Exhaust:blue smoke,and leaded additive
May 2nd, 2012, 06:49 PM
#1
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Exhaust:blue smoke,and leaded additive
So I have a 67 Cutlass 330 motor.I start it once a week.Very smoky at first.A blue smoke to be more precise.After a few minutes, the blue smoke goes away.
The odor of gas or oil is strongly present.
Also,I found a lead additive in the back trunk.And have been adding this to the gas(via gas can)This car has been in the a garage for the last 10 years.The lead additive is probably that old.I'm looking for some direction .Do I need the Lead additive? And is the blue smoky smelly fumes a writing on the wall(rebuild)
Or a rich burning carb(a bad carb?)
Thank you for sure.
The odor of gas or oil is strongly present.
Also,I found a lead additive in the back trunk.And have been adding this to the gas(via gas can)This car has been in the a garage for the last 10 years.The lead additive is probably that old.I'm looking for some direction .Do I need the Lead additive? And is the blue smoky smelly fumes a writing on the wall(rebuild)
Or a rich burning carb(a bad carb?)
Thank you for sure.
May 2nd, 2012, 07:33 PM
#2
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I'm gonna guess the valve seals have broken into little pieces, [plastic] and clogged the oil return holes in the head.
When you start the car, the oil sits in the head, as it's got nowhere to go, and slides down the valve guides, into the combustion chamber.
Every time you start the car, this happens until you burn-off the accumulated oil.
[just had the same thing on a '65 442]
You don't need the lead unless your driving the car, and once every 2 weeks is alright, instead of once a week.
A change to high-mileage oil might help.
When you start the car, the oil sits in the head, as it's got nowhere to go, and slides down the valve guides, into the combustion chamber.
Every time you start the car, this happens until you burn-off the accumulated oil.
[just had the same thing on a '65 442]
You don't need the lead unless your driving the car, and once every 2 weeks is alright, instead of once a week.
A change to high-mileage oil might help.
May 3rd, 2012, 05:53 AM
#4
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Blue smoke at startup, and not on acceleration, is a classic sign of worn valve guides or bad valve guide seals.
If it's the former, you'll need the heads redone with new guides.
If it's the latter, it's seals (which will buy you time on the former).
They're not hard to change, just a bit methodical -
you have to use an air compressor fitting to put air pressure into the spark plug holes,
one at a time, you position each cylinder at TDC with valves closed, connect air, pressurize, using a lever-type valve spring compressor remove the keepers and release and remove each spring, replace the seals, reassemble, and move on to the next cylinders. The seals are less than $20 a set.
Doing this sort of a job will make you wish you'd gone with a 4 cylinder car
.
- Eric
If it's the former, you'll need the heads redone with new guides.
If it's the latter, it's seals (which will buy you time on the former).
They're not hard to change, just a bit methodical -
you have to use an air compressor fitting to put air pressure into the spark plug holes,
one at a time, you position each cylinder at TDC with valves closed, connect air, pressurize, using a lever-type valve spring compressor remove the keepers and release and remove each spring, replace the seals, reassemble, and move on to the next cylinders. The seals are less than $20 a set.
Doing this sort of a job will make you wish you'd gone with a 4 cylinder car
.- Eric
May 3rd, 2012, 07:51 AM
#5
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Thats the procedure. Just do not drop valve keepers, they are easy to lose. I actually watched a fellow do them with a length of rope. He turned engine until intake valve closed, started piston in the compression stroke. Then he fed a quarter inch rope into the cylinder through the spark plug hole, leaving at least 6 inches of rope hanging out. Then turned engine untill piston pushed rope against valves. Removed keeper and spring, installed seal and replaced. Then turned engine in opposite direction and removed rope.
I prefer the air pressure method. You can buy the fitting, but I made mine from an old compression tester.
I prefer the air pressure method. You can buy the fitting, but I made mine from an old compression tester.
May 3rd, 2012, 08:16 AM
#6
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That's what I did on the 65 - replaced the seals, which solved the start-up smoking.
Super PIA, as I had to figure a way to compress the springs-universal tool wasn't much good!
And, make sure you've a big magnet handy for the keepers - 2 just flew away while releasing the spring!!
Super PIA, as I had to figure a way to compress the springs-universal tool wasn't much good!
And, make sure you've a big magnet handy for the keepers - 2 just flew away while releasing the spring!!
May 4th, 2012, 11:22 AM
#8
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If it is just valve seals, air pressure is the way to go. Back in the day I had a "pen" magnet for grabbing the keepers & then for actually putting them back in. Made it easier than trying to get them in and out with only your fingers. A good magnetic screwdriver will work as well. Something else we used to do was put a small dab of grease on the inside of the keeper to help hold it against the valve stem as the spring was released.
May 4th, 2012, 05:43 PM
#9
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Location
Blue smoke at startup, and not on acceleration, is a classic sign of worn valve guides or bad valve guide seals.
If it's the former, you'll need the heads redone with new guides.
If it's the latter, it's seals (which will buy you time on the former).
They're not hard to change, just a bit methodical -
you have to use an air compressor fitting to put air pressure into the spark plug holes,
one at a time, you position each cylinder at TDC with valves closed, connect air, pressurize, using a lever-type valve spring compressor remove the keepers and release and remove each spring, replace the seals, reassemble, and move on to the next cylinders. The seals are less than $20 a set.
Doing this sort of a job will make you wish you'd gone with a 4 cylinder car .
- Eric
If it's the former, you'll need the heads redone with new guides.
If it's the latter, it's seals (which will buy you time on the former).
They're not hard to change, just a bit methodical -
you have to use an air compressor fitting to put air pressure into the spark plug holes,
one at a time, you position each cylinder at TDC with valves closed, connect air, pressurize, using a lever-type valve spring compressor remove the keepers and release and remove each spring, replace the seals, reassemble, and move on to the next cylinders. The seals are less than $20 a set.
Doing this sort of a job will make you wish you'd gone with a 4 cylinder car
.- Eric
May 4th, 2012, 06:22 PM
#11
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As Rickman says, they are normally under the valve springs, around the valve stems.
The air pressure holds the valve closed. Using a tool made for it, you compress the spring, remove the spring keepers. Then let the tension off the spring and remove it.
The seal, if it is still there, then can be pulled off by hand from around the stem and the new one installed. Put the spring back on, compress it and install the keepers. Slowly uncompress the spring until it locks against the keepers.
There are at least 2 types of tools used to compress the spring. A lever type and a twist type that is somewhat similar to a gear puller.
The reason you can find pieces of the seals laying anywhere under the valve cover is that overtime they get hard and break into pieces.
I suggest that if you are unfamiliar with doing this, research it well and get help from someone that has done it. At the least, pull the valve covers, clean up the rocker arms and look for the seal pieces. Then judge your mechanic skills honestly and decide if you want to attack it.
OH, before you can remove the springs, you remove the rockers.
The air pressure holds the valve closed. Using a tool made for it, you compress the spring, remove the spring keepers. Then let the tension off the spring and remove it.
The seal, if it is still there, then can be pulled off by hand from around the stem and the new one installed. Put the spring back on, compress it and install the keepers. Slowly uncompress the spring until it locks against the keepers.
There are at least 2 types of tools used to compress the spring. A lever type and a twist type that is somewhat similar to a gear puller.
The reason you can find pieces of the seals laying anywhere under the valve cover is that overtime they get hard and break into pieces.
I suggest that if you are unfamiliar with doing this, research it well and get help from someone that has done it. At the least, pull the valve covers, clean up the rocker arms and look for the seal pieces. Then judge your mechanic skills honestly and decide if you want to attack it.
OH, before you can remove the springs, you remove the rockers.
May 4th, 2012, 07:13 PM
#12
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Rockers
As Rickman says, they are normally under the valve springs, around the valve stems.
The air pressure holds the valve closed. Using a tool made for it, you compress the spring, remove the spring keepers. Then let the tension off the spring and remove it.
The seal, if it is still there, then can be pulled off by hand from around the stem and the new one installed. Put the spring back on, compress it and install the keepers. Slowly uncompress the spring until it locks against the keepers.
There are at least 2 types of tools used to compress the spring. A lever type and a twist type that is somewhat similar to a gear puller.
The reason you can find pieces of the seals laying anywhere under the valve cover is that overtime they get hard and break into pieces.
I suggest that if you are unfamiliar with doing this, research it well and get help from someone that has done it. At the least, pull the valve covers, clean up the rocker arms and look for the seal pieces. Then judge your mechanic skills honestly and decide if you want to attack it.
OH, before you can remove the springs, you remove the rockers.
The air pressure holds the valve closed. Using a tool made for it, you compress the spring, remove the spring keepers. Then let the tension off the spring and remove it.
The seal, if it is still there, then can be pulled off by hand from around the stem and the new one installed. Put the spring back on, compress it and install the keepers. Slowly uncompress the spring until it locks against the keepers.
There are at least 2 types of tools used to compress the spring. A lever type and a twist type that is somewhat similar to a gear puller.
The reason you can find pieces of the seals laying anywhere under the valve cover is that overtime they get hard and break into pieces.
I suggest that if you are unfamiliar with doing this, research it well and get help from someone that has done it. At the least, pull the valve covers, clean up the rocker arms and look for the seal pieces. Then judge your mechanic skills honestly and decide if you want to attack it.
OH, before you can remove the springs, you remove the rockers.
May 4th, 2012, 07:24 PM
#13
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So I have to remove the rockers to replace the seals? Please explain.
Is there a "timing" issue here?
And also "thank you" What are the tools needed for the compressor?"exactly"
Is there a video of this? If not , We need to start an archive.
Thank you
Is there a "timing" issue here?
And also "thank you" What are the tools needed for the compressor?"exactly"
Is there a video of this? If not , We need to start an archive.
Thank you
May 4th, 2012, 08:34 PM
#14
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Yes.
You set the piston at TDC (as mentioned above) and unscrew the bolts holding them on.
No.
1 "pry bar type" valve spring compressor (not the "C-clamp" type).
I have no idea.
If you check your Chassis Service Manual, you will find brief instructions on the subject:
- Eric
You set the piston at TDC (as mentioned above) and unscrew the bolts holding them on.
No.
1 "pry bar type" valve spring compressor (not the "C-clamp" type).
I have no idea.
If you check your Chassis Service Manual, you will find brief instructions on the subject:
- Eric
May 5th, 2012, 08:17 PM
#17
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Doctor
Yes.
You set the piston at TDC (as mentioned above) and unscrew the bolts holding them on.
No.
Is this near to the heart of a 67 cutlass? I'm going to do it my self .For pride,dollars,Price,Please help me thru this.Thank you for sure.
1 "pry bar type" valve spring compressor (not the "C-clamp" type).
I have no idea.
If you check your Chassis Service Manual, you will find brief instructions on the subject:
- Eric
You set the piston at TDC (as mentioned above) and unscrew the bolts holding them on.
No.
Is this near to the heart of a 67 cutlass? I'm going to do it my self .For pride,dollars,Price,Please help me thru this.Thank you for sure.
1 "pry bar type" valve spring compressor (not the "C-clamp" type).
I have no idea.
If you check your Chassis Service Manual, you will find brief instructions on the subject:
- Eric
May 5th, 2012, 08:32 PM
#18
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June 4th, 2013, 05:32 PM
#19
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Everyday Driver
I'm gonna guess the valve seals have broken into little pieces, [plastic] and clogged the oil return holes in the head.
When you start the car, the oil sits in the head, as it's got nowhere to go, and slides down the valve guides, into the combustion chamber.
Every time you start the car, this happens until you burn-off the accumulated oil.
[just had the same thing on a '65 442]
You don't need the lead unless your driving the car, and once every 2 weeks is alright, instead of once a week.
A change to high-mileage oil might help.
When you start the car, the oil sits in the head, as it's got nowhere to go, and slides down the valve guides, into the combustion chamber.
Every time you start the car, this happens until you burn-off the accumulated oil.
[just had the same thing on a '65 442]
You don't need the lead unless your driving the car, and once every 2 weeks is alright, instead of once a week.
A change to high-mileage oil might help.
Or are they all the same kit? Thanks!
June 4th, 2013, 06:15 PM
#23
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Lead
I have no (no lead additive) It has only a 108,000 miles ! owner not abused, garage kept, I used to start up and blue smoke would disappear , now it's constant. Can I replace valve guides only?
June 4th, 2013, 06:49 PM
#24
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Not to be rude, but I do not believe you have the mechanical knowledge needed to get this job done properly by yourself. Some of the questions you ask tells me you need to get a hold of a mechanic to solve your oil burning problem. There are a hundred ways to do a job wrong, but only one way to do it right. I know everybody has to start somewhere, but cylinder head work is not one of them.
June 4th, 2013, 07:06 PM
#25
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If it's smoking all the time, the valve guide seals go down the list a few notches in terms of their likelihood of being the cause, and rings go up a few notches.
Valve guide seals typically smoke on startup after being stopped for a while, then don't.
Valve guides typically smoke when you let your foot OFF the gas pedal to decelerate.
Rings typically smoke when you step on the gas.
Which does yours do, exactly?
- Eric
Valve guide seals typically smoke on startup after being stopped for a while, then don't.
Valve guides typically smoke when you let your foot OFF the gas pedal to decelerate.
Rings typically smoke when you step on the gas.
Which does yours do, exactly?
- Eric
June 4th, 2013, 07:13 PM
#26
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I'm going to have to agree with 1970-w30 on this. Do you have anyone that can help you do this? The valve guide seals are an easy job for someone who has done it before and has the proper tools. The other issue you may run into is that when you air up the cylinders you may find a leaking head gasket, which is what happened on my car. Then it became a full blown valve job.
What I would do if you don't know anyone, is take the car to a reputable mechanic to evaluate your engine. They need to perform a proper compression test, check the timing chain play, basically tell you the current condition of the engine. Then make an educated decision on what to do.
What I would do if you don't know anyone, is take the car to a reputable mechanic to evaluate your engine. They need to perform a proper compression test, check the timing chain play, basically tell you the current condition of the engine. Then make an educated decision on what to do.
June 4th, 2013, 07:24 PM
#27
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Aw, c'mon, guys. Anybody can change a set of valve guide seals, provided that he doesn't mind the risk of losing the tiny keepers when they fall out Heaven-knows-where, or of losing a valve down inside the cylinder, or of having a spring go POP! in his face.
Personally, I'm not convinced that changing the seals is actually the thing he needs to do to fix his problem.
- Eric
Personally, I'm not convinced that changing the seals is actually the thing he needs to do to fix his problem.
- Eric
June 5th, 2013, 07:00 PM
#31
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Lots of very good advice here and I am going to throw something into this equasion that has not been mentioned or done that will probably be a cheap fix, since this olds has been sitting more than driven....Here goes...as far as the blue smoke not going away, try pouring some marvel mystery oil or transmission fluid in each cylinder(an ounce or two) and letting it sit for a few days...spark plugs will need to be removed of course..after it has sit and soaked for a few days, crank the engine over several times before installing the plugs.....then ,install the plugs in the engine,fire it up ...run the engine if possible at highway operating rpm's and see if that helps,because ,sometimes an older engine that is not run or operated for periods of time have a tendency to get stuck rings..Granted, you probably need to change the umbrella seals under your valve springs especially,if it has never been done, but before I pulled a head or did any major engine dissassembly of the engine, try this little trick to see if you get any positive results...( If you do try this, the engine will smoke quite a bit at first but should soon clear up)... dp
Last edited by panther80; June 5th, 2013 at 07:22 PM. Reason: spelling
June 6th, 2013, 03:56 PM
#33
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Lots of very good advice here and I am going to throw something into this equasion that has not been mentioned or done that will probably be a cheap fix, since this olds has been sitting more than driven....Here goes...as far as the blue smoke not going away, try pouring some marvel mystery oil or transmission fluid in each cylinder(an ounce or two) and letting it sit for a few days...spark plugs will need to be removed of course..after it has sit and soaked for a few days, crank the engine over several times before installing the plugs.....then ,install the plugs in the engine,fire it up ...run the engine if possible at highway operating rpm's and see if that helps,because ,sometimes an older engine that is not run or operated for periods of time have a tendency to get stuck rings..Granted, you probably need to change the umbrella seals under your valve springs especially,if it has never been done, but before I pulled a head or did any major engine dissassembly of the engine, try this little trick to see if you get any positive results...( If you do try this, the engine will smoke quite a bit at first but should soon clear up)... dp
June 6th, 2013, 04:10 PM
#34
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Engine has 108,000 purrs like a kitten after warmed up. Idles around 5-600 r.p.m runs cool, Timing chain? I don't think it's been changed. She didn't mention it. She mentioned other things replaced but not the chain. Maybe a compression check will be in order as Old cutlass suggest as well. I'll keep all informed Thanks
June 6th, 2013, 04:39 PM
#36
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June 6th, 2013, 06:04 PM
#37
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You want a "good" chain, not a cheap chain.
The cheapo ones can have a lot of slack, right out of the box, and the sprockets can be mis-marked, causing your timing to be off.
I'd recommend something like a Cloyes Tru-Roller, but I'm sure there are plenty of other good chains out there.
There has been discussion in these pages about the consequences of a chain that slips a tooth (or two), which tends to happen somewhere just over 100,000 miles (ie: right where you are now). Apparently the design of the engine is supposed to not allow the pistons to come in contact with the valves (a "non-interference" design), however, I have personally had a high compression 350 skip a tooth at idle (no drag racing) and bend valves, so I wouldn't mess around with it.
- Eric
The cheapo ones can have a lot of slack, right out of the box, and the sprockets can be mis-marked, causing your timing to be off.
I'd recommend something like a Cloyes Tru-Roller, but I'm sure there are plenty of other good chains out there.
There has been discussion in these pages about the consequences of a chain that slips a tooth (or two), which tends to happen somewhere just over 100,000 miles (ie: right where you are now). Apparently the design of the engine is supposed to not allow the pistons to come in contact with the valves (a "non-interference" design), however, I have personally had a high compression 350 skip a tooth at idle (no drag racing) and bend valves, so I wouldn't mess around with it.
- Eric
June 6th, 2013, 07:18 PM
#38
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coil wire
Mudeye, It certainly will not hurt to remove the coil wire, just as a precaution, as with any petroleum/solvent ,there is a flammability possibility ...Have not known marvel mystery oil to be explosive in that particular application/use....but..it is always good to be on the safe side and eliminate the possibility of a fire...good common sense goes a long way when there is even a remote possibilty of fire...Be Safe and I wish you the best of luck as you address the blue smoke issue... Keep us posted on your progress...
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