oldcutlass

Of course they are going to say that, they sell distributors. The dyno tells the real story. Do you see any real performance gains on the chart? Sorry but the simplest dist. to work on and/or troubleshoot is a points type. All others generally require a lot of steps or a tow if your stranded away from home.

joe_padavano

Kids, kids, kids. Don't make me turn this thread around.

Look, common sense says that the plugs neither know nor care whether the coil voltage comes from opening a set of mechanical contacts or a semicondutor. ASSUMING the coil voltage is the same, the plug wires are the same, the timing and advance curves are the same, etc, etc, it DOESN'T MATTER how the spark voltage is initiated.

Once again, keep in mind that GM (and all automakers) went to electronic distributors in the early 1970s NOT for performance but to meet then-new federal emissions requirements. The higher voltage and larger plug gap were intended to fire lean mixtures reliably. The elimination of points was done only to allow the cars to meet Federal requirements that emissions standards be met after 50,000 miles without a tuneup. There was NO intent to improve performance.

Now, if you are replacing an original point-type distributor, original 20,000 volt coil, and original 7mm plug wires with a new HEI distributor, 50,000 volt coil, and 8mm plug wires, you likely WILL see an improvement, though that will mainly be due to having fresh bushings in the distributor, a new coil, and plug wires that aren't arcing due to age. Of course, if you spend $50 or $100 on the new parts and a few hours installing them, your butt dyno will CERTAINLY register an improvement.

Please note that whole argument assumes apples-to-apples comparisons. There are obviously high-dollar electronic ignition systems out there that will improve performance by multi-firing the spark or tailoring timing on individual cylinders. Simply swapping in an HEI does not get you that.

Oh and as an example of the marketing puffery in the DUI ad quoted above, ALL stand-alone factory HEI distributors (ie, not ones for CCC) only require one wire to connect them. DUI offers nothing special as far as that's concerned.

Personally, I'm lazy, so I use electronic distributors. As I said in my prior post, I just don't expect any performance increase because of it.

Allan R

Ok, I'm going back to the start of this thread. I'd be curious to know how the discussion is affecting your thoughts relative to your car.

Ok, here's my take on this. My car is a 72 Cutlass and is NOT a high performance motor. I did change to an HEI back 6 years ago and I'm kicking myself for doing that. The new HEI simply won't re-curve to match my engines performance no matter how much it's tweaked. So here are my direct comparisons of HEI as it relates to my car:

Starting: HEI vs. Points - No difference at all.
Idle: HEI vs. Points - Points actually runs smoother, and timing runs cooler.
Highway: HEI vs. Points - No difference at all, RPMs are relative to the gears used and transmission type/wear and I don't race the car.
Plug gaps: HEI vs. Points - still gapped at .040. Tried .050 and .060 but the car didn't like that.
Plug wires: Obviously had to change wires to accomodate HEI. Prefer Packard wires for original look.

One downside to the HEI I found out after the fact. The factory Air cleaner will no longer fit and had to be modified. Since I prefer to run stock, the HEI will be coming out and OEM distributor going back in, then I'll sell the HEI for whatever the market will pay.

Hey, you know what? If anyone wants to call me a grandpa because of my preference in how I choose to display and maintain my Olds? I could care less. I was only 16 when my car was new and I like to keep things stock. It reminds me of what was and is a part of my memories.

For those that want to build performance cars and high tech track machines? I have no issues with that either, just I would prefer however if they would respect everyone's differences instead dictating why HEI. I would venture this conversation is also discussed on other GM Brand, Mopar, Ford forums with much the same results.

oldcutlass

Not so much on the Mopar boards as there is a good reliable stock alternative electronic ignition system. You don't see many HEI's on a them.

s i 442

Oh like Magnablows say Flowmasters will slow your car down but their mufflers won't, Ah yea got it
Apparently you have never had a set of points weld the contacts together?
A pick up coil rarely ever goes bad and thats the only reason you would have to be towed home from the results of an HEI distributor.
And yes its an improvement to replace and old wore out point distributor with a brand new HEI that has more volts and a good advance swing. I don't know why anyone in the 21st century would replace a points distributor with another one when a $60 upgrade is available.
Whens the last time someone went to Autozone and tried to explain to the ricer lover behind the counter what a set of points is and do you have or do you have to order them, meanwhile all the HEI parts are right there hanging on the shelf, I work smarter not harder and am successful at it.
There again guys keep your points, hubcaps, single exhaust and AM radio but get out of my way!

66ninetyeightls

So then based on that logic why haven't you upgraded to an aluminium block, overhead cam, fuel injected, coil on plug engine yet?

s i 442

And................... why haven't you? Do they make all this for Oldsmobile?

MDchanic

Okay...

Have you ever used a SUN machine?

How many people here have?

A SUN machine connects to the coil and the distributor output and shows you a waveform on an oscilloscope screen representing the voltage at each spark plug in each cylinder.
By reading the waveforms, you can diagnose problems.

Now, here's the thing: The voltage you see on the SUN machine is not the maximum voltage that the coil is rated for.

It isn't? Why not?

You don't see the spark plug voltage rising to the maximum rated voltage of the stock 20-30,000 volt coil because the voltage never, or almost never gets that high in actual use.

Voltage in an electrical system can be understood as being very analogous to pressure in a water system: Voltage is the force (it is also called Electromotive Force) that moves the electrons through the system.

If you have a water pump that is capable of putting out 50 psi, but you have a free-flowing pipe of a certain size, pressure at the pump will never rise to 50 psi, because it is constantly bled off by the open pipe.

Similarly, a certain specific voltage is required to make a spark jump a specific gap under specific heat, pressure, and atmospheric circumstances. In a stock motor, no matter what you do, you will not create a situation in which more than about 20,000 volts is required to initiate a spark.

Therefore, no matter what the maximum output of your coil is, your coil will never make that much voltage in actual use, and the fact that the coil can produce it will be absolutely irrelevant (Sort of like having a Lamborghini on the BQE at rush hour - the car may be able to go 200mph, but, baby, you're going 5mph whether you like it or not).

As Joe has pointed out numerous times, this additional voltage was designed into the HEI so that if you completely neglected your engine, it would still fire, even though your plugs had worn to a huge gap, and your mixture was way off.
In a well-maintained engine (which all of us naturally have ), the extra capacity is completely wasted.



So now we have:

• Zero performance reasons to switch to HEI,
• A minor maintenance advantage for HEI,
• Specific testimony from actual users that HEI did not improve their performance, and a Side-by-side test that demonstrated no improvement in performance in a stock engine,
• The need to modify both your electrical system and your air cleaner to be able to use HEI,
• The need to recurve your new HEI distributor in an attempt to recreate the correct advance curve of your original distributor,
• Stated æsthetic advantages of HEI over points in that the coil can be removed, and the thick HEI wires may look cooler.

I would say that the pro-HEI argument has been roundly refuted, but, of course, I really don't care what kind of ignition system anyone other than me uses, so go ahead and do whatever you want.

The OP, though, asked the question, and it appears he has gotten an answer.

- Eric

pogo69

The aurora can am engine comes pretty close

dmullin

Point type ignitions with quality parts are reliable when maintenance is performed on schedule. With the added benefit of originality. That being said, Hei ignition with a quality module is reliable at least until the pickup coil wires break from vacuum advance rotation. And there is no maintenance aside from the cap and rotor etc. With a strong enough spring a point type distributor can rev freely with even more frequent maintenance. I run an hei but it doesn't make my engine any better. I think Joe said the secondary doesn't care if its contacts or transistor switching the current. Performance claims from Ignition systems are just plain marketing. Reduced emissions and the ability to run a lean burn system are not just claims.

TripDeuces

Dr. Jacobs of Jacobs Electronics fame wrote a book that covers all of this in detail if you could find one to read. In it he debunks many of the so called performance myths that surround ignitions systems. It's a great read.
Much of what some have said here say the same thing.
I just like the newer systems for their simplicity and ease of maintenance. There is no performance increase.

SI442, as far as your comment about HEI in cap coils vs oil filled ones you obviously haven't witnessed an HEI coil arc weld it's way through the cap via the carbon button to the rotor. There's a reason GM took the coils off the cap for a reason. It's not the end all and be all of performance like you think.

I'm old school for the most part. I like my carbs, 7mm wires, points and many other 'old school' stuff but I can also appreciate newer stuff as long as it's not over engineered like much that I see. Old guys rule!

s i 442

MDchanic

Just to flesh out your rhetorical question:

I have!

My daily drivers are BMWs, with aluminum heads, dual overhead cams, fuel injection, variable length intake tracts, and, on the M54, independently variable intake and exhaust valve timing.

As I have said before, in spite of some very nice engine work done by some great folks both on this board and elsewhere, the half-century-old technology that we all enjoy driving around pretty much adds up to being nothing more than glorified tractor engines.

If I really want to go fast, I'll do it in a car that's designed to do it quietly and comfortably.
The fun of driving in the Olds is not in going fast (though it certainly will do that if I want it to), but the experience of driving it, itself. For that reason, I'll stick to being a Luddite and using hubcaps on my Olds.

- Eric

MDchanic

Other than your subjective impression, having replaced a worn stock unit with a new HEI unit (worn vs new being the operative factors), you have not made a convincing case for any performance increase.


So we both agree that it is minor.


And the side-by-side objective comparison means nothing...
Okay.


Why is it a plus? What harm does it do? What works better without it?


Okay. You got lucky. And many others may have, as well.
Not everyone does, though, so the buyer is flipping a coin as to whether it will work well immediately, or whether he'll need to mess with it.
Not a big deal for me, as I routinely mess with things like that, but definitely a big deal for some.


Okay, let's go through this again.
Since the voltage will never get near 50,000v in a properly maintained stock application, why does this matter?
Further, can you please explain how the ability to produce 50,000 volts (though that ability is not actually used) will lead to "better combustion"?


I dunno. Cave fine with me. Me like cave. Woman say should move to cave and leave her alone.

- Eric

s i 442

pogo69

I will call your hei distributor and raise you one duel point distributor

garys 68&72

s I 442, I may be the most unbiased opinion here. I have a 72 with an LS conversion, my boat was converted from dual points distributors on 427 ford FE motors to DUI HEI distributors.
On stock motors, very little performance is gained with upgraded ignition. 7 vs 8 mm? 30kV vs 50kV....have you even measured firing voltage? I have, if you need 50kV on a stock motor, you have a big problem.
The upgrade is wonderful on maintenance. The DUIs on my boat motors have not been touched in 10 years. I wish I could say the same on the AFBs. But not willing to spend the $$$ on efi.
Hi performance stuff, ok. But this kinda reminds me of the guy who asks how many hp an MSD will get him on a mid 80s low compression motor.

MDchanic

Invalid analogy.

The analogy is to having a certain amount of power and never being able to use it, not to having a certain amount of power and choosing not to use it.

Think of having an air compressor that can make 500psi, but your air tools and hoses can only use 100psi. Maybe you can get away with 120psi, but if you get much higher, you'll wreck them. And the fact is that a compressor that makes 125psi might be better suited to your needs. Sure, you could go out and spend crazy money buying the type of high-performance tools they use with high-pressure air on Navy ships, but unless you do, your 500psi air compressor serves no real purpose, other than giving you the happy knowledge that it makes more pressure than you will ever be able to use.

Alternatively, you could spend less money, buy a compressor that makes pressure in the range that you need - say 125psi, or even 200psi, and just let it do its job.

Whatever. I really don't care what anyone else does, I was just trying to answer the OP's question with accurate, objective information, and I think we have done that.

- Eric

s i 442

Your right, for $60 for a new HEI distributar is the best deal.

1970-W30

As the old saying goes, You can lead a horse to water but........

oldcutlass

66ninetyeightls

I never made the claim regarding upgrades you did!

Based on what you have said previously in this thread there is no merit to keeping things original if there is a performance gain to be had. So based on that there is no logical reason why you are still running an Oldsmobile engine!

I am definitely not one to say things should remain stock and in that area I agree with you. What I don’t agree with is being disrespectful (“Its OK guys you just keep driving grandma and grandpa George and Martha to the "old country buffet" in your stocker”) towards people that disagree with your point of view. This is supposed to be a forum for adults and as such we should be able to discuss differing points of view accordingly.

pogo69

i agree with you mostly 66 but you have to have a thicker skin than that to be offended by the grandma grandpa comment...and yes adults dont always have to act like they are in church

70cutty

To sum everything up, running HEI no real gains unless you are revving above 4500-5000 rpm's and drive your car 1/4 mile at the time.
If you want maintenance free distributor and have money to spend buy a HEI, just don't buy the $60 one on ebay cause it's $60 piece of crap, buy a quality unit from MSD, Mallory or such,

or you can just stick with the original distributor which requires a little maintenance every now and than, but will run just as good for your basic needs.

Personally, I have MSD on all my cars.

Edit: I should also add that engines in my cars are far from stock.

Koda

It's a sign of maturity, both intellectual and emotional, to understand and accept others' points of view when they conflict with your own. Some people can do that. Sometimes people require repeated emphasis of the salient facts until they understand. Sometimes they refuse to accept fact, either through stupidity or obstinacy, and you have to write them off.

I think it's been quite clearly stated that the production points system is satisfactory for stock systems, and requires such little maintenance that it is satisfactory from that requirement as well. It has also been quite clearly stated that adding a HEI system will show no real performance benefit to a stock system and that that discretionary money spent on it would have been better spent on upgrades that would actually help.

So much for the engineering. Gentlemen, what we have here is a psychological problem, not an engineering one. We have someone who, out of the best intentions, put an upgraded system on his car that, unfortunately, didn't result in any measurable improvement in performance. Now, since he got into the losing side of the discussion, it is an insult to his manhood if he admits to spending money on something unnecessary. So, all the reasoning laid out here falls on deaf ears, since he doesn't want to hear it, and people are getting upset.

I think we can close by saying that there is nothing wrong with putting an HEI system on your vehicle, no matter what its stock condition is, and it's your money, and it's your car. There's also nothing wrong with staying with points for a stock setup, and it's our money, and our cars. Let it be.

MDchanic

All very true.

- Eric

s i 442

See this is how it starts, by saying what I buy is crap!
Maybe its the moron who installs it and can't make it run right?
I have bought several of these $60 distributors and they all have ran just fine so I say for $60 you can get a working distributar but takes someone else a $300 distributor to get their car to run right, who is smarter and richer at the end of the day?

70cutty

Wow...damn man why are you wound up so tight?? To each is his own.
I was referring to the OP, I would never advise anybody to buy one of these $60 units because you get what you pay for. Are you seriously saying that they are all equal in quality??
You may have good luck with them, many others haven't. When something goes wrong with my MSD I send it back to them and it's fixed for free. Because they stand behind their product.
Where are you gonna send yours when something goes wrong?

brown7373

A hotter spark and more volts only increases horsepower if the stock ignition isn't hot enough to ignite the fuel charge efficiently enough. During the factory horsepower wars of the 60s and early 70s, do you think the manufacturers left all that extra horsepower on the table, because they wouldn't provide a hotter spark?


All those mods are great for a modified engine where a points or HEI won't provide enough to properly ignite the mixture. But on a stock or relatively stock engine, it's like the silly stainless mufflers sticking out the back of today's rice burners.

s i 442

Send it off to get fixed? HA HA HA, I'll just run to Autozone and pick up a part and be backing running in a 1/2 hour. There is only about 4 parts to an HEI. And why wouldn't I tell people to buy a $60 HEI when I have had good luck with them, have you bought one and couldn't figure it out or what???

70cutty

No, I just run MSD. I don't believe in chinesium parts.

s i 442

Thats cool, as a matter of fact I picked up a PVC valve and upper and lower radiator hose that said "made in USA".
But otherwise I don't care where its made as long as I like the product and it saves me money.

jag1886

[QUOTE=MudEye;710997]The first ignition upgrade I did was to add a Pertronix and one of there coils to the old 330 in my 65, it made a improvement in overall engine performance, it idled perfect and there was no missing anywhere in the RPM range, points IMHO are a PITA I don't need, they are expensive these days, good ones are hard to find and you still have to readjust them regularly to keep the dwell properly set.

Allan R

Glad to hear it works for you and you noticed an improvement. Yes points need adjustment, but they're just fine for me. Safe to say we're both happy with our decisions.

Bernhard

Points work well so does the HEI.
I'm building a old school car so it will have points,
If I had a race car I would go with a Modern HEI from Mallory or MSD, they are plug and play systems with lots of features all designed to work together

steve442

I have this in my original distributor, along with a adjustable vacuum advance.
Pertronix 71181 - Pertronix Ignitor III Kits,
Easy to install and love the rev limiter. And it looks original.

Fun71

Agreed. On my '70 Supreme with a mildly modified 350 I used quality points, condenser, cap, rotor, coil, and wires and it was good for 5800 RPM. I swapped to an HEI that a friend gave me, installed performance cap, rotor, coil, wires, and recurved it, and saw no difference in performance vs. the points distributor.

MudEye

[QUOTE=Allan R;711150]Ok, I'm going back to the start of this thread. I'd be curious to know how the discussion is affecting your thoughts relative to your car.

Yes Allen haven't logged in for awhile. Spent the last 3 weeks ( spare time from work ) replacing the whole front end on my 67 ( front end kit ).

Has been enlightening. Car runs and idles fine but skips a bit. Have never adjusted the points ( 3 years ) Always looking for better performance and that's why I opened the discussion. Since no giant leap of performance is to be gained on my stock engine,I'll stick with points for now. Quality points seems to be the next move then. Someone here said it's the way you adjust the cheap points while another said to buy only quality points.



Starting: HEI vs. Points - No difference at all.
Idle: HEI vs. Points - Points actually runs smoother, and timing runs cooler.
Highway: HEI vs. Points - No difference at all, RPMs are relative to the gears used and transmission type/wear and I don't race the car.
Plug gaps: HEI vs. Points - still gapped at .040. Tried .050 and .060 but the car didn't like that.
Plug wires: Obviously had to change wires to accomodate HEI. Prefer Packard wires for original look.

Octania

UHV
Use the UHV system, in between points and HEI

Finally a rebuild and modernization for the UHV voodoo box, $1000:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171357935739...witem=&vxp=mtr

And the distributor is dirt cheap!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/68-Oldsmobil...f70184&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/68-Oldsmobil...f70184&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1960-S-OLDSM...f47a67&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-196...af626d&vxp=mtr

Allan R

Chris, you're a riot!