MudEye

Starting: HEI vs. Points - No difference at all.
Idle: HEI vs. Points - Points actually runs smoother, and timing runs cooler.
Highway: HEI vs. Points - No difference at all, RPMs are relative to the gears used and transmission type/wear and I don't race the car.
Plug gaps: HEI vs. Points - still gapped at .040. Tried .050 and .060 but the car didn't like that.
Plug wires: Obviously had to change wires to accomodate HEI. Prefer Packard wires for original look.

So Allen From your quote here...... Where and what kind of points do You recommend? Best quality? Or How to set the cheap ones? You still use points right?

s i 442

You can run what ever you like makes me no difference.
But from my experience with points welding themselves together, weak spark, and small plug wires, I like to upgrade to HEI, because I like the increased spark plug gap, bigger wires, and no maintenance at all.
My cars have always ran smoother, revved quicker, and the exhaust spelled better because of the better burnt fuel.
But this is my experiences and our cars are two different cars and im sure I tune different than another person does, so just keep a spare $21 set of points and a dwell meter in the glove box and your set for the road.

oldcutlass

Standard motor products performance points Part # DR2371XP or DR2270XP. Carry a feeler gauge and set them to .016 which should get you close to a dwell of 30.

These are at Rockauto but you may find them at your local parts house:

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...parttype,11337

You need a tool similar to this for adjusting the points

Fun71

I have no idea how much experience you have with points, but I ran points for over a decade in a hot street application and didn't have any of the issues you mentioned. Sounds like someone left the ignition on for an extended time without the engine running if the points welded together. HEI won't do that exact same thing, but the module will heat up and could eventually fail if the ignition is left on long enough. Weak spark sounds more like a problem with the coil or voltage feed and not the points themselves.

I don't know why you keep on about "bigger wires" as if that somehow makes them conduct electricity better. The HEI uses thicker insulation but the center conductor is a resistance wire, exactly the same as the thinner points wires, and therefore both restrict current flow compared to a non-resistor wire. It doesn't matter how thick the insulation is since it is just that, insulation around the conductive core. Its purpose is to prevent arcing, not conduct electricity better.

TripDeuces

Wider gaps on your plugs aren't doing you a bit of good but they are playing havoc with your secondary ignition.

wls559

Thats great!

I like my Petronics......I also have a stock points setup in the trunk.

Bill

s i 442

My reply was not open to debate, move along.

TripDeuces

It's a forum. Everything you say is open to debate.

Forum - a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged

joe_padavano

No, he's right. There is no debating that his posts are ill-informed...

s i 442

If a wire is arcing and you insulate it better so it doesn't then wouldn't be more spark to the plug?
Wires do make a difference, I remember opening the hood in the dark and seeing those junk 7mm arcing everywhere after I added a Accel super coil to a points system

joe_padavano

If the wire is arcing at all, you're screwed. I've seen all sizes of wires arc as they deteriorate. By the way. there is nothing preventing you from using 8mm or larger wires on a point-style distributor.

Koda

Pretty much this, along with a predisposition to getting butthurt.

Fun71

Yes, if you have worn out parts, which you obviously had if the wires were arcing, then installing new parts should make the engine run better. If you had installed new, quality 7mm wires at the time you installed the coil, then you wouldn't have seen any arcing. I ran an Accel Super Coil with 7mm wires on my points distributor for a decade without any issues.

It appears that you are comparing old, worn out, malfunctioning parts on your points system to new, properly functioning parts on an HEI system and concluding that HEI is better than points. I'm sure you can see the obvious problem with this "comparison".

I agree with you that if your entire ignition system is worn out to the point of needing to be repaired/replaced, then buying a new HEI, wires, etc may be a good choice. That does not mean that it will be better than a correctly functioning points system though.

Professur

All I'm gonna say on the topic is ... when your points are shot, you can see it at a glance. When the module goes ... swapping parts or testing everything except the module is the answer. I work with electronics all day ... I'm not a fan of black box systems.

70cutty

i wonder how far is this thread gonna make it, so far 3 pages of "HEI is better.......NO points are better".

This is sounds like my grandma's conversation with her friends.

Professur

Your Granny and her friends have arguments over HEI/points? That is so totally cool.

pogo69

Magneto anyone?

Fun71

Agreed!

What does Granny drive?

Fun71

I wasn't gonna get to that until Page 5.

wls559

Well, they say never discuss religion or politics with friends.....guess I will have to add Points vs. HEI to that list!

Bill

joe_padavano

A magneto still uses points. The only difference is that the mag generates it's own current and doesn't require external power. You still need to open the points to collapse the electric field in the transformer and generate the high voltage.

jaunty75

"Had to go the Rolls Royce agency. Had to steal a spare magneto!"

70cutty

My grandma said HEI gave her car 75hp over points. She also said magneto sucks.

s i 442

Im pretty sure if laying on a table for sale, a brand new points set up, wires and coil, for $150, or a brand new HEI set up and wires for $75 most would pick the points set up because in their mind a two barrel will out perform a 4 barrel.

Fun71

Sorry to be so blunt, but that's a really idiotic thing to say and you know it. You're just being spiteful.

You seem to have an attitude that folks here are old fogies who care more about exact originality than any form of performance, and you are just the opposite, with performance taking high priority over originality. I run into the same thing here in the Phoenix area with what I consider very wealthy folks who recently bought a classic as a "hobby" to hang out at car shows and don't do any of their own work and care nothing about performance. I'm just the opposite, as I have been driving and hot rodding this car since folks were giving me crap about having an old car that was uncool and saying I needed to buy a new car. I have learned that it is possible to have both performance and originality - at least in outward appearances.

Remember that the "real" performance cars like the W-30s and W-31s (and other manufacturers muscle cars) that had high compression and turned high RPM used old school points and skinny wires and it didn't detract from their performance potential.

I have a couple suggestions for you to help upgrade your ignition system for better performance (yes, the stock HEI can be improved upon), if you don't take offense and you're willing to listen after what I posted above.

TripDeuces

Bad analogy 101

rustyroger

Hey!, you forgot hot tube .


Roger.

s i 442

No thanks, that would be a "catch 22" because no matter what part I said I bought it would be wrong to prove your point, ain't playing that game, my cars run fine and have for over 30 years, I don't need any help unless I ask for it.

Seff

I was of the impression that a wider gap makes for a larger spark and a more complete combustion?

Reminds me that I promised to test my .080" versus points-style .035" plugs. I'll get around to that. >.>

Allan R

You can buy AC Delco points and condenser, cap, rotor etc. at Rockauto.com for very little cost. They also have a 'bundle' with everything for a tune up. I wouldn't buy the "OEM NOS" stuff going on the web for big $$ when other replacement parts will do just as well.

You could also use O'Reilly or Autozone. The parts aren't expensive.

Pick whatever wires you need/want. Before you do that though run them through a resistance check to see if they need replacing. If they're good, no need to spend money unnecessarily. Don't forget to test the coil wire too. Check inside the spark plug boots on both ends to see if they have any evidence of corrosion or arcing. Arcing will mean the connector in the boot was too loose (can be corrected with needle nose pliers) on the spark plug tip, corrosion is self explanatory. Either one will affect the way voltage is sent to the plugs.

rustyroger

That isn't completely accurate. A larger gap will require a higher voltage to make a spark jump the gap, but all else being equal the spark duration will be shorter. If the gap is too big the spark might not be able to make the jump, resulting in totally incomplete combustion. A higher powered coil will address this.
Many modern ultra clean burning engines have plug voltage that old fashioned points couldn't live with, some sophisticated designs have coils individually mounted onto each plug, the wattage (amps x volts = watts) would probably kill someone with a weak heart.


Roger.

Seff

For what it's worth, NGK supports what both of us said.

jag1886

Good grief can't believe you guys are still beating this poor old dead horse. If you are a contortionist and want to deal with your points every few hundred miles go ahead. Me I'll check my timing at oil changes and be happy and keep an extra module in my tool box.

Fun71

You must have me confused with someone else. I have no intention of proving any point or telling you that you bought the wrong parts; I was merely offering to share what I have learned about modifying HEI distributors for increased performance.

redoldsman

If guys want to run points and are happy with them, I think that is great. I really do. I have had the HEI in my 72 Cutlass for 21 years. I bought it out of a junk yard and put a new cap and new wires when I put it in the car. It has not been touched since. I have a Pertronix I put in my boat 16 years ago with a 50,000 volt coil and 8MM wires. It has not been touched. Now that I have said that, they probably won't start tomorrow. I don't think there is any noticeable difference in the performance of them. I just don't understand why this has to turn into such a pissing contest for some people. I do think there may be a person or two on this thread that are alway looking for a pissing contest.

MDchanic

The factory recommends checking and setting points every 12,000 miles or one year.
Nothing wrong with slapping on a dwell meter at a lower mileage, just to be sure, but about once a year sure sounds about right to me.

Don't exaggerate or provide inaccurate information. There are people reading this who don't know what the facts are and are using this information to learn from.



There are two different threads happening here.

One involves reasonable people sharing their experiences so that they and others can make informed decisions about how to set up their cars.
The other involves reasonable people trying to correct inaccurate information posted by one troll.
Normally, one would ignore the troll, but we try to keep it accurate here, so we need to correct blatant errors or misrepresentations.

For whatever it's worth, last week, I replaced the Crane electronic pickup that came with my current engine with a set of points and condenser that had also come with it in a ZipLock bag. I was getting a few odd misses, and it was throwing my tune-up tach off above 3,000 RPM. Running great, no problems, no worse than before (and no better either - Surprise!).

- Eric

oldcutlass

[QUOTE=MudEye;710997][QUOTE=MudEye;715853]These were the OP's questions, before the hijacking.

s i 442

Here is step by step instructions:
1, take out old 45 year old point distributor, break in half throw away so someone else doesn't confuse it with something useable.
2, install new $60 Ebay HEI distributor, hook up switched power wire, new 8MM wires, start car drive away from trash can with old 45 year old broke in half distributor.
3, Go to Olds forum and discuss for over 3 pages on how your car runs better with HEI than points and set back and read other responses that tell you it doesn't.
4, Decide to change back to AM radio and bias ply tires because they are better also.
Moral to the story is, cheese is mold but don't eat mold but do eat cheese.

MDchanic

Ignore list.

First person I ever put on there.

Hope you never need any help.

- Eric

pogo69

that was funny!