GEARMAN69

Just curious what folks here have experienced with high performance small block cars that retained the stock manifolds or the Thornton JR 's IE: Pure Stock or F.A.S.T. class racing W-31 cars.. I think low's 13's is the best I have seen online and that was with Thorntons I think. How many 13 second cars and or with triple digit traps speeds without headers? This includes knowledge of any special purpose built cars with custom dual pattern cams etc to work around the restrictions.

GEARMAN69

Not really counting any giant stroker 450 ci 350DX small blocks with 12:1 or more but rather 350-380 ci stuff 9.5-11:1 ish

GEARMAN69

For example.. some of the old road tests like Rallye 350's had 15.2-15.4 et and 89-94 mph. A 69 w31 automatic went 14's at 96. A stock 68 w31 4 speed with stock tires went 14.4 at 99 but with slicks and headers and shimming rockers it went 13.8-14.0 100-102. Another racer (at the time of the 68 test ) with a 68 w31 that was more dialed in had gone 13.0 106 w headers and slicks. As it stands for old road tests the w31 with manifolds made it to 99. Newer built FAST class W31 cars have gone about as fast as the 13.0-106 stocker racer without headers but the FAST racer has the super tune , blueprinted, milled , decked, high compression with race fuel, custom cam or blueprint W31 cam and better manifolds . Just looking for any input from guys racing there 68-72 350 cars at various levels stock to modified.

GEARMAN69

Very nice, that's what I was hoping to for. Did you know their name ?

Thanks

GEARMAN69

Thanks, I think I found it http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...&Number=138215

junior supercar

Yep, that's it. Casey is a member here, rarely posts though.

fwiw, my W-31 has gone 13.8 @ 100 back in 2009 at a local track. While the drivetrain is Pure Stock legal, the rusted body isn't.

Dave H's 68 Ram Rod has done I believe 13.30s @ 105 or so at the Pure Stock Drags. I don't know the exact mph.

Not sure what W-31s have raced in FAST. I believe Scott Pierce's 69 F-85 with the W-31 option ran at the Supercar Races. It's kinda like FAST, but not. No clue what it ran though.

GEARMAN69

Good Stuff Jr. SC , Thanks

I found some other performance of 70 4 speed L74 350 cars that had the better 286/.472 cam also which I am pretty interested in how they performed too.

http://www.v8buick.com/archive/index.php/t-62169.html
"
Dennis Jensen
12-21-2004, 05:19 PM
Howdy everyone. This is my first time posting on the site, though I've been following it for a long time. Dave H. refered to my Cutlass S, that was built in April of '70 which has the L74 350 'QB" code, which Olds installed their old manual trans cam, 286/286 @ .472" lift. This was a mid year offering that pretty much coincided with the Rallye 350 development. The May 1970 Car Life magazine tested a Rallye with the M-21 and 3.42 gears and went 15.25 @ 94 mph with two people in the car. My brother, Dan has run my car at the track a couple of times and turned a 14.74 @ 95 mph pure stock, and a 14.40 @ 97 mph swapping in a M-20. So, the stick models could hold their own. :3gears: :3gears:"

97 mph with a L74 4 speed 3.91's and a M20 instead of M21 not too bad at all since showroom stock W31's are 96-100 mph cars

GEARMAN69

Parts of this whole thing is to think through how I build by L74 for my 4 speed Rallye that now has a M20 to go with the 3.91's. First thought was just built it to W31 spec or as far as pistons and OEM W31 cam but with bigger valves and some porting but problem is I hate headers with Z bars and this is a restoration but with some stock style racing in mind. I can't tolerate the thought of high 14 to low 15 second car with 3.91's ..LOL Needs to be at least 13's on sticky tires but with manifolds is all I am asking.. Also like alot the thought of getting the correct mid year 286/.472 cam the came in the car and using the forged L2321F 030 L74 pistons instead of the L2320F 030 W31 units since I really don't want it blend in race fuel. Target 9.5:1 +/- .1 .. Thats where the custom cam idea comes into play with it being smaller than a W31 cam but larger than the OEM 286/.472 one with a long dual pattern designed to run with manifolds and full exhaust. Toying with thought of using some Howards lobes 221 intake at 050 and the 235 lobe of the exhaust with a 110 LSA if its 9.5:1 but if I build it as 10:1 I would go 112 LSA and 1.7 rockers.. Mind you this also with head porting 2.07/1.68 valves. I know headers are 100% the way to go and this is weird but this is all about stock appearing too.. Cheaper build if I leave the heads all stock and just rebuild them , use the new 286/.472 OEM cam and the forged L74 6 cc dish pistons but I hate the thought of not improving the head flow greatly. This is why I am gauging a range of stock performance W31 versus L74 etc.. Alll said and done it seems the best thing is some head work , at least 2.00 1.625 valves probably the dual pattern cam and I do like the Comp 275 DEH for this build also as far as a shelf grind. The 275 has a 14 degree split 219/233 110 LSA nice cam with 9.5:1 and the 3.91 gears IMO

drop top olds

If you want it to be stock appearing, why not use a custom ground cam and get creative on the pistons and rods to find a lighter combo? If you don't tell nobody will know

GEARMAN69

Well the custom cam is pretty sure thing but as far as tricky pricey light rotating parts. That aint happening, not in the budget. Keep in mind this is not a class rules max effort full time race thing. Just a few mods to improve it. I am not running race fuel when its going. It wont see tons of track time just a few passes from time to time. If I lived in the North Central or North East where the FAST or PSMCDR stuff happened I might have a different answer. If it was go as fast as I can kinda small block stock appearing without limits then it would be a 450 ci DX block and 12:1 ... why stop at 350 ci at 10.5-11.0 :1 if your going to run race fuel then really need it..lol.

drop top olds

Sonic check your block. Run SBC 400 pistons if you can overbore .068" They are lighter and cheaper. Work the crank for SBC rods, lighter and cheaper. It may be an option for you.

GEARMAN69

Sounds cool man, I will consider that too. This is real early in on the thoughts and options.

GEARMAN69

I would be curious if Casey would share cam specifics and compression ratio details just for reference.

83hurstguy

I'd recommend you get a set of CP bullet pistons from BTR, offset grind a 330 crank, use a Chevy rod and get to 375 cubic inch. The light rotating weight and thinner ring pack will pay you back with more power, less stress on the bottom end, faster revs, and less heat from ring friction...

The pistons are shown here:
http://highperformanceolds.com/phpbb...hp?f=28&t=1874

It's not the cheapest option, but you'll also have the "do it once and do it right" bottom end that you'll never have to mess with again...

People overlook what engine rotating weight and a good piston with modern ring technology can do for you. Here's a build he did with that combo, dyno sheet is on page 3:

http://highperformanceolds.com/phpbb...hp?f=1&t=2870&

430 lb-ft and 406 hp should make it plenty fast...

GEARMAN69

Good stuff, Thanks.. If it gets balanced then for sure I will consider lighter alternatives and custom things against cost..etc.. Likely I will do head first before any block work and see what I end up with then if I decent to go stock ish on the short block at first I leave open the thought of a cool stroker short block I could use if the car goes towards the race side of things and the heads would already be done. IE: a 9.5:1 355 driver that runs 13-14's then swap heads over and bam a bigger 11-12:1 race gas stroker 375-450 ci depending on short block plan and a bigger cam. The headers can always be added later too if I decide too

oldsmobiledave

Can someone post pictures of the Casey Marks car please.

GEARMAN69

I will find link its on here. its the Sherwood Green 70 W31 F85 post car green interior, column shift automatic with 4.66 gears. It was sold a few ago out of Canada

GEARMAN69

Dave , I think its this one you posted about https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ost-coupe.html

maybe not

I think I meant this thread https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...nal-miles.html

In the second think , There is a pic of a green one with white side stripe and dog dish caps, I think that is Casey's car or was

junior supercar

neither one of those is Casey's car. I'm surprised it's not on the yenko link. I can't see some pics from work, they get blocked.


I had forgotten about Dennis Jensen's 70. But then again you asked about W-31 cars.

GEARMAN69

This is a video of it at the track but with the new owners I think....... It was at a Pure Stock race.

BlackGold

Probably not. Lets just say he either met the Pure Stock rules or was close enough to not get DQ'ed.

Of note is that after Casey sold his car, the new owners have never run as quick. I wonder if Casey removed a couple key parts .....

Also of note is that Casey's uncle (?) was a racer and had connections with Oldsmobile back in the day. Some very interesting parts were found in his garage. I wonder if Casey .....

Someone please correct me if I'm all wet.

GEARMAN69

I read that Caseys dad W31 back in the day waaay back in 70's was running 12.3

junior supercar

Yep, that's it. It went through at least a couple owners after Casey sold it. James Kryta owns it now.

junior supercar

Yes Mr. Headers :-) (sorry, had to be said). Casey certified that car when he owned it. I have his certification numbers saved on my external hard drive (they are probably still on v8buick somewhere). Only thing I can recall off the top of my head is 11:1 compression I believe.

Casey removed several things, one of which is the 4.66 ring and pinon, which rktolds bought (I already had a 4.66 ring and pinon) and has since listed for sale here and put the 3.91 back in (which is what is currently in the car). rktolds told me Casey is buying them back. Casey has shared some of his tips on v8buick, in person or in private with me. He had a TON a seat time in that car and STACKS of time slips from Milan Dragway. I seem to recall him saying he bought something like 8 set of spark plugs in order to get one set that was indexed perfectly.

I also know after Casey sold the car, the cam was changed at least once. It currently runs consistent 13.30s

His uncle, Jack Marks, raced W-31s back in the day. Last year Casey told me he located one of his uncles old race cars (69 W-31 maybe, can't recall). It's rough and the current owners want way to much for it.

1969w3155

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7TD...M1N1JpY0E/edit Enlarge and scroll down to Casey Marks, ran a 12.82.

1969w3155

From 2010, after it was sold. Somewhere I have more pics.

WThirtyOne

Whatcha wanna know ?

Yes, the Sherwood Green F85 W-31 was mine. It's best was 12.82@107.95 in Certified, Pure Stock Drags attire. It was a TH350 / 4.66 "O" axle combo. I did sell it, and the subsequent owner wanted the original 3.91's back in. He proceeded to change cams and God knows what else and successfully slowed the car down by half a second. Go figure ......

And Yes, Jack Marks is my uncle, and successfully campaigned W-31's for prominent Olds dealers in Michigan. And contrary to popular belief, he had absolutely nothing to do with my car. Parts, knowledge, etc. I was on my own. Lots of time behind the wheel and under the hood. And unlike a lot of guys, my times were run with a single point 1111975 distributor tuned by myself, no dyno time, and no LM1 or other "sniffer"..... Just good old fashioned plug reading. No fancy pants QJet tuner-guy. Just me. No lightweight internal TH350. The combo just really came together as a killer W-31 package.

As far as cam specs, aren't factory W-31 camshaft specifications readily available ?

PS - I have located his '68 Ebony Black F85 RamRod. Found this past summer. I found his '70 F85 W-31 a few years ago, and it is virtually junk. Tough life ..... His '69 Lines Olds W-31 was turned back into the dealership, sold to a young kid that decided to try to outrun a train track crossing. Train won.

Anyway, I had a ton of fun with my W-31 and have even thought about building a "Round 2" motor, maximizing all of the things I left on the table on my first go-round. Unfortunately, no car to put it in. Kinda necessary.

WThirtyOne

Jack's '68 RamRod

WThirtyOne

Jack's '70 F85 W-31

'69 W-31 is my avatar....

83hurstguy

Two badazz cars there! I like the post '68 H/O too... know anything about that? It was either a post car with power antenna or radio delete...

johnnyjaws

my old stock 325hp cutlass s did 14,s every run

oldsmobiledave

BS. You did not have a 325 hp Cutlass. PLEASE Stop making this claim & embarrassing yourself. Only the W-31 could get the 325 hp 350.

GEARMAN69

Thanks for chiming in Casey and for those cool old pics of your uncles old cars. Its a inspiration too see what can be done with stock appearing SBO muscle

WThirtyOne

TIP #1: Start with the understanding that attention to every possible detail is important.

TIP #2: Don't let Top Fuel engine builders baffle you with bullshit about how a car using stock manifolds, a QJet, and Polyglas tires should be built and setup. Headers, slicks, and a Holley DP are a whole different animal.

GEARMAN69

Thats right, I am already a seasoned Q jet man no issues there and have had some stock appearing / stock size tire radial experience with my Pontiacs but keep in mind I am not building my car to compete in any competition. Unforunately none of the Pure Stock or FAST races are done here in TX. Mine will be pump gas and have some non stock mods here and there internally. I have always cherished letting the Chevy or Mopar guys see the old Qjet on the iron intake and iron exhaust manifolds just scratching there heads after they lost to it... even had a Poncho Qjet on a Chevy 406 in a S10 ...well that ran good too.. wheels up and gone

BlackGold

Thanks for touching base, Casey, and filling in some details!