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- W-30 broadcast sheet found under the rear seat still attached with rings
- VIN derivative matches on engine (but no pic posted as I'm keeping the VIN private.)
- Hurst Olds OH auto transmission and shifter from my father in law's 1969 car.
- Manual transmission numbered carb that pre-dates build date on broadcast card
- Manual transmission numbered distributor (unsure of dating or where to find.)
- car does not have power brakes or A/C
So, I'm fine with the Hurst stuff and totally get where that came from...but the manual transmission parts have me guessing...I suppose they could have been added, but is there any chance this car left the factory with an auto trans (OW not in the car now), and power brakes with these manual transmission components? Or is something up?
Pics to support below for those who haven't seen:
Last edited by 70-442-W30; February 9th, 2016 at 05:52 AM.
The date code for the distributor is stamped on the same lip where you found its part number. Tell us what it is. If it makes sense with respect to the car's build date, that's one more thing to consider.
Are there any signs that the power brakes were added later? Any signs that the car used to have a clutch pedal?
I have documented several automatic 1970 W-30s which likely came from the factory with the '977 manual W-30 distributor. My interest in this is that my own W-30 falls into this category. I would not be surprised at all if the factory substituted distributors either by mistake or because they ran out of the automatic distributors.
However, as Joe P. posted in your other thread, I would be VERY surprised if the factory every put a manual W-30 Q-jet on an automatic W-30 engine. I don't see where that would ever be considered an acceptable substitution. So it would either have to be a mistake, or a previous owner swapped one in. Did your uncle have a manual W-30, too? Regardless, if he perhaps installed a manual W-30 cam (or something similarly radical) it's possible he installed the matching Q-jet.
One thing to remember with date codes on W-30 parts is that there are only a limited number of date codes out there. AC Delco only needed to make W-30 distributors in a few batches in order to have enough for the entire year. Same for Rochester and the Q-jets. A car should never have parts with date codes after the car's build date, but just about any date code prior to the car's build date is possible for rare parts.
The date code for the distributor is stamped on the same lip where you found its part number. Tell us what it is. If it makes sense with respect to the car's build date, that's one more thing to consider.
Are there any signs that the power brakes were added later? Any signs that the car used to have a clutch pedal?
I have documented several automatic 1970 W-30s which likely came from the factory with the '977 manual W-30 distributor. My interest in this is that my own W-30 falls into this category. I would not be surprised at all if the factory substituted distributors either by mistake or because they ran out of the automatic distributors.
However, as Joe P. posted in your other thread, I would be VERY surprised if the factory every put a manual W-30 Q-jet on an automatic W-30 engine. I don't see where that would ever be considered an acceptable substitution. So it would either have to be a mistake, or a previous owner swapped one in. Did your uncle have a manual W-30, too? Regardless, if he perhaps installed a manual W-30 cam (or something similarly radical) it's possible he installed the matching Q-jet.
One thing to remember with date codes on W-30 parts is that there are only a limited number of date codes out there. AC Delco only needed to make W-30 distributors in a few batches in order to have enough for the entire year. Same for Rochester and the Q-jets. A car should never have parts with date codes after the car's build date, but just about any date code prior to the car's build date is possible for rare parts.
Brian, if I can grab your attention while you are still on here, do you know if the code is to the left or right of the part #? It is tight in there and very hard for me to see. Thanks.
OK, 9G21 is July 21, 1969, which is a known production date for the '977 distributor.
If that seems like a long time before your car's build date, note that no 1970 W-30s are known to have been built before the third week of October (I'd love to hear from anyone who has one earlier), so obviously the July-built distributors couldn't have been installed in, say, a September car.
Last edited by BlackGold; February 8th, 2016 at 03:28 PM.
OK, 9G21 is July 21, 1969, which is a known production date for the '977 distributor.
If that seems like a long time before your car's build date, note that no 1970 W-30s are known to have been built before the third week of October (I'd love to hear from anyone who has one earlier), so obviously the July-built distributors couldn't have been installed in, say, a September car.
Still waiting for someone to uncover those Olds records where it shows what happened when on the W-30 builds. It would be cool to see if our cars were within the first few hundred built, which I'm suspecting. Could be wrong on that, but it would be a neat fun fact.
The date code for the distributor is stamped on the same lip where you found its part number. Tell us what it is. If it makes sense with respect to the car's build date, that's one more thing to consider.
Are there any signs that the power brakes were added later? Any signs that the car used to have a clutch pedal?
I have documented several automatic 1970 W-30s which likely came from the factory with the '977 manual W-30 distributor. My interest in this is that my own W-30 falls into this category. I would not be surprised at all if the factory substituted distributors either by mistake or because they ran out of the automatic distributors.
However, as Joe P. posted in your other thread, I would be VERY surprised if the factory every put a manual W-30 Q-jet on an automatic W-30 engine. I don't see where that would ever be considered an acceptable substitution. So it would either have to be a mistake, or a previous owner swapped one in. Did your uncle have a manual W-30, too? Regardless, if he perhaps installed a manual W-30 cam (or something similarly radical) it's possible he installed the matching Q-jet.
One thing to remember with date codes on W-30 parts is that there are only a limited number of date codes out there. AC Delco only needed to make W-30 distributors in a few batches in order to have enough for the entire year. Same for Rochester and the Q-jets. A car should never have parts with date codes after the car's build date, but just about any date code prior to the car's build date is possible for rare parts.
There is no hole in the firewall for a clutch pedal. And this is the mounting of the auto shifter, no signs of a manual transmission, at least from what I can see.
Also it is good to know that you have documented a few W-30s with this particular manual transmission distributor when they were indeed an auto. These things are probably not easy to keep track of, but with this car...you might have another one to add to the list.
Also, sorry for the triple post here, but I also wanted to show how good the interior looks now. I saw that pic that I posted above and it looks a ton different tonight after a few nights of cleanup:
There isn't any extra hole in the firewall for a clutch pedal rod from the factory so you still haven't eliminated this possibility.
The factory clutch pedal setup uses a steering column firewall support plate that has an extra hole in one half of the plate setup. So, the clutch pedal rod that goes through the "firewall" just goes through the column support plate.
Take a pic of the steering column area where it passes through the firewall...take it from the engine compartment side.
You may have posted one somewhere else but you've got a lot of different threads going on this car...not going to search through all of them.
Maybe you already know the clutch pedal rod would pass through the column support plate but you are looking for clues so maybe this will lead somewhere.
Rochester carbs were extremely tuned for each DIFFERENT motor/trans/cam combo for the factory. IMO highly unlikely the factory would have allowed a 7040256 carb to land on a auto-cammed W30.
There isn't any extra hole in the firewall for a clutch pedal rod from the factory so you still haven't eliminated this possibility.
The factory clutch pedal setup uses a steering column firewall support plate that has an extra hole in one half of the plate setup. So, the clutch pedal rod that goes through the "firewall" just goes through the column support plate.
Take a pic of the steering column area where it passes through the firewall...take it from the engine compartment side.
You may have posted one somewhere else but you've got a lot of different threads going on this car...not going to search through all of them.
Maybe you already know the clutch pedal rod would pass through the column support plate but you are looking for clues so maybe this will lead somewhere.
Rochester carbs were extremely tuned for each DIFFERENT motor/trans/cam combo for the factory. IMO highly unlikely the factory would have allowed a 7040256 carb to land on a auto-cammed W30.
No I didn't know where the clutch pedal would pass through. But I did get from others that this car was only available with power brakes (which it does have) in automatic form - not in a 4-speed. This car was a very early build W-30 so exceptions could be possible, who knows. And as some have pointed out there is a zero percent chance of me finding a build sheet so we may just never know 100% on this car.
ok, I'm officially an idiot. I assumed this car had power brakes just from looking at the reservoir and didn't know what to spot when looking for power brakes vs not power.
Every car I've had has had power brakes and this one has never been running, so how was I to know? I guess I shouldn't assume anything anymore.
I checked the assembly manual and it is definitely the one on the left, Section 5 Page 100 which is the standard brakes. No power, but they are disc front, drum rear. That I am sure of.
It's "news pending". Depends on what ELSE you find and that is going to require digging further.
At this point I might concentrate on that Hurst floor shifter setup on the trans tunnel. You need to determine if there's a factory-cut hole in the trans tunnel floor for a manual floor shift setup. The Hurst setup in the car now looks suspiciously placed.....as in - it looks like it might be mounted in the same area that the large factory-cut manual floor shift hole is typically located.
Either get under the car and look up into the tunnel above the trans to see if there's a large/irregular cutout in the top of the trans tunnel OR pull the D side bucket seat and lift the carpet up to get a good look at the top of the trans tunnel.
Discovering a 4 speed car would be considered GOOD news.
From what I can see, the steering column support plate setup does not have the extra hole in it for the clutch pedal rod.....so that bit of "news" weighs in on the side of this being an automatic trans car originally (assuming I am seeing things correctly).
Have you looked at the back of the engine block on the D side for a clutch Z-bar ball stud?? Someone could have removed the Zbar and other clutch related stuff but left that ball stud threaded into the block.
Last edited by 70Post; February 9th, 2016 at 12:05 PM.
Times like these are where a little video inspection camera would come in handy. This is driving me crazy.
Any comments on the last pic I posted? There seems to be a metal plate bolted in to cover up where the 399904 seal asm would go for the manual transmission. That doesn't look factory to me. Section 9 page 114 of the assembly manual.
When I look closely at that pad, it looks like it was used some too. You can see a slight line in it. Also, when looking at the mounting bracket, it does look as if something was mounted there before, as there is a slight difference in the metal around the one set of holes.
When I look closely at that pad, it looks like it was used some too. You can see a slight line in it. Also, when looking at the mounting bracket, it does look as if something was mounted there before, as there is a slight difference in the metal around the one set of holes.
From the picture, there is no doubt that the rubber pad was used. The line is right where it should be.
I didn't see one of those, but I'm not a contortionist. There is a lot of bending involved. I really have no idea how guys like him worked on these cars. I'm about 5' 11" and have long arms. And a lot of these things are quite the reach.
I took a few more pics. Mostly of things I was just curious about. A bracket and also something bolted onto the engine. Was wondering if it has some sort of markings or code on it??? If so I could clean it.
That bottom picture is the frame side bracket for the Z bar. Looking good that it was a 4 speed car. Someone went to alot of trouble changing many parts to go to the automatic.
70post... Did the 4 speed car have the same radiator as the automatic car?
Ok, I was getting sick and tired of the low quality iPhone pics, so I changed to my big camera. Took some good pics of things tonight that I hadn't previously taken or items that didn't turn out well. Radiator, alternator, etc.
I would place my bets that this is a 4 speed car.... Those red inner fenders look like they will clean up good with some great color. Be VERY careful cleaning them. Don't worry to much about the part cut out for the headers, that can be fixed. Being originals and nice color is priceless.
You should see the color of them underneath. Ugh! I'm done taking pics for today, but take my word on it. It's gonna take some good cleaning technique for those.
The positive battery cable is routed differently from an automatic to a manual trans. There should be a round tube that the cable runs through. On manual cars it is mounted on the back of the engine on drivers side. An automatic has is mounted on drivers side frame. This may or may not help in your detective work. Good luck.
I did notice the positive wire going through a tube while I was in there tonight. Thought it was strange. They are routed in the way you mentioned for a manual. It was right behind the driver's side valve cover.
I did notice the positive wire going through a tube while I was in there tonight. Thought it was strange. They are routed in the way you mentioned for a manual. It was right behind the driver's side valve cover.
That is correct for a 4 speed car. The battery cable had to go that way on the 4 speed cars to keep it off the clutch Z bar.
Well I had a feeling in the beginning that this car wasn't an auto from the factory. Some will probably say that I still haven't proven that it is a 4 speed car, but I'm feeling pretty confident now since all of you guys have shared your expertise.
You may never know for sure. You are digging for clues so you can build a case for either trans. In the end that is all you can do. It is a cool car no matter what trans is in it!
It is a cool car. I only wish that my father in law and I had a chance to work on it together. I lived out of state most of the last two decades and we never had time to get real close. He was a good man though and I sure do miss him. I'm sure he is proud that I'm taking the steps and asking questions to those that can help me.
You are right, in the end it doesn't matter what transmission it has. But I just needed to know, especially in the case of troubleshooting or telling people the history of the car. Who knows, it may end up a manual again in the near future? We'll see.
A long shot but do you know if the engine has ever been apart? The crankshaft on a 4 speed car will be drilled for the pilot bearing and one for an automatic car will not be. If ever you pull the transmission out take a look at the crank. I am willing to bet it is a 4 speed crank. If by chance it is not, You will not be able to convert back to 4 speed till the crank is pulled out and drilled for a pilot bearing.
Pull up the carpet and look for a 4spd hump. That will tell you right away. May even be able to feel it through the carpet is that shifter isn't covering it.
A long shot but do you know if the engine has ever been apart? The crankshaft on a 4 speed car will be drilled for the pilot bearing and one for an automatic car will not be. If ever you pull the transmission out take a look at the crank. I am willing to bet it is a 4 speed crank. If by chance it is not, You will not be able to convert back to 4 speed till the crank is pulled out and drilled for a pilot bearing.
I am unsure if the engine has ever been out of the car. My mother in law said that he and a friend pulled an all-nighter rebuilding the engine. But he had multiple cars and I just can't know this for sure. Those are good points on the change out. I did read something in a thread about going from an auto to a manual and how they had to drill something and it was tougher than they thought to do. And there was an adapter or something that they could use also. But since no thread that I saw ever posted about going from a manual to an auto, I didn't know what would pertain to my situation and how the car is now. But you just answered that.
Do the last 5 numbers on the block pad posted on your other thread match the last 5 numbers of your VIN? Come on now, pick up the pace. Inquiring minds want to know...
Pull up the carpet and look for a 4spd hump. That will tell you right away. May even be able to feel it through the carpet is that shifter isn't covering it.
I had the carpet partially pulled before when I was searching for the broadcast card. The attaching points for the H/O shifter looked like they were stock to me, so I just assumed that one auto transmission and shifter took the place of the other.
Maybe I can get a pic of above the transmission from under it? I really don't want to pull this carpet again because I have just vacuumed everything and re-bolted the seats back down.
If there was a hump, it wasn't super obvious to me. But then again, look what I did with the power brakes/manual brakes. Oops.
I will try first to document that from under the car. But I have to get it back up on the stands first.
Do the last 5 numbers on the block pad posted on your other thread match the last 5 numbers of your VIN? Come on now, pick up the pace. Inquiring minds want to know...
Yes, the VIN derivative matches for the last part. I mentioned this previously but I know you can't possibly read everything on here.
February 8th, 2016, 02:50 PM
There is a lot of bending involved. I really have no idea how guys like him worked on these cars. I'm about 5' 11" and have long arms. And a lot of these things are quite the reach.
