and older and for that PA is as crooked as it comes. I will say it again, the test is a joke. Especially when you have large trucks just spewing into the air all day every day with no reprocussion from it. its a tax, plain and simple.

Once upon a time there was an air quality index in pittsburgh. They had a meter that would measure the index everyday so they could report it. you know where they had that meter? it was hung on the city county building in pittsburgh right next to a bus stop so that every 2 minutes a bus was blowing diesel smoke right into the meter. Thats the kinda of BS tactics that are used to further a political agenda.

I believe in "environmental damage" but clearly differently than you do. Co2 emissions from cars is not causing climate changes, never has and never will. The places that cars roam in concentration are just specs on this big blue marble. Damage to me is done on a much smaller scale. Things like dumping trash, polluting local waters, etc. NOT things like melting the polar ice caps. That grand scale stuff is natural earth changes. How elses can the end of ice ages be explained? there were no man-made emissions to cause global warming or climate change or whatever the left is calling it this year. I honestly don't care about the enviroment. what I mean when i say that is i really dont give a crap about 10 generations down the line based on what money driven politicians say MIGHT happen. On the other hand i'm not someone who throws trash on the ground, dumps into streams and lakes, burns their garabge, etc. Im going to drive my cars with absolutely no particular place to go and not feel one ounce of guilt.
I dont even know where to begin to respond to each misgiving, so I likely wont. At this point, whats the point, however, I would like to point out, I was born and raised in pittsburgh. 1964 Mckeesport which was about as bad air quality as it ever got. We had an inversion layer once that killed a ton of people.

The air quality index is STILL measured and is STILL reported each day. In fact, weatherbug will send it to your phone via ap. The test stations are all over, the most prominent on top of Mt washington.

There was no false information put out about the conditions in pitt. I know, I was there. Most of what you consider water parks, upscale shopping and housing I knew as giant bessemer blast furnaces.

those murky gray pics of pittsburgh, pre-steel collapse, are not retouches.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 06:02 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by sgath92 View Post
Every shop I've ever used in PA (and that's in 3 different counties) exempt cars from emissions inspection if they have gone less than 5k miles in the last year. We're talking normal every day daily drivers no special tags.

There is a caveat however, before a car can pass under this method it has to at least pass clean once. So if you buy a OBD2 car from another state it has to pass the first year you inspect it here and then if you stay under 5k miles between then & the next year, they can exempt you. The sticker they give you even says "EXEMPT" on it in big bold letters.
Ho;ld on a sec, they do not issue an exempt sticker by just driving up. The law is perfectly clear that the inspector must go over the car FIRST, it is not a rubber stamp


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They still do a visual emissions inspection but it is a "required part is present" test not a "required parts are there and functional/working" test. Nobody is going to care if you have a 70s-80s car with a broken airpump system on the engine. If the system is there, it will pass. Clogged EGR? Same deal.
Did I or did I not say this, the tests are a 'performance' test, the visual is an 'existence' test.

I am also not saying that everything that is law is being enforced, I know for a fact that it is not.

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The problem comes when the parts to keep these systems operable dries up. Which happens. There are a number of 90s GM cars that you can no longer get certain computers or computer modules for. They no longer exist. GM no longer makes them and the NOS supply has dried up.

So then what? If you try to get the engine to run without them, there is no way to do so that is emissions-legal. You can't go cutting the top of the intake to bolt a quad-jet to it. You can't put it on a megasquirt. You're left buying junkyard parts (while they're still out there- there's quickly disappearing) and hoping they are still okay or you could use a 3rd party rebuilt module that is in violation of US intellectual property law (due to the proprietary chips & software these board rebuilders are not licensed by GM to touch). Take a look at the nightmare LT1 people are having between VATs and Optaspark.
what year are you having trouble with? for grins I looked at the least desirable 80's car, and the most desirable and found ECMs for both.

The chips used to make them are public sourced and still available - even counterfeit, and the cal paks are just some sort of x-prom that still exists, and you can make your own with $10 of ebay hardware

AS for vats, hundreds of people, even me on this website, have published the defeat for vats and optispark is a hard part problem. gm themselves have put out parts to allow you to use a more conventional dizzy.

Quote:
I know of an EE (electrical engineer) with an early OB2 GM car in a location (NOT in the US) where emissions inspection requires dyno'ing the car with a tailpipe sniffer. His car wouldn't pass. EGR system was to blame. Essentially GM designed the EGR system for the engine as it left the factory, and then as the engines aged and got mileage put on them the EGR system wouldn't be able to keep up with the wear tolerances, and tailpipe emissions would start climbing. No solution. Its a design flaw not a part failure. No part to replace. You could replace the entire EGR system, every single part, with NOS AC Delco parts and the car would still fail. Well this guy is an EE so he designed his own EGR system and that's the only way he could bring down his emissions to where the car would pass.
I would ask if he knows what an egr is and does. There is no 'keeping up' required. 'early obd2' is 96, there were few gm cars 94 and 95 with most of the hardware in place. im not trying to be a smart ***, but its more likely a lack of understanding how the system actually works. the valve per se, is the output mechanism. to understand I would recommend a ford (yes ford) book by charlie probst that details emission strategy's and why what is done is done.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 07:33 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by 88 Cutty Classic
i've never once heard someone take that overly critical response. Thats probably the most absurd thing i will read all day.
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Originally Posted by 88 Cutty Classic
Same thing with electric cars. From the craddle to the grave, a prius has a more detramental impact on the environment than a hummer.
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Originally Posted by 88 Cutty Classic
mandatory isnpections have some merrit. A national baseline needs to be established.
There's some irony in that all three of those statements are in the same thread by the same author.
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Old January 17th, 2017, 05:10 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by quaddriver View Post
I dont even know where to begin to respond to each misgiving, so I likely wont. At this point, whats the point, however, I would like to point out, I was born and raised in pittsburgh. 1964 Mckeesport which was about as bad air quality as it ever got. We had an inversion layer once that killed a ton of people.

The air quality index is STILL measured and is STILL reported each day. In fact, weatherbug will send it to your phone via ap. The test stations are all over, the most prominent on top of Mt washington.

There was no false information put out about the conditions in pitt. I know, I was there. Most of what you consider water parks, upscale shopping and housing I knew as giant bessemer blast furnaces.

those murky gray pics of pittsburgh, pre-steel collapse, are not retouches.
1964 is not 1980..... by the late 70s early 80's when the meter was hung on the court house, there was virtually ZERO activity in the city limits. That was the meter for the entire county then. today they are all over but i'm speaking back in the primative time of all this enviromnetal stuff. I'm also not absent of the fact that the area known as the waterfront was once mills that basically won WWII. I could walk there from my house in about 15 mins. In the 50s and 60s you couldnt put your white laundry out without fear that it would be covered in sut but that was basically gone in the decades folowing. Those bumpers for nationally televised football games about pittsburgh , showing steel mills, havent been accurate for dang near 40 years now.

So when you have a meter measuring air quality above a bus stop you will constantly show a false representation of what the true air quality is. I had no reason to save it, but there was a Pittsburgh Press or post gazette article about this meter and we covered it in our physics class in high school.

they have tighned the standards on so many things in this country to skew the numbers. The air in this area is cleaner than its been prior to the industrial revolution but the baseline standard has become more strict so it seems like its not gotten better. its not different than this whole concussion thing in the NFL. concussions are on the rise because they have tightened the standard. another one is autism. Today it seems as if every kid has autism. its a true diservice to the people actually do have a real problem to lump in all these other kids just because they lowered the standard. people cant accept they raisied a bad child so they need a label for it to make them feel beter about themselves.

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There's some irony in that all three of those statements are in the same thread by the same author.
prove to me a prius is not.. its drive life is only part of its enviromental footprint. An earlier gen prius may go through through a few sets of batteries in its life. People will look at a hummer and get these visions of black smoke pouring from it in relation to a hummer but cO2 emissions is only one way a car has an enviromental impact. those batteries that are in a prius are full of harmful chemicals and the footprint to manufacture and then eliminate on the other end is larger than the over all footprint of a hummer. Some market research company tried to put out and article comparing a prius to a hummer. "Dust to Dust" is widely known to be a joke scientifically speaking. Its full of lies and what experts say "bad science"

what is a ironic about believing there should be a national SAFETY standard? you think people should be out on the roads with bald tires and burned out lights? the whole emissions program is a joke and is nothing more than the overreaching arm of the gov but a realistic saftey standard would be something that actually serves the people of this country.
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Old January 17th, 2017, 04:26 PM   #115
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I'm not required to prove to you anything. You're the one that made the claim; you back it up. I will give you a couple data points. Many Prius cabs are on 300,000 miles, with the original battery. The batteries, upon demise of the car or failure of the battery, are recycled, and Toyota puts a new battery in for you for a reasonable price. The mine that the environmentalists like to cite as a natural disaster, has been a nickel mine for hundreds of years and most of the damage occurred in the 70s. The material purchased for the batteries is about 0.5% in the document I read of the mine's yearly current output, so blaming a Prius for that mine is like blaming you for the destruction of a landslide because you walked by the next day and tracked some mud places.

There's nothing ironic about believing there should be a national safety standard, the irony is from you commenting about reading absurd things, then thinking a national safety standard would help, which is absurd. National safety standards are bad for 3 reasons:

1. The government always screws things up.
2. A national level program would sink to the level of the most onerous program, think Illinois bullshit country wide, and that state sucks.
3. It has been shown that passing an inspection gives a false sense of security and causes more car problems "Oh, it's making noises, but it passed inspection just last month."
4. We already have police who pull people over for vehicle violations and issue tickets, and that is the way it should be: punish the offender, not the whole public via imposition of time lost and fees.
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Old January 17th, 2017, 05:05 PM   #116
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im 37 and enjoy a corcourse restoration as much as something that goes 9 secs. In Fact i realize how tedious it is to produce and maintain a judged car. to knock that on the merrit of going fast is as rude as what you accused myself and wr1970 of. Just because I have ONE car that i show for points doesnt mean i dont have 3 others that I beat the snot out of as well. Its pretty easy to open a catalog and order whatever you need aka the chevy mentality but there is something to be said for having an olds and hunting down those rare overpriced NOS parts. its part of the hobby thats enjoyable.

If Perfectly restored oldsmobiles in a parking lot bore you then maybe you arent really an Oldsmobile guy per se, but a gear head in general. nothing wrong with that. you could go fast in a pontiac or a ford and it would probably suit you just the same. I'm into oldsmobiles, the history, the numbers, all of it. Along with that comes sitting in parking lots talking about boring things like options and factory oddities. But just the same I had my Perfectly restored Hurst Olds at the drag strip at Nationals making passes against other stock cars. Its a bit of nostalgia to get cars like that and run them together. its not always about two guys arguing about who's faster...passively inciting rage in each other's hearts...being rude to one another.
You are wrong.
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Old January 18th, 2017, 05:05 AM   #117
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There's nothing ironic about believing there should be a national safety standard, the irony is from you commenting about reading absurd things, then thinking a national safety standard would help, which is absurd. National safety standards are bad for 3 reasons:

1. The government always screws things up.
2. A national level program would sink to the level of the most onerous program, think Illinois bullshit country wide, and that state sucks.
3. It has been shown that passing an inspection gives a false sense of security and causes more car problems "Oh, it's making noises, but it passed inspection just last month."
4. We already have police who pull people over for vehicle violations and issue tickets, and that is the way it should be: punish the offender, not the whole public via imposition of time lost and fees.
so bringing up the states who have zero safety inspections up to a nantional minimum is bad? Why would you want to creat more LEO and public interaction given the recent climate of stuff in this country. you wanna talk about a bad idea, THATS A BAD IDEA! I live near a state the has no inspection and their crap cars are all over the roads. A National standard would at least put some burden of accountibility on those vehicle owners. You shouldnt have daily driven cars with a 2x4 for a bumper. Another thing about LEOs is they are not mechanics. why would would you want people the may or may not know about vehicles to be enforcing things. I think they should be able to spot unsafe circumstances like a truck hauling a load thats not secured for example but they are not up underneath these cars to see what coud really be going on. ever try to steer a car that had the engine craddle break and the motor drop down on the steering? luckily i didnt because my state inspection caught the issue before it got to that.

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You are wrong.
thank you for the reply. God bless.

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Old January 18th, 2017, 05:20 AM   #118
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so bringing up the states who have zero safety inspections up to a nantional minimum is bad?
Personally, I think that's a state issue. The Federal government is involved in way too much already.


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You shouldnt have daily driven cars with a 2x4 for a bumper.
Why is it any business of yours if someone wants to use a 2x4 for a bumper?

I had a '71 GM pickup with a 2x8 for a bumper and it ran fine.

Of course, the lack of upper control arm bushings on the left side, and the rotors worn to where the brakes would not 100% apply weren't great, but the car was legally inspected in New York State, so who really cared?


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ever try to steer a car that had the engine craddle break and the motor drop down on the steering? luckily i didnt because my state inspection caught the issue before it got to that.
I put my cars up on a lift at least twice a year and check everything myself.

It's your car. Why would you trust someone else to tell you it's safe?


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Old January 18th, 2017, 06:38 AM   #119
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Personally, I think that's a state issue. The Federal government is involved in way too much already.



Why is it any business of yours if someone wants to use a 2x4 for a bumper?

I had a '71 GM pickup with a 2x8 for a bumper and it ran fine.

Of course, the lack of upper control arm bushings on the left side, and the rotors worn to where the brakes would not 100% apply weren't great, but the car was legally inspected in New York State, so who really cared?



I put my cars up on a lift at least twice a year and check everything myself.

It's your car. Why would you trust someone else to tell you it's safe?


- Eric
the government is involved in too much but vehicles driving on public roads is something that concerns just about everyone. I dont think its unreasonable of them to be involved in that. All i'm saying is their should be a federal minimum that all 50 states need to meet. that should apply to commercial vehicles too. im not sure if there is a standard or not already.

A 2x4 is not safety equipment. I can't even believe i'm answering that. You wanna use a 2x4, 2x8 or whatever bumper on a farm truck, i dont care , but traveling on public roads, no man. I realize cars in the past used wooden frames and other wooden parts but its not 70 years ago. Roads are far more congested.

thats great that you check your cars. I can fix my cars too but i'm also not a mechanic. I'm not stupid enough to do things i have no business doing. I have a job that i'm very good it and it has nothing to do with cars. Not every car guy has lift access. The larger point is most people are not car people . They have to trust someone. you trust the doctor to know things about you, right? I dont expect you to be a doctor so why should you expect others to be mechanics? Why would I trust that person to tell me car is safe? well thats their job and livelyhood. I take it some of you live under the notion the local garage is out to rip you off. I'm sure there are some that do. They usually dont last in the business very long doing bad work and ripping people off. The shop I go to has been in business for near 40 years. I trust them 110% and for good reason.

Its bad enough people dont know how to drive. we dont need them driving around 3000+ pound death traps.

Last edited by 88 Cutty Classic; January 18th, 2017 at 06:41 AM.
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