MDchanic

That's very strange.

If all components are known good, then it must be a connection.

I can guarantee you this: When you figure it out, it'll be the simplest thing in the world.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Just for grins, try running a jumper wire from the battery+ to the batt terminal on the distributor and see if it will start. If you have a tach disconnect it.

1970-W30

Since you are in Tucson, why not take as drive up to Gilbert and I'll sell you my working HEI for $40 that includes the plug wires and cap. Has been under the bench for a year, was working fine when I pulled it. It's coded 1103210 date 6A20
Harold

My2nd 69 442

Harold I just may take you up on your offer. Right now I just need to let my frustration settle down and get back after it another time. I really wanted to drive it tomorrow, but that's not gonna happen. Please PM me your address or you can drive to Tucson and I'll supply the beer.(lol)

My2nd 69 442

Eric per your post #42 I just now did that and I have spark on the #1 plug with my in line spark tester If you recall in my post #14 voltage was dropping to 10.2 VDC during crank. I did not try setting the timing yet with wire directly to batt I want to find the correction why the voltage drop during crank from the ign switch. Any ideas where to look? Wife and I leaving soon so I wont be back at it till Sunday evening or Monday.
Thanks for all the help and WE will get this fixed

MDchanic

The voltage at a charged battery with no load should be about 12.5V.

Voltage at the battery while cranking may be 11 or 11.5, or even 10.5 if the weather is cold.

A voltage drop of 0.5V through the battery cable through the starter connections, through the horn relay connections, through the ignition switch, through the firewall connector to the distributor, and then through the ground cable back to the battery, is not unusual, and in an older car like ours, considering the effects of small amounts of corrosion, a drop of 1V would not be out of line, especially while cranking.

Since the engine was designed to be able to start on a cold day with a low battery, a voltage of 10.2V at the HEI while cranking should not be a problem.

The problem comes when you are supplying voltage to the HEI through the ballast resistor, and running voltages are around 8V.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Actually a fully charged battery should be around 12.7. The 10.2v drop I would think is because of the starter load. Did you also have a tach that you disconnected? It may be a bad connection somewhere that opens up as the circuit loads. Disconnect the jumper wire before you go.

My2nd 69 442

Eric My batt voltage is aprox 12.5 vdc and I did not check voltage this last time during crank but I keep a Battery Tender on it at all times when not driving and the Batt is nearly new. I dont think cold weather has any thing to do with it as it's nearly 100* today here in Tucson and yes I have a Tic Toc Tach in the dash which I disconnected along with the Batt wire at dist when I jumpered in directly from Batt to Batt connector at the dist.
PO had installed a gizmo in the tach wiring in an attempt to get the tach reading correctly.
The Tach was then reading extremly low so I have removed his resister(gizmo) and spliced the Tach wire back together. Do you think that is possibly where my problem could be. Maybe I should solder the wire for tach rather than use a splice. At this point I'm game for most anything. I really dont want to disassemble the steering column chasing a problem. I stopped for the day after seeing spark on the in line tester. that made me happy

oldcutlass

It may be that your tach is causing the problem. When you get a chance, try starting it without the jumper and the tach disconnected.

My2nd 69 442

Eric I just now did as you suggested removed tach wire from dist connector and I have spark on the in line tester. I dont have time to mess with it anymore today so maybe tomorrow success can be found.and maybe the Tach needs to be sent out for overhaul.

oldcutlass

Like Eric said above... I'm glad we are moving in the right direction. It could have been the tach all along or something took the tach out.

My2nd 69 442

Yea really. I thought I was loosing my mind. I've been an aircraft mechanic for nearly 50 years and have never had an issue as strange as this. I was beginning to think that my old timers had set in. I'm very happy that WE are getting to the light at the end of the tunnel. Many thanks to all for your help

MDchanic

We have not isolated and confirmed the problem yet, but I will admit that I was at fault for not assuring that the unit had been isolated (tach disconnected, and, as Eric advised, power directly from the battery).
I just kind of ASSumed nothing else was connected to it.

- Eric

My2nd 69 442

I agree that we haven't corrected the issue just yet but with spark, I firmly believe that when time is available I should be able to get it running again.
Also to Harold. My wife said that I should offer gas money for you to bring your distributor to Tucson instead of offering you beer. I thought that was kinda funny as this post started out asking about fuel mileage and has ventured way away from that.

MDchanic

Wife doesn't understand.

Guy's trying to do you a favor. He doesn't want money - that'd be like trying to get something from you.
He'd take some beer, though, because that's a gesture of friendship.

Women think there's no subtlety in what guys do, but they're wrong.

Besides, you can pretty much exchange gas for beer and vice-versa anyway, at least in my house.

- Eric

My2nd 69 442

Eric. My comment was made in jest and my wife is the same. We will help anyone that we can whenever we can. I had no expectations of Harold bringing the dist to me I was only kidding, but I will supply beer for anyone who would like to visit.

MDchanic

I understand.

I was just responding to your depiction of a typical (though, in this case apocryphal) spousal misunderstanding: Husband makes symbolic offer of beer, and wife, reading over his shoulder, suggests offering cash.

The offer of beer is a gesture of friendship, whether actually completed or not, while the offer of money is a business transaction.

- Eric

My2nd 69 442

Well folks, success seems to have finally came to visit me. I got the 442 running and mostly timed this morning. I say mostly timed due to the fact that the distributor is now hitting the block at 23* BTDC and I can't get the timing any lower in it's present position.
It is set where it was previously and appeared to run good at that setting. It is currently lined up to the exact spot it previously was. Should I remove the distributor and re index it or just leave it along where it is.
I have not reconnected the tach wiring to see what results that gives me.
I want to offer my heart felt thanks especially to ERIC for you leading me thru this issue.

My2nd 69 442

My post #58 gave some erroneous information. It's the dist cap latch that is hitting the manifold.the latch is the latch between # 3 and 4 cyl wires. I'm very tempted to pull the dist to re-clock it so I have more adjust-ability, but I'm not exactly sure of which way to move the dist shaft to give me what I want.
Also I re-connected the Tach wiring at the dist and the car starts but the Tach is completely dead, so I've probably fried the tach. I disconnected and secured the Tach wiring at the dist till I can get the tach rebuilt.
What are your thoughts about this?

oldcutlass

Can't help you with the tach. You can move all the wires one notch right or left (whatever is needed) without removing the dist. to gain the proper adjustment. Glad your up and running.

truckman5000

Why would a tach issue cause a no start?

MDchanic

I've had it happen - short inside the tach (usually intermittent) grounds out the wire, killing the engine.

Can be a bear to figure out, until you do the obvious and disconnect the tach.

- Eric

truckman5000

Oh, i gotcha, makes sense thank you

oldcutlass

It doesn't happen very often, but like a bad condenser, can drive someone nuts.

My2nd 69 442

I may have built in a new issue. I set timing with Vac disconnected to 10* at 850 RPM and 25* @ 3500. Connect vac timing goes to 25* at 850 RPM and 52* at 3500.
Turn on AC car wants to die at idle and backfire thru carb on any acceleration.
I have also replaced Vac canister during one of the times that I had dist out with a adjustable Vac canister. Do I now have to much Vac advance? Adjuster will be a real bit@h to adjust without moving dist to give access to Vac nipple. I'm getting tired of this.
Also Eric as moderator should I open this in a new post as it has drifted way off the original topic.

oldcutlass

Yes, too much. For now disconnect it and advance your timing to 18* initial, then limit your current vacuum advance can to 10* with a stop or put in the old unit when you get a chance.

Koda

These threads migrate, so no issue on continuing it in my opinion, plus I am enjoying the tale of triumph over adversity.

I hadn't thought of indexing the wires one place around the cap, that's neat and I guess would buy you 45 deg of advance.

My2nd 69 442

Ok Eric I reset Initial to 18* with NO Vac @ 850 idle. Gave me 34* @ 3500RPM. With Vac connected I have 30* @ idle(850) had to reset idle down from 1200 RPM with Vac connected and 48 @3500 RPM. These numbers are with the original Vac Canister (non-adjustable) Tells me I have 12*advance @ idle and 14* @ 3500. Stlii coughs with AC on and idle drops to aprox 550RPM before it coughs and dies.
Should I set initial to 18* WITH Vac connected?

oldcutlass

You have to set your timing at a lower rpm closer to 600. Then raise the rpm enough to where it will idle in gear with the a/c on. Do not set it with the vac advance connected, your doing it correctly as posted above.

My2nd 69 442

Thanks again Eric. I'll get back after it tomorrow. When I walked into the house and couldn't straighten up, my wife ask me to stop for today. My old body can't go like it used to. Maybe the 3 major back surgeries have something to do with it.

oldcutlass

I have to load up on Advil before leaning over the fenders myself.

My2nd 69 442

Well folks, a new day has brought new results.
On initial start(with Vac disconnected, timing was a
@ 28* btdc @ 625 RPM idle. warmed up to normal operating temp and reset timing to 18* @idle 625. Did not check timing @ 3500. Reset idle to 900 RPM, timing stayed @18*. Connected Vac timing moved to aprox. 24*@900 and 40* @ 3500 RPM.
Idled back down to 900 turned on AC and idle dropped to Aprox 700-725 but seams to run smoothly and did not die. I'll take it out on the road a little later and see how it reacts. My neighbor hood roads are being Chip Sealed this morning so I don't want to drive it until that's complete.
Many,many thanks to Eric for his advice and suggestions and I'm hoping for the best.

oldcutlass

Just a note that the math your with vacuum numbers are not working in my head. You may have a bad vacuum can. Can you double check your initial at 600 rpm with and without vacuum and also your total at 3500 - 4500 rpm with and without vacuum. The reason I'm asking for you to check past 3500 is I want to make sure its not advancing any more.

My2nd 69 442

I just now rechecked timing and the numbers are as follows: NO Vac- @ 600 idle 18* and 33* at 3500 .With Vac 600 idle 18* and 41* @ 3500 AC NOT on. Ran Engine up to about 4200 RPM without any real change in setting, maybe 1* at most.
Turned AC on and required idle reset to bring idle back up to 650. Turn AC off Idle return to 925-950. After reset idle to 925-950 car seems to like it at this setting and I can live with it here. I may change Vac canister back to adjustable and shoot for +10-12 * advance Then I will recheck all settings.
Doesn't look like I will be driving car for a few days as the City just Chip Sealed my street with Tar and gravel. With my paint I don't want to drive it till that settles down some.
Eric I certainly appreciate all your help . Have a wonderful day. If you ever travel out West on I-10 please let me know. I would love to treat you and spouse to lunch and/or dinner and many beers and show off my toys.
I will update all when I can go out for a drive.

oldcutlass

Appreciate the offer to come visit. Its been a while since I was out your way.

My2nd 69 442

Eric.. I'm running 91 octane fuel, best local without buying Av-gas. and that's pretty expensive. I currently have timing set to 18* at 625 idle, 32* @ 3600 no Vac.
When I connect Vac idle goes to 825-850 and I cannot turn idle down any more with adjusting screw all the way backed out.
At the idle of 825 Vac connected my idle timing goes to 29 * and 53* at 3600 with no more advance at 4200. I'm having a very difficult time adjusting the Vac canister to get Vac advance at power any lower. Should I lower initial a couple degrees and then see what power setting is or is 53* ok at power with Vac connected ?

oldcutlass

Is you choke fully disengaged? Can you take a vacuum reading at idle from the port your vacuum advance is connected to, and also at 3600 with a vacuum gauge?

My2nd 69 442

Eric I've been out in the garage playing with it and I think that I may have finally got it where it will be ok. Latest readings as follows: No Vac idle 625 18* 3500 30* 4200 35*
Connect Vac idle 900 24* 3500 51* 4200 55*
Had to adj idle to 985 with Vac to keep running with AC on.
I've had to adj Vac canister almost to it's extreme counter-clockwise position internally to get the last set of readings. I'm gonna let everything cool down then I'll re-check all and get Vac gage readings at Vac port
Do you think that I still have to much advance at 4200?

oldcutlass

Fyi, adjusting the vacuum advance only sets the rate vs available vacuum. It does not limit the amount unless the spring pressure is higher than the available vacuum. You need to make or purchase a stop.

I was assuming your hooked to manifold vacuum but the readings in advance have me perplexed and thinking your connected to ported.

I would invest in an idle load compensator, a solenoid to bump the idle up when the A/C is on.

Read these 2 articles;
http://www.lbfun.com/warehouse/tech_...ance_Specs.pdf

http://www.lbfun.com/warehouse/tech_...I%20Tuning.pdf

Charlie Jones

A stock one with POINTS .