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I didn't see one of those, but I'm not a contortionist. There is a lot of bending involved. I really have no idea how guys like him worked on these cars. I'm about 5' 11" and have long arms. And a lot of these things are quite the reach.
I took a few more pics. Mostly of things I was just curious about. A bracket and also something bolted onto the engine. Was wondering if it has some sort of markings or code on it??? If so I could clean it.
oh hell!!.....I was going to mention the zbar frame-mounted bracket but it looked like it would be hard to describe and your pics, earlier, were sort of a mess.
BUT....you inadvertently, or purposefully (pick one!) honed in on some more CRITICAL FACTORS as seen in the two pics above.
>Frame bracket - for the clutch Zbar---there it is!
>Battery cable tube and bracket - by hook or crook I'm glad you snapped this pic as THAT IS the battery cable tube setup for a MANUAL SHIFT car!! Auto trans cars have a different version of this mounted down on the framerail instead of on the back of the cylinder head like you have.
Quit messing around and pull up the front carpet. It's apparent that parts were changed, etc and it wouldn't be too hard to remove the spot-welded on 4 speed tunnel "hump" while the shifter stuff was being installed. The "hump" may still be in place or maybe it was removed but there still may be a big irregular hole cut into the trans tunnel that the "hump" was installed on top of.
You've seen WAY TOO MANY POSITIVE CLUES to this thing originally being a 4 speed car so cut to the chase here and get on with it.
Another plus side is you may not have to worry about rebuilding another automatic transmission......you aren't going to need one if this continues to develop the way it's going now.
Last edited by 70Post; February 9th, 2016 at 09:13 PM.
oh hell!!.....I was going to mention the zbar frame-mounted bracket but it looked like it would be hard to describe and your pics, earlier, were sort of a mess.
BUT....you inadvertently, or purposefully (pick one!) honed in on some more CRITICAL FACTORS as seen in the two pics above.
>Frame bracket - for the clutch Zbar---there it is!
>Battery cable tube and bracket - by hook or crook I'm glad you snapped this pic as THAT IS the battery cable tube setup for a MANUAL SHIFT car!! Auto trans cars have a different version of this mounted down on the framerail instead of on the back of the cylinder head like you have.
Quit messing around and pull up the front carpet. It's apparent that parts were changed, etc and it wouldn't be too hard to remove the spot-welded on 4 speed tunnel "hump" while the shifter stuff was being installed. The "hump" may still be in place or maybe it was removed but there still may be a big irregular hole cut into the trans tunnel that the "hump" was installed on top of.
You've seen WAY TOO MANY POSITIVE CLUES to this thing originally being a 4 speed car so cut to the chase here and get on with it.
Another plus side is you may not have to worry about rebuilding another automatic transmission......you aren't going to need one if this continues to develop the way it's going now.
As far as those pics went, I just figured that something looked out of place. And the later ones, I just started covering anything I hadn't taken good pics of yet.
I know what you are saying about the hump/hole. I am going to get to it. I've spent a ton of time on this car so far and I do have a young family, so there has to be some breaks here and there. Plus I have the inspector from the NC DMV coming next week to look at it so I really don't want to rip the seats out again until he is gone because I don't always have time to work on the full task at hand because there are other things going on around here.
Like I said, from what I've seen and the remarks I have received, it is almost certain it was a factory 4-speed car. Verifying what we already seem to know via another method is good. I will do it. Patience my friend. And thanks for your help.
I agree. As far as I'm concerned, you've proved it was originally a 4-speed W-30. Now aren't you glad you didn't buy/trade-for that OW TH-400 that would have been unoriginal in more ways than one?
And the good news is that (I believe) there's nothing special about the M21 4-speed that came with a '70 W-30 as compared to any other M21, so you don't have to pay a premium to return it to original.
Thanks Brian for pointing that out on the OW transmission. Yes, that sure would have been a mistake. But can I find an M21 that matches this car? That would be the challenge I bet to even come close on a manufacture date.
I went out to the car to get one of my flashlights and something came to me...that carpet is two piece so I decided to pull it and see how far it went on the inner front seat bolts. Seemed to have a good amount of movement so I just went for the shorty console, plate, and shifter handle.
The prior pics of the shifter I had posted, nobody mentioned the floor and how it wasn't painted around the shifter. Maybe it wasn't that noticable. Well, it sure is now, pics attached.
Last edited by 70-442-W30; February 10th, 2016 at 03:29 PM.
I guess that settles it. Sure don't see too many converted from 4 speed to auto. Would that radiator with a trans cooler been replaced or original to a 4 speed car in 1970.
Factory just used plugs in the trans cooler holes for the manual shift cars.....DO NOT get rid of that radiator!
Excellent to see the latest "discovery" with the riveted-on/patched floor.
You'll eventually want to source a metal 4 speed "hump" to reinstall...pic of one below. These are available used and also reproduction. There will likely be perfect evidence of where it was installed once you remove that patch that was put over the tunnel. You may be able to see where the spot welds were that held on the original "hump".
When you get time check further back along the tunnel, between the two bucket seats. See if there's any evidence of a console mount bracket back there. Maybe this car was a bit of an "el strippo" version with buckets and NO CONSOLE. Those look real cool with just the shifter and large rubber shift boot on top of the carpeted trans tunnel.
There was minimal, if any, body color on the interior floors of these cars...overspray at best and usually just some sort of primer. So in your pics it would have just looked like a greyish primered metal around the shifter.
Last edited by 70Post; February 10th, 2016 at 09:07 PM.
The radiator you have, is a correct 4 core "EC" rad code tag for 1970. They are very hard to find. It also means if it is original to the car which I believe it is, you would have 3:91 gear rear end.
Would you be able to post what the part number is on the alternator?
Last edited by RocketDevo; February 11th, 2016 at 12:29 AM.
Reason: Addition
Sweet! You may check with joesw31 for a 4 speed, he would be a go to guy for sure.
I will do as you said. There was mention of this maybe being an issue with it going back from an auto to a 4 speed with the input shaft?
Originally Posted by timholliday
I guess that settles it. Sure don't see too many converted from 4 speed to auto. Would that radiator with a trans cooler been replaced or original to a 4 speed car in 1970.
Probably don't see too many "high performance" cars converted from a 4 speed to an auto, period. I'm still trying to grasp the reasoning for this. Unless it was just so my mother in law could drive it easier, or he just really possibly wanted a 4 speed in that Hurst Olds.
Originally Posted by 70Post
Factory just used plugs in the trans cooler holes for the manual shift cars.....DO NOT get rid of that radiator!
Excellent to see the latest "discovery" with the riveted-on/patched floor.
You'll eventually want to source a metal 4 speed "hump" to reinstall...pic of one below. These are available used and also reproduction. There will likely be perfect evidence of where it was installed once you remove that patch that was put over the tunnel. You may be able to see where the spot welds were that held on the original "hump".
When you get time check further back along the tunnel, between the two bucket seats. See if there's any evidence of a console mount bracket back there. Maybe this car was a bit of an "el strippo" version with buckets and NO CONSOLE. Those look real cool with just the shifter and large rubber shift boot on top of the carpeted trans tunnel.
There was minimal, if any, body color on the interior floors of these cars...overspray at best and usually just some sort of primer. So in your pics it would have just looked like a greyish primered metal around the shifter.
There may well be no evidence of the console you speak of because this car, as someone mentioned, was a steel wheel car....so aside from the W-30 package, there just aren't many factory options on this car. My guess is if one was going to have a console delete, this would have been the perfect candidate...but I can pull that carpet up and take some pics in the opposite direction, toward the back.
Thanks for the pic on the 4 speed hump. I will look into those and a place where I can acquire one.
Originally Posted by RocketDevo
The radiator you have, is a correct 4 core "EC" rad code tag for 1970. They are very hard to find. It also means if it is original to the car which I believe it is, you would have 3:91 gear rear end.
Would you be able to post what the part number is on the alternator?
I will get the alternator pic for you now. Give me a minute and I'll be right back. Is it rare for one of these to have the 3:91 gear? I know any option above that was only dealer installed as I saw in the assembly manual.
I have been following your thread, and this car is great. I read your comment about the input shaft of the trans. The tip of the Muncie trans goes into the crank shaft where there is a pilot bearing. From the evidence that I have seen this should not be a problem because your car is an 4 speed car. I believe that I have all of the parts you need convert your car back to its original state. Keep up the good work
Thanks Joe. I appreciate the nice words. If you have all the parts then can you PM me with a cost on those? Someone told me I could probably get those parts for less than what I could get from the sale of the H/O TH400 and Hurst shifter in there now. If that is true then I would possibly go for that.
The radiator you have, is a correct 4 core "EC" rad code tag for 1970. They are very hard to find. It also means if it is original to the car which I believe it is, you would have 3:91 gear rear end.
Would you be able to post what the part number is on the alternator?
I tried and tried and I can't find a part number on this? Is it something that I have to put some cleaner on in order to see? I looked down through the top hole in the bracket and figured that was where you were talking about...but nothing. Here are the pics I came up with:
For those that don't have ability to see the pic, it is an 880 with a 9K6 date code. After trying to sort through this thread , it apparently is the correct alternator for the car. Or maybe not according to some in the thread, but the date code is good according to what I found.
Actually, I'm wrong on the date code. K would be for November. This car has a build date of October. Any chance this could still be the alternator that came with the car? That is unless they didn't use wither I or J for date codes, then this could be the correct one. Confused. ??
Was looking at one of Stefano's sales on eBay and was wondering about this console thing....those two raised areas with holes are the attaching points? Easier for me to ask then try to look up in my assembly guide. Pages are out of order and some are so blurry I can barely read them.
Yes - those two raised areas are the rear console mount bracket...it's actually a one piece formed/folded bracket that is spot welded to the floor.
There's also a bracket on top of the trans tunnel up closer to the firewall and that could have been spot welded on or bolted on. This console front bracket is not visible in the pic you just posted....pic wasn't large enough.
Hopefully, you won't even need/want a console (ie option wasn't chosen).......non-console manual floor shift cars aren't very common and they're "all business"!....no messing around with those silly options!
Also, nice looking alternator and it's the correct number for a non-AC car like yours. Another rare and hard-to-find piece you don't have to worry about.
Last edited by 70Post; February 11th, 2016 at 08:27 PM.
Have you had a chance to look at the rear end. If it is a 3:91 gear car it will have a "TO" stamped on the right side of the axle. It could be facing the rear or the front. The alternator you have goes a long way in showing how original your car is. Thanks.
Yes - those two raised areas are the rear console mount bracket...it's actually a one piece formed/folded bracket that is spot welded to the floor.
There's also a bracket on top of the trans tunnel up closer to the firewall and that could have been spot welded on or bolted on. This console front bracket is not visible in the pic you just posted....pic wasn't large enough.
Hopefully, you won't even need/want a console (ie option wasn't chosen).......non-console manual floor shift cars aren't very common and they're "all business"!....no messing around with those silly options!
Also, nice looking alternator and it's the correct number for a non-AC car like yours. Another rare and hard-to-find piece you don't have to worry about.
That black W-30 that Stefano has for sale (the $100k+ one) doesn't have a console either and is a 4 speed. I have to admit, it does look cool. Could only see it in the tiny collage pic he had, but I zoomed in.
The carpet that is in there doesn't show any signs of a full length console. I will check the bracket locations as I get a chance and let you know what I find out. It could have been cut and removed, or as I think we both suspect, it probably never existed.
The date code had me worried for a second on that alternator...
Have you had a chance to look at the rear end. If it is a 3:91 gear car it will have a "TO" stamped on the right side of the axle. It could be facing the rear or the front. The alternator you have goes a long way in showing how original your car is. Thanks.
I will check on the axle for what you said. It is going to be after that inspector gets here though because I'm not putting the car up on the stands again until after he leaves. If he needs me to jack it up then I will, but I figured it was time to give it a break. Been on the stands for 1.5 months.
Yes, the alternator is a cool piece. And it has 80k miles on it, so that's pretty reliable for a car from this era.
When I posted some pics of the heads before (in another thread), I forgot to go to the end to get the date code. It is 211, both sides. Posting here so when I finally go back through all the posts I have I can get the info written down...which is probably what I should have done in the first place. OOPS.
Going out to see if I can wiggle under the car without it being on stands to check the axle code. I have the tank out so it may not be too bad. Will post a pic if I find it.
This pic may help you to see where to look, from my 70.
That does help quite a bit. I didn't see anything like that because the tube is caked in some black stuff. Not sure if that is paint or rubber. But it seems old. I did check the front side and thought I saw something circled in paint that said TW? Maybe not. My eyes are terrible sometimes.
Thanks! Also, cleaned up the tag on the differential, but my wire brush was giving out. Harbor Freight... but it reads something like "anti spin diff lube only." Will post a pic when I go back out.
I also took a pic from the front of the axle on that side to try to see what I was seeing last night. I swear, if you stare at these parts long enough, letters start to just appear...especially when they are coated. I couldn't see any lettering on that today, it was near the inner part of the tube.
Also took a pic above where the gas tank was just because I plan on installing soon and the pic will be impossible to get later.
It is amazing to see how far forward the body color was painted under the car. I always assumed it would be black under the gas tank. Your car has Gabriel Hi Jacker air shocks which I would assume were not stock. The tag is standard on all limited spin differentials.
Last edited by timholliday; February 13th, 2016 at 02:32 PM.
It is amazing to see how far forward the body color was painted under the car. I always assumed it would be black under the gas tank. Your car has Gabriel Hi Jacker air shocks which I would assume were not stock. The tag is standard on all limited spin differentials.
Yeah, I should probably take a better picture of that paint since it won't be visible soon. Going out for two more more pics then I'm done for today out there.
Let me know if there is anything anyone wants pics of for tomorrow.
Here are a few more....forgot I pushed the box with the new transmission jack in it back where it was and the 6 ton jack stands also...wasn't moving it all again to get on the creeper, so I just laid down on top of the transmission jack box. Comfy.
Just a suggestion before you reinstall the fuel tank. Now would be the time to do your rear control arm bushings if they are worn.
Thanks for that. I do have plenty of room under there right now. What about that support part above the differential, does that ever need new bushings? I will take some pics tomorrow and you can tell me what you think.
February 9th, 2016, 07:25 PM
There is a lot of bending involved. I really have no idea how guys like him worked on these cars. I'm about 5' 11" and have long arms. And a lot of these things are quite the reach.
That would be the challenge I bet to even come close on a manufacture date.
