344870M

I found this site (not sure how old it actually is though).

This guy has a 1970 W-30 4-spd convertible. It appeared in MC Review and has documentation from the sellers, the original dealership salesman, the service tech and more all attesting to the fact that the car is authentic. It has all the correct parts. It even has the broadcast card. But the card does not show the W-30 option.

I'm thinking that Mr. Padavano can put this to rest with one fell swoop of a post but I'm asking anyways.

Here is the link.
http://www.oldsmobile442w-30.com/gallery2/main.php

Click on the documentation link. Does anyone know this car? If in fact it is a true W, how does this affect authenticating other W's that can't be supported by paper proof? I now consider my visibly aged broadcast card the most valuable part of my car.

WhatIf

Buddy of mine saw this car at an auction. Bidders took the bait I guess. Bidders paid "real" money for this car. Whether real or a fake I think it sold close to $200,000. If its fake someone sure got taken! Fantastic doucmentation though, Ive never seen an owner try so hard to convince people its real. But why doesnt it say W30 on the card?

344870M

Exactly.

joe_padavano

With all that "documentation", how come there isn't one scrap of paper that actually says that the W-30 package was ordered? And here's a news flash. Copies of magazine articles and pages from the Sullivan book are NOT "documentation" of the authenticity of a car. Give me a build sheet, broadcast card, or an original window sticker.

wmachine

What it boils down to in this case:
A genuine Broadcast Card with "W30" on it authenticates a W30.
But is there such a thing as a genuine W30 that *doesn't* have "W30" on its Broadcast Card?

rocketraider

I can only speak for 1974. My Hurst/Olds' broadcast clearly states "W30" when it is in fact a 350 appearance package car. Makes me think any and all 1974 Hurst may have been designated W30 for factory build and conversion purposes.

I've always been told Lansing did some strange things with build sheets/broadcast cards if they even left them with the car.

344870M

I've read so much misinformation on '70 W's in these car mags that it makes me wonder if what I read about a Shelby, a Hemi or a Stage 1 is accurate? The only thing IO took for gospel was any GTO article written by Paul Zazzerine.


That's what I'm wondering 'cause that would just open the flood gates on undocumented "I swear it's real" cars.

wmachine

Those gates has been busted down for some time now. Imagine what it like for the Corvette crowd. I hear that it is generally accepted that there are more big-block Corvettes on the road now than were ever made to begin with. And they're almost all "documented".

344870M

I received an excited phone call from a friend of my brother-in-law. Apparently he told his friend I was some wise old sage on all things 70 W-30.

I was asked to come look at the the 1970 442 W-30 he just bought. Oh yeah...it's also a convertible.......and a 4 spd.

I just returned from there. Apparently he went to look at a 69 GTX, got lost and stopped at a gas station where he noticed a car under a tarp at the side of the building. And that's where the story begins.

I pulled into his driveway and there in the corner of the garage sat what was left of a Ralley Red 1970 Olds (I'm not sure if it's even a 442 at this point). It is a convertible. It does have a ram air hood and W-30 emblems. It had a 4 speed. I opened the hood and there sat a complete, albeit tired ram air set up. The VIN confirms that it is a 442 out of Lansing. Data plate has no paint code. Ralley Red is obviously possible at this point. It has red fender wells. It does not have an open face alternator (which I only learned about this year thanks to these boards). It has the correct aluminum intake. It also has F heads and the correct exhaust manifolds. The engine color...not so much. A little too dark for my liking. More mid 70's blue. Uh-oh. Mid 70's distributor. Not looking real good. VIN pad on block? Not real accessible due to the p/s hoses in the way. I tried a pencil rubbing, I tried modeling clay couldn't get a real good print. I was able to make out two numbers visually but alas that number pairing was not in the VIN. I'm bumming the guy out now.

He shows me a pristine broadcast card encased in a picture frame. YES! The VIN on the card matched the car. YES! Does it have W-30 in one of the boxes? YES! OK . No it didn't. It was sooo hard telling this guy that based on everything I know about these cars, this is the only, ONLY true and supportive documentation. He was OK with it and accepted my verdict. I do not know what he paid for it but I'm sure that the parts he has will fetch more than that. Is the car restorable? I've posted pics, you be the judge. It has a lot of plastic in it. He pointed out how the W-30 emblems and the 442 emblems are identically weathered. Yes but time weathering is only relevant to a point. 25 years of elements look a lot like 30 years of elements.

He then directed me to the rear end. While I couldn't see it because of how the car was hemmed into the garage, he described the W-27 rear end. He asked a few questions about it and then said he scraped some of the dirt off the carrier itself. It's aluminum! It's not just the cover.

So what do we have here? I don't be it's a 1 of 96 4-spd W-30's with a "what are the odd of it not being marked correctly" broadcast cards. But then stranger things have happened. What is anyones take on this?

344870M

and the rear end pic

Diego

The seller at Russo & Steele was Jaffe out of Chicago, I believe. I've met him and seems like a knowledgeable and nice guy, but I cannot offer any answers regarding his car because I just don't know enough about documenting Oldsmobiles despite ownership of a similar car.

By the way, even Zazarine gets Pontiacs wrong at time.

344870M

Thanks a lot. Now I don't believe anybody!

joe_padavano

Well, it's obviously an assembled engine - the non-matching VIN derivative and the alternator bracket for an A/C car are obvious giveaways. Does the car have the PW and stereo called out on the broadcast card? Any chance the nose and W-27 were added (telltale things like the original paint on the fenders is different)? Obviously the W-30 emblems were there before the badly-applied red. Back in the 1970s these were just used cars and W-cars did find their way into wrecking yards. I personally pulled the rear axle out of a 1970 W-31 that was in a wrecking yard in Worcester, MA in the early 1970s. As a high school student, I was not able to afford the motor or even the intake. The hood was long gone. It's possible that the parts were installed over the last 39 years, since at least the engine has been wrenched on.

344870M

My sentiments too. Didn't catch the brackets though. Engine has obviously been Frankensteined. Stereo is on the B/C card. I'm sorry.
P/W? I told him that even if he could get the dealership to confirm that's it's legit only factory supportive paperwork is going to fly for a high dollar sale.

Does anybody think this is an entire Aluminum carrier? He's gonna call me when he gets more undercoating cleaned off. It looks aluminum to me.

And what's wrong with that beautiful paint job.

mugzilla

Without the original engine you will get as much as any 442 plus a li'l more for upgrades ...not high dollar but pretty high dollar ...

The paint code matched the rallye red paint and that's a popular color right now ...

Dan Wirth

I getting that in order to help with the anticipated doubt, the info in the Salesman's Affidavid says it all "...literature for this new car was limited". I'm also getting a strong sense that the owner knows the value of what documentation is missing, thus all the docs presented. It's too bad the owner didn't present any factory validation. (I think he probably would have, if he had it).

Dan.

joe_padavano

My sentiments exactly.

Dan Wirth

I like what you guys authored here on authentication...got this off the web. It would be great to send this info to this guy - could help him further authenticate his car - if you haven't already sent it - albeit a bit of info overload:

http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofwmc.htm

wmachine

Dan, just to enlighten you a bit, we prefer the "live" Wiki version of the old "dead" Olds FAQs:
http://www.oldsmobilewiki.com/index....ory:W_Machines

I agree with what was previously said in that I think he already knows what makes a real W30 and what it really takes to authenticate one, and he knows he doesn't have generally accepted documentation to prove the pedigree, thus the certs of authenticity and affidavits.

aliensatemybuick

I guess the question is then, as asked already in this thread, is it at all POSSIBLE that a W30 could have left the factory without having any such indication on the broadcast card? If so, and the car is legit, what a shame it is that a matter of 3 digits could make a difference of $100,000 in a car's value! I am skeptical of affidavits, but if the original owner and salesman both insist it came that way from the factory, I can understand why the current seller would want to document that. Then again, is that how the first owner was able to sell it for megabucks?

Pity that there are so many liars and cheats in this world that we can't trust anyone any more.

Dan Wirth

I'll look that version up. Interesting reading...wish I had some of the original factory documentation for my 57 Olds (unless it's hiding somewhere I haven't been yet). Only have had the car 3 mos. and still navigating around it. I do have the original pink slip/date stamped envelop, invoice and shop manuals, etc. (But think that is probably "no cigar").

I like the W-30s mui mucho and I am starting to appreciate them more, as I read the threads...
Dan

Dan Wirth

Well put!

WhatIf

I've wondered this myself. If someone has a fake car, all they need to do is approach the original owner and offer them say $1000 to have a fuzzy memory and recall their car from 35 years ago was a real W30. Still won't bite? Then offer them $5000. Still they say no, its unethical they say. How about $10,000? Whoa! Now they're listening. Ok, so NOW they'll sign an affidavit for 10 grand! Now the original owner (or whoever) signs that affidavit and all he has to do in the future is say "to the best of my recollection it was a W30". Doesn't this happen all the time where people bribe judges or witnesses? Some rich family might pay $25,000 to shut someone up, while the accused and their attorney may seek to make $2 million or so in a lawsuit if that witness clams up.

Anyway, yes, liars and cheats suck but thats the world we live in. I say if it doesn't say W30 on the card its not a W30.

wmachine

You don't have to go to all that trouble and expense. The sad reality is that the car, the numbers (stampings, VINS, Data Plates, and all), and the documentation can *all* be forged.
This is *one* of the things that high prices does for us.
Now are we still impressed when one sells for big money?

WhatIf

Exactly, and I agree! so this price that was paid for this car represented what a real documented 70 W30 4-speed convertible in mint condirtion would go for correct? I dont think there's any doubt that the guys that were bidding on this thought it was real, so whether it had the right broadcast card or not, this was top dollar. Looks like a very nice car and I like the color.

344870M

I personally don't believe that the first car, nor the car I looked at are real W-30's. I just don't see how such an omission could have occurred. IMO.

As far as affidavits go...Not only does the former owner of the the dealership where mine was originally bought, but the salesman and the service tech are all familiar with the car and their story supports the original owners. My local Olds dealer knows where the car came from and who bought it. I guess dealers have quite a communication pipeline. So the testimonials can support can be good. However I also have two people who swear they have seen my car pull the front end and that it ran high 12's in the quarter. Those kind of foggy testimonials can destroy any support.

And the original owner says the salesman told him the car made an actual 525 hp!!! Although I believe he really means 425, that kind of misspeak can be damaging.

wmachine

Meaning the "nearly $200k" it previously sold for at auction, I presume?
I'd say no. Couple reasons. I'm guessing it is still for sale at $189k, and probably less.
Sure a car is "worth what someone is willing to pay for it", but face it. We've all seen countless cars sell at BJ that just don't have the "market" price that they sold for.
Plus there are not enough real documented 70 W30 4-speed convertibles to establish a "market price".
*I* sure the %$#@ wouldn't buy one for $150k thinking I could sell it for more.
“You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?”

I'm guessing the guy that is selling the car paid mega bucks for it convinced that it was genuine and "worth evey penny". He *then* dug into it and found that it didn't have the magic bullet of documentation to prove it was real. So he scrambled to pull together every bit "other" documentation that he could possibly think of.
So in this whole process, he has learned 2 big lessons: One in how to *really* authenticate and Olds. Two, a lesson in ecomics.

344870M

^

I don't know if 96 of anything constitutes 'enough'. There are 'enough' 55-57 Chevys. I don't know about 4spd convertible W-30's though.

wmachine

That's "documented". And there sure aren't 96, documented or not.

344870M

I just meant that we're not exactly stumbling over them 'enough'. The original number (as with the 69 H/O's and the '66 W's and any other low number car) has dwindled down to a legitimate and sad, scarce few. If only we knew what really happened. Like I know that the '69 H/O that was owned by a guy a year ahead of me in high school, rolled it and junked it. This was before the mc market lit fire so there is a good chance that no one bothered to salvage it and it is now lost forever. One down.

joe_padavano

Reminds me of a 442 offered for sale here in the DC area on Craigslist. The seller, a dealer, made a big deal of the fact that the car was bought at BJ in 2007. My response is all that proves is that he paid too much for it...

Cameo White

Somewhat off and on post--back in the day these kinds of cars definitely got junked and salvaged. In 1979 or 1980 I bought a junk 69 442 convertible from a guy who pulled it out of a junkyard by St Louis. When I got it, it had a 455 under the hood, and the complete nose from a 69 H/O on the front (although initially I didn't know what it was--I just thought it was cool). The 455 was shot (bent pushrods, broken rockers, bad rod knock, busted rings, scored cylinders, etc--abused beyond worth) and I discarded it in favor of a running engine. Same for the trans. Over time as I rebuilt the 442, I came to understand what that front clip was off of--and that was the start of my desire to have a real 69 H/O. It pains me now to think that I may have sent to salvage a 69 H/O 455 and TH 400 back then, for all I know.

That nose was real--they weren't repopping the parts back then. Plus the fenders were white as their base color--with no holes for 442 emblems. The scoop was also white. The headlamp doors were even all black instead of the silver and black of the 442--I still have them in the basement, since I replaced them with easy to find NOS parts I paid about 20 bucks a piece for at the time.

mugzilla

My friend let me have a '68 Firebird after we stripped a round port engine, posi and d/b set up off it...

Later we figured out that it was optioned like a Trans Am one year before they came out ....

no formula decals or badges. I bet it would sell at a premium anyways...
(*O*) ...

344870M

In reference to the car I inspected. He's a nice guy but I think he may be not be seeing the forest for the trees. He called me tonight and said he had a VIN match on the engine/body. I do not believe this to be the case based on the obvious visuals alone and of the two numbers I was able to lift from the block pad, they were not in the VIN. He keeps saying how the car has all the parts and pieces of a W-30. He also wonders if someone bought a 442 and later decided they wanted a W-30 and had the dealer convert it. I explained that this would still not be a true W-30 as it was not produced by Oldsmobile but rather an enthusiast. I feel bad.

08-141 K43727

I can confirm that I have a documented 1969 442 W-30. I can confirm with a build sheet the group 37 #4 =W30 option code. I can also confirm that I have located 2 additional broadcast cards and neither has W30 option codes. The interior broadcast cards confirm the body matches the VIN via cross reference from the cowl (body number) to broadcast (body number and order number) to build sheet (order number and vin). The body and trim info and the buckets and extra speaker are the only notations on my broadcast cards, along with order number.

I have not yet pulled the tank to determine if there is one last card that contains all option codes... fingers crossed... I am still sifting through boxes and boxes and more boxes of papers from my father ... hoping to find the window sticker, protectoplate, and owners manual.... fingers crossed...

THANK YOU ALL for all of this... those who have and are finding documents, Joe and everyone else who just know so much, keep it alive!!

dc2x4drvr

Old thread...

Andy

Joe, does anyone really know for sure if every W30 had that listed on the broadcast card? I have read many posts here debating this, just never saw a concrete yes or no on it.

Koda

There are 69s that don't that have been verified in other ways.

no1oldsfan

Nothing wrong with reviving an old thread. Knowledge is a good thing.

no1oldsfan

Please post any factory build sheets or whatever anything you have. It helps all of us Oldsmobile geeks.