ent72olds

Yes it is......

Diego

So tell me how it's a good example.

Considering there's nothing on a fender that determines how a car was originally equipped, it seems to me it's quite a poor example.

oldcutlass

Exactly Diego, IMHO, nor does replacing the body, it's just a bigger piece. The Pedigree of this car is the frame, powertrain, and suspension. Without that it's just another Cutlass. So his repair is just replacing the body and having the vin match the frame and powertrain from the damaged car if I understand what the end result is supposed to be.

Diego

Nope - the pedigree is in the VIN and the data plate. Those two items show what the car is.

ent72olds

Diego.....you brought up the fender example....I used the roof skin as an example. I agreed with you that a fender was a bad example, thinking you realized your weak rebuttal. Remember, Mopars have fendertags, if we want to get technical. MOPAR was the example I used, but, referring to every panel that gets replaced on these high dollar restorations.

ent72olds

So again I ask.....if someone steals the data plate off your car, is the car now rendered parts?

Diego

So since you brought up Mopars, let's use this as an example:

Let's say you have a 1970 'Cuda with the standard 383. It originally was built with in FF4 paint, which is a med/light green metallic. What happens when you create a new fender tag that shows the color being FM3, popularly known as Panther Pink. Now the car is worth at least $5000 more.

Is that fair? Is that ethical?

So how is getting the fender tag from one vehicle that's dead and placing it on another body kosher in your world?

ent72olds

It's not kosher in my world, or ethical for that matter. The OP wants to re body his 442. The MOPAR example you use is someone making a blatant change to a tag for profit. Like I said in my original post, if the story goes with the car, what harm is there?

Now, if someone bought a tag off e bay, put it on a standard car, fixed the car to match the tag and sold it for big profit without telling the next owner, not cool!

Diego

I think the discussion, per the title, is to create a new data plate to place on the body that has its own data plate to begin with. It's an apples-to-apples comparison regardless whether someone does it for profit or not.

ent72olds

I have figured out a solution. Let Ed put the tag on the rebodied car, then, if it is ever to be sold, the original tag from the body should be put back on!

Diego, I still want to hear your opinion on my stolen tag scenario.....

Diego

A car missing its data plate or fender tag is worth less. This is old news.

ent72olds

I think you meant "missing the data plate or fender tag it was born with"....

Allan R

Uh, in 1967 you could only get a 442 based on the Cutlass Supreme 2 door bodies. I'm kind of missing your point here. On top of which, the f85 and Cutlass also had the same body styles available so what difference does it make about what body he's using? The trim and driveline will distinguish the car for what it's going to be.

Fisher produced the body, Olds produced the drivetrain, rolling chassis and exterior trim finish. In the end it was a marriage of chassis and body (still to this date). So rebodying this car isn't something that should be such a big deal.

Diego

Does the data plate show a car to be a 4-4-2? If the factory had its records, would the vehicle's identification and sequence number show it to be a 4-4-2?

Again, the replacement data plate is the identity for another car.

Koda

Replacement bodies were available from GM. Ipso facto, replacing a vin tag onto said body was legal, otherwise no replacement bodies would have been made because there would be no market.

hurst68olds

In most states, YES & by the letter of federal law YES!

Diego

You could go to your Oldsmobile dealership and get replacement bodies?

Again, you're missing the fact that changing the pedigree of a car is not kosher.

Koda

Apparently there's a part number for a body shell, so I assume they were sold to certain customers. You asked for evidence, and I provided. I don't believe I have made any comment on whether I approve of changing the pedigree of a car, although I will agree you know more about what kosher is than I do, courtesy of an epic ROP thread a few years ago.

Diego

You haven't really provided evidence.

Look - I'm not a one-man band here. This is a topic that has been beaten to death for numerous brands. All of them are the same: some people don't see anything wrong with it, while some people do. There's nothing that can be said that hasn't been said already - changing the pedigree of car is bad juju. Person after person has been grasping at straws trying to give an example why changing the pedigree of a car is okay, and no one has given a good example. Why should any of us with money to burn have to wonder whether the car we're looking at is what it's purported to be? I don't want to buy a 4-4-2 that was born a Cutlass, and I don't want to spend 4-4-2 money for a Cutlass. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this. It all depends on how much integrity you want to promote in your hobby.

67442nut

Allan,
Keep in mind my car was disassembled in 1971 and hasn't been on the road since.
I only drove it about a year.
I don't have any pics of the car before it was burned, but, this is a link to a recent eBay auction of
an identical car to mine except mine had SSI wheels and capacitive discharge ignition.
Mine also did not have power steering.
Otherwise this is a twin to my car.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oldsmobile-4...US_Cars_Trucks
I have pics of the aftermath of the fire. In fact, They should already be in my Photobucket library.
I've been having problems getting into Photobucket lately, but, I'll try.

66-3X2 442

Yes & that's what I have been trying to tell you. It's in the 66/67 Olds parts book under section 10.001 Body Shell. The factory looks @ the body shell as a replacement part just like a fender,door,hood etc. If you have a car with a damaged rear end section & is not repairable,you buy another body,cut the cowl out of the damaged car into the new body,is that the same as moving a vin tag to a new body shell? You keep saying that changing the pedigree of a car is wrong. What part of a car is the pedigree? is it the body?the frame,the engine? the windshield,the lug nuts? you get the point. You say changing the tag to a different color increases the value of a Mopar, probably true in some cases. By moving a vin & cowl tag to another body shell and doing the car just as the tags say isn't changing the pedigree. It's saving a car that would otherwise be history. If I'm understanding you,you're saying that every car out here needs to be just as it left the factory,nothing replaced,right?

Allan R

ok, back up a second. First, I'm with 66-3X2 442 on the topic of the rebody. His comments are logical and make sense. Yours don't.

Second - A data plate doesn't show anything to do with sequence of production. You above all should know the VIN and cowl tags are unrelated, so IMO if Ed wants to replicate the data tag on his car to what it was prior to the fire, that's totally legit. Another point that no one has mentioned but does occur. There are collector cars sold that are missing the cowl tag for whatever reason. They are not required for registration purposes, but are a reflection of original production. How many people do you think actually check the cowl tag when they're making a purchase. And how many of them do you think would give a rip if the paint code and interior didn't match what is in the car?? Not many unless they're die hard collectors. And if that's the case they probably wouldn't buy it. And since there are no factory records for US cars, who's going to argue - except you?

I really don't know how to read you on this. Are you saying that a reproduction cowl tag that matches the original 442 added to the cowl would give it the authenticity it needs to become 'real'? And since GM had rebody shells that were available, transfer of the VIN and cowl tag were merely procedural and legal issues at a body shop, what difference does it matter what body is used as a donor? If that's the case, I'm all for it. By your standards my car is obviously rebodied since it's had both front fenders, drivers door, front/rear bumpers, both quarter panels/trunk drop downs replaced even though it still has it's original VIN and cowl tag.

Ed - that eBay auction shows a stunning looking car. Have fun with the rebuild. I think you're on the right track with your decision making regardless of what's being argued in this thread.

Run to Rund

Ed is trying to complete the restoration of a real car that burned. He can show the melted cowl tag along with its replacement.


Not only did GM offer the body shell under Group 10.001, they also offered the frame under group 7.003. The frame was listed for all F85s in 66-7, with the only difference being standard or HD/convertible. A different frame was NOT listed for stick shift cars, nor for 4-4-2s. Thus, changing the frame would be acceptable practice according to GM, and on the line they even X'ed out incorrect VINs and re-stamped them as needed to match the body VIN tag.


We are left with this question: is a car fraudulent or a clone if you change the wheel covers to P01 covers, add a radio, or power steering? They were only options, right? Now lets add another option, in 1966 it would be L69 or L78. In fact, back then you could buy the complete engine for the L69 option, or just the conversion package to make an L78 quadrajet 4-4-2 into the L69 Tri-Carb 4-4-2. To add the option correctly to ANY F85 2-door, you would change the front fenders to the ones with coined holes for the "ornaments", add the springs, sway bars, etc. Now, is the result a "real" 4-4-2 or a clone? You said the car was real when you added a radio or wheel covers! If a Lansing car, the 5V on the cowl tag would tell you whether Fisher Body produced the body with 4-4-2 trim. 2L indicated the floor pan was set up for a Muncie 4 speed. If not a Lansing build, the cowl tag didn't say.


I can see someone saying that most dealer or owner added options are not defining the car, and usually that is different from the "identity" that the 4-4-2 option imparts. So, real might imply that the car was built exactly that way, or might it imply that only some features were built into it? So could your 4-4-2 be a real 4-4-2 but a cloned red one, if it came with white paint from the factory?

TK-65

Is anyone else tired of hearing about a cars pedigree? A car is not a pure bred animal. It doesn't have lineage. A 66 442 is not the sire of a 67 442.

Allan R

Yes.

tru-blue 442

[QUOTE=Run to Rund;757985]Ed is trying to complete the restoration of a real car that burned. He can show the melted cowl tag along with its replacement.

I see nothing wrong with this. Go for it Ed. Have fun. It still has pedigree.

pogo69

If you dont have proof of the original data tag like a picture of it before the fire then no way should a fake data tag be reinstalled on a new body fake fake fake

Koda

The lesson I learned here is not to bring something like this up, ever.

67442nut

Rebodying an existing, original car makes it a fake???!!!
YOU quite obviously base your conclusion on nothing more than jumping to a conclusion.
I guess since you have a Hurst, you're among the Oldsmobile elite making it permissible
for you to judge regardless of the facts.

67442nut

Yep, I shoulda tracked down the trim tag people on my own and avoided the "holier than thou" horse shyte.

67442nut

Alan, these are the only pics I have of the car, or should I say remains of the car? This was November, 1994.
I know these won't satisfy pogo69, but, that is far from a huge concern to me anyhow.
My ex-best friend has some nice pics taken right after I had put a new set of Cragars on it back in '70.
I've often considered approaching him about getting copies, but, I haven't spoken to him in years and
we did not part on the best of terms,
so that will probably never happen.

TK-65

Post #6

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...tml#post755992

Koda

Charlie Jones

The OP mentioned getting a new trim tag AND moving his VIN plate to a different body.
I believe the VIN tag move is the one that has the potential for legal trouble.
I know that I personally would NEVER buy a car with a VIN plate held on with hardware store pop rivits.

66-3X2 442

The correct rivets are available and are spot on correct.Once the vin tag is attached,there is absolutely no way to tell. The police are looking for car thieves,not car restorers.

Olds Dad

The OP got his answer, the peanut gallery had their say; I would suggest to the Moderators to close this thread because, frankly, I'm tired of seeing it on the top of the "New Posts" every time I open CO. I'm willing to bet I'm not alone.

pogo69

I don't consider my views as being ''peanut gallery'' and I don't complain about posts that don't interest me either ....the issue I have is putting a tag on a car that you can't prove belongs there

RandyS

x 20,000

66-3X2 442

This is what I do when I see a thread/topic I don't have interest in. I do not read it,a novel idea don't you think?

pogo69

I agree on that