Koda

Ok, we need Doc Brown here. As long as we stick the flux capacitor in a pre-76 Olds, we should be able to hit 88mph just fine.

/ducks and runs from the newer Olds crowd.

tru-blue 442

^^Ha ha, funny.

GEARMAN69

They probably should have just made the W31 and Rallye the same package in 70 . Since both had wing and hood OAI etc, suspension yada and made them in Sebring Yellow and Rallye Red and other colors as the Rallye decals but plus W31 engine.. with bumper chrome standard option the urethane and kept the cut out rear bumper. If you wanted AC you would have to down grade to L74 engine as an option.

Diego

This isn't true.

The W-45 initially had the wing standard, then it was made optional.

Any W-31 has the wing optional.

GEARMAN69

Dude, who give a crap about options and semantics talking about hypothetical car options and coulda shoulda packages geeze man.

1969w3155

Except the whole point of the Rallye was to have a muscle car look with out the high insurance premiums.

Diego

Dude, don't get mad at me for your incorrect "facts."

1968_Post

I don't recall anyone trying to make the Friday nite stop light to stop light circuit in one of these back in the day... looked fast, but...

I vote no...

GEARMAN69

It's about being a ***** you win

I only proposed the thought of the two cars merged and colors widened as what could of been.

Diego

Cry me a river.

GEARMAN69

Come on by and hand me a tissue

Rallye469

What? This is news to me. I don't think I've ever seen a rallye without a wing.
-pete

lazy394

Thanks for raining on that parade lol

Diego

I can't find the factory bulletin that shows this. Anyone else?

pogo69

come on get real,most people even those owning the so called real W cars ripped off the manifolds and carb and headers and trick intakes and holley carbs made them friday nite specials

1969w3155

There was a debate on this in another thread a while back, the Rallye option sheet, has standard options that are required with the W45, but someone showed a service bulletin indicating that the rear wing was dropped or made optional later in the production year.

dnmfranco

Kurt will know, will email him unless someone else has already.

pogo69

I dont know what it is about this thread that borhers me but it reminds me of a 7th grade school yard argument (no offense to the 7th graders) about the mindset of a auto campaign 45 years ago its got the w45 on paper but not on the fender and i can only imagine the look you would get from someone owning any of these cars back in 1970 or si...i think they would look at you like you were 'the man' or something weird anyway i hope soneone gets to the oottom of it

1969w3155

This was originally posted by FirefrostGold, if it doesn't enlarge at all, maybe he can repost it.

Diego

Thank you!

firefrost gold

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...0&ref=gnr-next


on my wall I have a clean photo of the sheet . I can send out one to anyone that would like one . Rallye 496 the dealer invoiced the car when the Original owner bought it they tried to upsell him the spoiler , trim rings, and a Rally pack he said he made 1.69 at Napa and could not swing it.

Rallye469

That's pretty cool!
So at that point the spoiler was an extra and he didn't want it?
Learn something new every day.

-Pete

GEARMAN69

Well the results of this question put simple is that

#1 The factory did not actually promote this as a "W Machine" directly from Olds so the simple technically correct answer is No.
#2 Is closer to a draw with # 3 since many and justified say a "W machine" was more of focused on being a higher HP top dog engine as the center of "W Machine" which makes perfectly good sense.
#3 Myself and maybe some others may look at "W Machines as just special All around Performance package cars that had a car specific W code which these obviously did but without sole focus on HP as a make or break rather a collection of most of the top performance and appearance options rolled into a package and both ways still makes it one (a W) to me. My original point was just it was a later add after W brochures had been done just prior and they could have been in there originally but just didnt and it was a mistake to not allow a W31 option upgrade in W45 option car IMO and maybe made a Rally Red one too that would have cool.

firefrost gold

it was - $72 if you left it off . The dealer ordered it since they were getting one for another individual. I would bet they would have made more on it after the fact than what sticker was with it ? The Original owner was delivering parts to the dealer ( from NAPA) and told the sales man " Some day I will have a Race car like that one out front " He said "To him it looked like a race car " the sales man said "Today is Some day lets do this ". He had to hold off a week to buy the car on his birthday in order to finance it all on his own. Gave him a buck to hold came back a week later . May 13 1970 .. Funny thing is is that is my oldest son's Birthday May 13 . I got all the Finance papers with it , protecto plate the warrantee papers. Inspection sheet , the glove box insert papers for add-ons like floor mats, trunk mat.

Rallye469

Cool story FireFrost. I wish I had a clue as to where mine came from.

So...this begs another question.
Were most Rallye 350's customer ordered or dealer ordered?
The sales introduction info made it seem like they were supposed to be used as a draw into the sales room and to... "Order yours today!"
I wonder how many folks actually filled out that form and not just bought one off the sales floor?

I've heard they had a hard time selling them and that's how a few got the chrome bumpers and trim rings.

-Pete

anthonyP

Interesting....never really realized that with the Trans Am's.

Diego

Not quite a proper characterization.

The "Screaming Chicken" first became an option in 1973, which is the year for what's arguably the fastest Firebird of the muscle car era.

Every subsequent bird was based on the 1973 design:

http://www.tran-zam.com/Spotters_Gui...HoodBirds.html

anthonyP

The '70 350/310 engine with dual exhaust was no slouch, especially when paired with the 3.42 gears. It just seemed a great combination that launched the Cutlass without excess spin and still provided plenty of rpms to keep it going strong on the top end.


My sister had ordered a new '70 Cutlass "S" with the 350/310 engine and 3.42 gears. Many a SS396, 383 Road Runner/Super Bee, GS350, GT-37, 351 Torino/Mustang, 343/360 Javelin/AMX, etc., drivers were very surprised to find a plain looking Cutlass - no scoops, spoiler, or stripes - had just beaten them, with many wanting to see it was "only" a 350 and not a big block.


Oldsmobile made the right choice for the Rallye 350 when they chose the 350/310 engine, making the Rallye a well balanced package with a nice sounding exhaust, plenty of power, a great package/cost, plenty of standard/required "performance" items, and for at the time - the great FE-2 handling.


A "W-Machine" or not, the Rallye 350 brought a lot of positive attention and reviews for Oldsmobile, even if some people did not like the color at the time. Looking back, it was the right thing for Oldsmobile to do. And yes, it did achieve what it was suppose to do, give all the aforementioned while avoiding the auto insurance surcharges the were preventing many from having a "muscle car".


Of course, like the others, this is my opinion.

joe_padavano

My point exactly. All the "show" of a musclecar without the pesky extra performance...

jtdb153

I don't care if the Rallye is considered a W car or not,I just loved the car the first time I saw one parked on the street of my neighborhood in the 70's. I have owned 2 Rallye's and my current 4 speed car is fun to drive,may not have the horses but it's enough for me to enjoy!

Koda

Was there ever a w-31 rallye 350? As in a real one?

joe_padavano

Helen Early claimed that there were records showing that 25 Rallye 350s with W-31 motors got built, but I have not seen these records. On the other hand, if anyone would know, she would have.

Koda

Thanks. I would consider one of those a w-machine, hah. I wonder what a great condition, documented one of those would be worth. I'd guess north of 50k.

kjr442

I voted no. My orange 72 442 looks like a w machine too, but it is not.

anthonyP

If it was true that Oldsmobile actually built 25 Rallye 350's with the W-31 engine, which I guess could only be verified by either the window sticker or build sheet/trim card,....


....then I wonder how many of these few special Rallye 350's were dismantled and/or cut-up by those who only saw Rallye 350's as "parts cars" for their own "W-Machine".


I am always amazed at the number of variations this - what one could perceive as an "Xerox" car - were built. Between the body type, trim levels, and many options available, the differences in all of the Rallye's seemed limitless, as seen when comparing those built.

joe_padavano

Back in the day, all musclecars were just used cars at one point. I once pulled the rear axle out of a 1970 W-31 that was in a wrecking yard. The hood and aluminum intake were still on the car, but at the time (mid-1970s) I was paying big college bills and didn't have a lot of extra money. I also didn't have a 1970 or an SBO at the time (my car was a 68 442), so I didn't need those parts, either.

This is why ads you see today touting a "rare combination of options" are such BS. Back in the 1960s there were tens of thousands of possible option and color combinations. Most cars on the road were one-of-a-couple if you counted all these possible combinations. Of course, today, every frame-off car has EVERY single option in the book...

Diego

I've seen Helen Early's notes in the GM Heritage Center and there's no mention of W-31 Rallyes.

I won't believe any were built by the factory until something with documentation pops up.

1969w3155

I thought that several years ago, when Helen was still alive, that the question was asked, and she replied "none".

GEARMAN69

A highly doubt it as well after looking into it deeply last year, the simple thing is it is not listed on the order form (W31). Could it be as simple as the W31 package already existed and came with W25, D35, FE2 (assuming I am not in error) that also these same side options came with W45 as well so a W31 engine add to an W45 would have to be done with some special pricing since both were priced to include these other items ?

davebw31

Gezzzzs here we go again about this stupid W45 with the W31...........................NO NO NO no no no no no............................


1) All cars built by GM had to file with the government and AMA (American Manufacturing Association) Spec sheets on All body types/styles. There are No, none, zilch, nada any info for an A Body W45 listed with the W31 engine. Only the L74 350/310 HP engine.


2) There were 4 (four) pre 70' pilot chassis built with all of the W45 under pinning's with 69' model year Cutlass S bodies on them. They were painted 4 (four) different colors, Lime (kind of like the Mopar lime), Grape (Dark Purple), Apple (Candy Apple Red), and Banana (yep you guessed it, Sebring Yellow). They were parked in the Engineering Bldg. lot during the day. Different Engineers would take them home, go shopping, to the movies, etc. to get the "peoples opinions". They did NOT have W31 engines. They had the 350/310 engine. This was right after June 1969. Never saw them again after fall of 1969. I was told that all 4 were scraped, which was common back then. Cars like that could not be sold to the public, titled, or licensed, nor were they built............. Hold It,....... Wait for It,.........to AMA specs.


3) There were 2 (two) W45 s taken off the assembly line during the first run and taken over to the engineering garage and the W31 package was installed. Not just the engine. They were to be evaluated at the Milford Proving Grounds. One with an M21 4 speed with HD TO coded 3:91s and one JO coded automatic, also with HD TO coded 3:91 s. As I was in the garage a lot I got to see the progress. It took about 1 1/2 weeks to finish. Sometime in Oct. 1969 at the final showing of the final product and after it was decided on the final color by the Sales Group, it was decided not to offer this option. Sales and Marketing felt it would be too much competition for the F85/Cutlass line up with the W31 option. Both of these W45/W31 were converted back to the 350/310 engine, rears, trans., etc., and sold to Story Olds in Lansing as used "Brass Hat" cars, because they were originally built............. Hold It,........Wait for It..................to AMA specs.


4) I have an original W45 Warehouse Sales Ordering form and no where does it list the W31 option. The form is partially filled out with X s in the "Required" boxes and the ONLY ENGINE OFFERD IS THE 350/310 engine, period. Even on the LH border for options you could order if the Zone Mgr. or Sales Rep would sign off on these special option not listed in Sales Brochures, is the W31 listed.


5) The whole purpose of the W45 concept that was sold to GM Corporate was to be GMs "Road Runner Fighter". Not just for insurance reasons, that was secondary. The W45 was not very costly to build. Other than those costly bumpers and vinyl stripe package, Olds had the engineering done/costs figured out for everything else, hood, air cleaner setup, wheels, paint, wing, etc., etc,. Sales and Marketing said "GM Corporate would hand them there *** if they didn't keep a basic W45 within $50-$75 of a basic Road Runner". I was in a Quality/Engineering/Production meeting when I heard them say that.


You know I liked Helen Early. She was a good fit in the Public Relations Dept. which was housed on the west side of Lansing, but only knew what she was told. I am pretty sure she never stepped foot in either Fisher or Lansing Assembly, maybe engineering. She was a very good friend with Dale Smith (the race program engineer) and George Hurst. I asked her years ago about her statement about the W31 option package in a W45. She told me "she was wrong and that as far as she now knew none were built". Which actually was incorrect, as they did those two engineering mules for testing. I knew this all along since 1969-70 and I was going to tell her how I knew none were sold to the public. I think she may have seen those two in engineering, back when!


As far as that Marketing Bulletin on the wing being optional late in the build run, is news to me.........I did not get those Marketing Bulletins, only Quality Control, Engineering, and Sales Bulletins, and Assembly Manual/Engineering Drawing updates.


Olds bought a 68 (I think it was a 68 as I never saw it. I just knew what they were doing by what was stated in meetings) Road Runner to evaluate its performance with the 383/335 HP 4 speed or your basic model. A 69 350/310 with a 4 speed and 3:91 was very compatible with the Road Runner in handling, weight, fuel economy, and performance. Its just that Sales and Marketing screwed up big time for not offering color choices!!!!!!!!!!!! It was all about the COST to build!