joe_padavano

BZZZZT.

Sorry, but thanks for playing. We have some fine parting gifts for you.

I'm sorry, but you've completely lost me here. P/N 10033867 is a small block CHEVY head that just happened to be sold over the counter as a "Pontiac" part, just like the Oldmobile-branded "rocket block" for use in Chevy-powered Olds and Pontiac bodied race cars, or the original DRCE. None of those parts ever graced a production car, unlike the Olds DX block.

By the way, if you want to talk about actual OLDSMOBILE engines in NASCAR (as opposed to SBCs with "Pontiac" on the valve cover", there's the Olds NASCAR block with Batten heads that was run by some guy with the initials "AJ" or something like that. And yes, those parts also had "Oldsmobile" part numbers on them.

wr1970

Joe P i am done with this thread because the quad d is plain lost in a different reality. He doesn't want to see this Engine as good ink for the brand. He wants to give no praise for the effort put out by those involved to make this engine possible to compete and then place very well.If he knew what the constraints are to build this engine for competition he should have a different view. Had he competed in such event then he would have a different view. I had no involvement in this engine.Congrats to those who were.

GEARMAN69

this may the prettiest thing on this site

quaddriver

um no, those were a gm supplier part that actually had pretty 'pontiacs' cast into each, not a bowtie. Oh wait, do you mean its odd that SBC and pontiac parts can oft switch? hmmm, mebbe I didnt choose those two makers so flippantly? what are the odds.

Point still remains, I can get factory parts (or could in this particular case) that were in some way, some how homogolated such that they ran the ovals. which ties right into my gripe form the start no?

of course I noticed the two other components were ignored. Im not trying to be difficult Joe, but painful as it may be, you gotta accept the truth. Like I said, it was 30 years ago when I saw the light. It has not gotten dimmer with time.

quaddriver

PS: you asked me to find parts that a 'mere mortal' could afford - whatever that means. I glanced thru my GMPP catalog and boinged on a nascar legal head sold today, and grabbed the price off jegs. It was substantially, like 35% cheaper, than an edelbrock OR TFS which is NOT nascar legal.

Mortals everywhere rejoice.

joe_padavano

Sorry, but you are flat wrong. First, no Pontiac and Chevy architecture parts "switch" They are completely different motors with different dimensions, bore spacings, and castings. The only things in common are the distributor cap and carb gasket. The heads you cited are CHEVY heads, or as they were called at the time, "corporate" motor heads. They are NOT Pontiac heads and I challenge you to show us where they were offered on a production car. You apparently never saw one of the GM Performance Parts catalogs from the 1980s or 90s. I ignored the other parts because they are also SBC parts that were never installed in a production car. Please feel free to prove me wrong with exact model usage or factory parts book citations. We'll wait.

FYI, if you do a little research, you will find that the 10033867 "Pontiac" "production" heads are actually made by Brodix and are their 10X small block Chevy heads with Pontiac logos cast into them.

I'll make you a deal. You can still buy those heads from Jegs and Summit (though now they are called "Chevrolet Performance" heads with the death of Pontiac). I'll provide a production Pontiac block. If these heads bolt up, I'll pay you double what they cost.

joe_padavano

Let's recap. I posted a link to what I consider an impressive SBO build that put out 750 hp peak naturally aspirated.

You claim it isn't an "Oldsmobile" motor because it uses a DX block. You further claim that it's no big deal to build Chevy, Pontiac, and Ford motors can make that kind of power.

I challenge you to produce part numbers for a motor based on PONTIAC production parts that makes that kind of power. My "mere mortals" comment was based on the fact that Pontiac did, in fact, release parts in the early 60s in low double digit quantities that might actually have a shot at meeting that goal. As I alluded to, your name needed to be something like Mickey Thompson or Arnie Beswick to actually get your hands on them (and if you did, they would be far too valuable to actually build into a running motor today).

You responded with non-production line parts for a CHEVY motor that happen to carry a Pontiac part number for optical reasons for 1980s and 90s NASCAR racing. Sure, aside from the fact that those parts were never installed on a production vehicle and that they won't bolt to a Pontiac architecture motor, that EXACTLY proves your point...

quaddriver

no joe, I CLEARLY state, more than once, that the motor could be built with both production parts and 'FACTORY' parts, which I also emphasized more than once. That the rules changed and super duty parts which were sold over the counter to PERHAPS reside onto a production car to satisfy their inclusion is not part of the discussion. It did and does exist, period, end of discussion.

That another poster uses alternate postings or simply made up words to present his side notwithstanding, my point has yet to be refuted. the EMC is for building gasoline motors with a set of rules, highest power, prettiest color wins. not one single item in the 'olds' entry is not now, nor even has been part of any olds gasoline engine. Period, end of discussion. If they create a 'DEMC' then fine, whoo hoo, go olds block. As I said explicitly in what, my 2nd post, the use of this motor is yet another nail in the coffin. For those that didnt get the joke, they have proven that no olds gas engine block - production or otherwise can handle the power.

Edited to add, since apparently the search and quote buttons are disabled for some posters:

1st
{emphasis mine}

2nd

Seff

The Diesel block is a gas block that is modified to handle diesel pressures. In that light it's entirely a viable factory part.


I agree entirely with this statement. Combustion chamber design (valve angle, spark plug placement, squish pads), better heat transfer, less pumping losses(more volumetric efficiency), lighter parts, better flowing heads. But, remember that reduced internal friction IS brake power.

The equation goes: Brake power = Indicated power (the power made in the chamber, exerted upon the piston) - Friction power.



Eric is right that the single camshaft design is a compromise, because they are optimized for a given RPM spectrum. Same thing for intake runner length. Both of these factors have been made adjustable/variable with varying success in various engines over the years. The LS engines exist with cam retarders/advancers for that very reason - because it has an advantage. This is literally a cam gear that has an RPM advance on it, much like the mechanical advance on a distributor.

(D)OHC is a thing that allows for variable valve timing - another that allows for VVT is the very new concept (used in the new Viper V10) concentric camshafts - which is for a cam-in-block engine, that then has two camshafts inside each other that rotate independently of each other, controlled by the ECU and thus fully controllable and adjustable. Google it.

joe_padavano

So on your planet, an aftermarket cylinder head for a Chevy motor that happens to have a Pontiac logo on it and an arbitrary assigned part number is a "factory" Pontiac part.

OK, so by that logic, a DRCE is a "factory" Oldsmobile motor. I'm pretty sure WJ got well over 750 HP out of those. 'Nuff said.

MDchanic

Now THAT's an interesting concept.

If designing an engine that is not intended to rev astronomically, you could get all of the advantages of a DOHC design (except maybe for a 4-valve layout) in an "old style" V8 (or even I6) block, with smaller heads.

Thanks!

- Eric

MDchanic

Looked at some information from cam manufacturers on line.

Our old friends at Krupp (you Europeans remember them...) have a concentric system that actually changes not just the timing, but the duration that the cam holds the valve open.

I'm interested in seeing when (alright - "If") this technology is retrofitted to our older hardware, like EFI has been.
With some modifications in the timing cover / water pump area for the operating mechanism, and the addition of a computer (and EFI - why not?), you could theoretically have a very versatile and smooth engine with much better fuel economy.

- Eric

quaddriver

*sigh*

For the record, I believe you have all the cars in your sig list. And Im fairly certain you know olds parts left and right. But a student of history, correction, nascar, engine parts, and gm history you are not.

Granted, right now as I type I am but a few miles from you and 4 hours away from my library of books (including GMPP catalogs the last of which is 1996 that you say I have never seen) so I am going to reserve the right to fudge on dates just a weeee bit, but

in the 1977/1978 timeframe, a few years before the wheelbase reduction in winston cup nascar, it was decreed that any gm body could use the LM1 350. LM1 was a base code for a rather mundane, rotm 350 used in just about production EVERYTHING from which the 358 was built.

The pontiacs and old's running around the track within a year or so were yes, based on the chevrolet block. did they have rockets and arrowheads on the valve covers? probably but at that point the motorsports switched architecture. somewhere about a year or two later Russ Gee - whom anyone should know - put the entire kaybosh on ALL development of ANYTHING based on the 1954 poncho archtiecture. The end result? you saw it in Smokey and the Bandit II and that was it.

Pontiac motor sports produced their flavor of parts that would bolt to the pontiac flavor of the LM1 and they were BOTH listed in the catalog until at least 1990. After that, no one pretended and all chevy designs and modifications became the defacto standard.

Again, I, in my second post about THIS part of the subject, was not flippant in the selection of the 2 brands I chose. You could not peruse the catalog (that I have never seen) and NOT find both names side by side. So if you say that part number is still made today, I will believe you but,

a) its news to me, but then again I have not looked, but then again who cares
b) thats dumb, there is no shortage of casting numbers and the particular port, bowl and chamber flavors were to create a uniquness. whatever.

so sure, Ill take the challenge. Ill grab a nascar approved block that was put in production cars, has a PMS casting number and perhaps casting mark, legal for grand prixs and lemans's at the time and bolt them heads up just fine.

MDchanic

You can't change the name of a tulip to a rose, and then say roses grow from bulbs.

Joe is talking about specific, concrete things: Engines designed and built with specific characteristics to distinct specifications.
If, later on, a different engine was defined by one particular organization (whose rules have never in any way been referenced in this discussion) as belonging to those other categories, that does not change the physical reality and make it so.

There are specific, distinct architectures to the Buick, Cadillac, Pontiac, Oldsmobile Chevrolet, Ford, and Chrysler V8s. Redefining a Chevy to an Olds or a Pontiac does not change what it is.

- Eric

quaddriver

ok but are we being a bit short sighted then? is your cutlass a cutlass, or a regal, century, monte carlo, chevelle or grand prix?

I mean would it not be hypocritical when we take 1 distinct architecture (be it A, A-special or G body) and hang ever so slightly different panels on it and be content we are looking at 6 or 7 different things and then complain wildly when the brass declares the same happens to the powerplant of those 'same' 6 or 7 different things?

All I did was state I had numbers relegated to 2 'different' manufacturers. the fact that it is true seems to be upsetting.

Seff

Eric: I had the same thought - retrofit to old iron would be relatively easy. Displacing the water pump is not a major modification, and as you said, pushrods is adequate for all but high revs.

Olds64

He said Super Duty!

joe_padavano

I'm certainly no NASCAR fanboy, but I do have a pretty decent understanding of the rules and how they changed over the years. I really stopped caring about NASCAR when they went to "funny car" bodies and engines that have no basis in "stock" cars or production parts.

To try once again to bring this thread somewhat back on topic, the whole point was to talk about engine architectures that were DESIGNED by a specific manufacturer. The EMC engine in my first post is an Oldsmobile architecture engine using the same SBO architecture (bore spacing, deck height, etc) as did every single SBO produced from 1964-1990. The block may have been originally designed for a diesel application, but it used exactly the same architecture as any other SBO block. The fact that walls and main webs were substantially thicker than those for a gas engine doesn't change that fact any more than a high-po four bolt main SBC block is different from one in a Nova. The DX block even came from a regular production car that was purchased from a normal dealership, as opposed to GMPP or some other back door source.

I'll also point out that NO GM small block is going to produce 750 HP N.A. using production parts as delivered from the assembly line. Can the LS motors reach that level? Sure. They are impressive designs with a lot of potential. Funny how a quarter century or more of engineering advances will do that. Are Brodix heads with a GM "part number" a "factory" part? We'll agree to disagree.

At this point, I've wasted way too much time on this thread. I tried to highlight what I considered to be a noteworthy accomplishment with an engine architecture designed over half a century ago. Somehow this has devolved into a bashing of Oldsmobile engines.

What I don't understand is that if you think these motors suck so much, why are you even here?

MDchanic

I think that you are missing the important historical point here.

Up until the A-bodies of 1964, every GM division designed its vehicles substantially independently. Yes, there were some shared parts (mostly related to in-house suppliers, such as AC and Delco, and Fisher Body's manufacturing requirements), but frames, suspensions, and major components were generally at least a bit different from one another.

There were platform similarities, such as between the Corvair, Tempest, F-85, and Special in '60-'63, but each of these was distinct as well (front engine / front transmission, front engine / rear transaxle, rear aircooled engine, etc...).
The fullsize models retained distinct details (different suspensions, different engines) until the 1971 model year.

After '71, the A-, B-, C-, E-, and X-bodies were more standardized, but the powerplants remained distinct (except for the ubiquitous Chebby straight six).
Finally, through the late seventies and early eighties, GM pared down its engine lineup, ultimately leaving only the Chev. and Olds formats. This did not suddenly make the SBC into a Pontiac or a Buick engine, and was one of the reasons why GM lost lawsuits after putting the wrong engines in many cars without informing their customers.

The name of this board is "Classic Oldsmobile." That should give you a hint that when we talk about Oldsmobile engines, we are not talking about Chebby, Poncho, or Buick engines that have been installed in Oldsmobiles, but are talking about actual Oldsmobile engines, of the type designed by Olds engineers in their own facility in Lansing. This is the reason why we have a "Non-Olds Powered" section. This is not a subtle point, and there is no way that you can be missing it, rather than simply being obtuse. While it is your right to be obtuse on the internet, it loses its charm after a while, and I think we all understand what we, and each other are talking about at this point.

- Eric

edit: darn, Joe, what is it with you posting roughly the same thing only a minute or two before I do lately?

joe_padavano

It means that we're both screwing off at work.

MDchanic

Touché.

fleming442

I'm sure if you punched the numbers from an Olds Super Stock record holder into one of the Wallace Racing online calculators, you would see the actual limit of production parts.
Personally, I'm okay with aftermarket parts based on the original architecture being used.

quaddriver

well I dont think I have ever posted that the engines 'suck so much' as was stated, in fact I went thru the trouble to highlight and quote what I did say, twice, which has nothing to do with where this thread went. We got to this point because apparently this is not so much a 'classic olds' webiste but rather 'everything must be rosy and praise at all times website'. You can read as well as anyone, as the goal posts moved and additional challenges were presented, I dealt with each, in turn, no matter how far off topic they moved those goalposts. I should have dismissed the trolling, but I did not. MY bad, point taken.

so the admonishment can go both ways. I had clearly stated, to revisit for a moment that a small block motor from more than one maker can make 750 using ONLY stock and factory parts. that I had to go to great lengths to demonstrate what are factory parts and is painfully obvious to any true follower of the 'sport' should be irrelevant. What is most troublesome is that if you say something not towing the line, you get trolled for it. All it would have taken is 2 minutes and a google search engine to find not only the motors I spoke of, but also the classes and the fact that some classes (RONCO for example) do it with a 390cfm 4bbl which would defy all the local experts
contradicting me here. I dont mind being incorrect, and I dont mind being called on it. But of course, one of the entry conditions is that I actually am incorrect.

You might call it being obtuse, but when I have to repost what I actually said because it is apparently ok to blatantly lie about what I said and respond to the lie as if it were the truth, Im not the problem no?

a little more honesty might begat a little less conflict. and that in a nutshell is what the entire thread boils down to.

So your points are taken, but in the interest of fairness, I would expect to see equal time where you say 'joe, he didnt say that, and you know he didnt say that, you have written proof, so why did you say that he did?'

MDchanic

You'e conflating two posters. I never said anything about you having a low opinion of Olds engines.

The two points of contention here, as I have perceived them, are,

1. In order to qualify as an Olds engine, and engine must be of the specific Oldsmobile design, and not a design from another Division later installed in Oldsmobiles, and

2. The definition of "factory" parts - In the sense used here, "factory" was meant to mean regular production parts, and not specialized parts sold through factory outlets in quantities just sufficient for technical homologation, only for racing.

And there could be some debate as to who's trolling whom.

- Eric

oldsfromyell

OK so after the painful task of reading all the idiocy about whether the engine is a SBO or not I have a question. So the diesel block SBO that uses a modified 425 Olds crank with aftermarket connecting rods, pistons,cylinder heads etc. that I am building, is it not considered a true Oldsmobile??? If not is it because of the block? Heads? Crank? What actually would change the origin of the engine to some other form of life? Please educate me on this strange and mythical train of thought because honestly I am at a complete loss.

Troys Toy 70

Well.....

Here is my definition that I use. A engine block is like the foundation of a house. The foundation determines how big it can be, and how many floors. The engine block is the foundation. You eventually will find a limitation to the foundation design, and may need to modify or add to the foundation to do more. As long as I keep the original foundation, then I can build upon it what I want.

If I am not trying to convince anyone that this is a numbers matching exactly as it rolled off the assembly line engine and was produced to sell to the general public "factory correct". Then use what parts you have access to. It's an Olds to me as the foundation haven't changed.

We all know that Olds did not have the "performance" budget/ department that Chevrolet did. I think the Olds engineers did rather well given their parameters. However, do you not think they would have used any new proven technologies they could given half a chance?

Build it to your satisfication, and some of us might benefit. 😀😃

olds 307 and 403

I believe someone was getting 900 HP out of a boosted SBO. What if we throw a Noel girdle on a gas block and swap everything else over does it count? Just like putting expensive 4 grand heads on a factory sbc block when Dart and others are available, so is not using a diesel block in this case, a real crap shoot. Good grief.

oldsfromyell

It would only count if it has production heads on it LMAO

olds 307 and 403

So Dale Robinson's 307 counts even though they have ports moved, wait that isn't Oldsmobile stock port configuration just like the Wise, Batten and Rocket Racing.

oldsfromyell

Yes Dale did move port locations around on the heads for his EMC 307. Even at that it still utilized a commonly produced Olds intake manifold and headers. I am not familiar enough with the exact rules for the EMC. So I will not expand on my opinion without more knowledge of the rules. At any rate Dale did an amazing job with an engine that many consider unworthy of any upgrades.

joe_padavano

EMC rule vary from class-to-class and from year-to-year. You need to check the rules for the specific year and class.