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I doubt that most of us would argue that disk brakes are better than drum brakes. However they are not necessary on a lot of these old cars that are only driven a few thousand miles a year if that much. There is no way I would consider hacking up my 54 Olds to put disk brakes on it. I have had the treadlevac rebuilt by one of the best in the business, have radial tires and it works fine for me. I use a lot of caution when I drive the car. There is no need for sarcasm on this thread.
Last edited by redoldsman; March 18th, 2020 at 07:15 AM.
I see no one saying that drum brakes are better than disc. What I and other knuckle draggers are saying is properly maintained and functional drum brakes are still more than adequate for use today and don't see a real reason to change them.
Sadly, there are a few people on this thread arguing just that. They claim drums are better than disc brakes.
I can't find one post from this thread where someone claimed drums are better than discs.
What others and I HAVE said is that many disc conversions are performed incorrectly by people who are clueless and thus end up performing worse than the stock drums did when properly maintained. I can cite dozens of threads where people are complaining about their new four wheel disc setup that doesn't stop as well as the old drums. That does NOT say that drums are better. It says that in improperly done conversion (and there are a LOT of those) can be worse.
Sadly, there are a few people on this thread arguing just that. They claim drums are better than disc brakes. Go back and read some of the posts.
It's like arguing with flat earthers. They are set in their ways and facts, science, engineering & logic will never win with them.
You are twisting what is being said to support your lack of "fact, engineering & logic" in a discussion of drums vs disks. Some here are just pointing that out.. No one is disputing modern autos have an overall advantage in stopping power. Your previously stated comparisons imply that stopping advantage was due to switch to disk brakes alone.
It hasn't even been mentioned here yet, but ABS is likely the most significant improvement in braking technology in recent history. Without it, there is not much difference in the skid pad length of a car with tires locked up by drum or disk brakes.
It is true that ABS reacts faster than any human, but it's only a huge advantage when the driver has no idea of vehicle dynamics and uses the brake pedal as a switch. A competent driver will greatly reduce the advantages of ABS.
So a properly designed and sized disk brake system remains a far bigger advantage than ABS.
It is true that ABS reacts faster than any human, but it's only a huge advantage when the driver has no idea of vehicle dynamics and uses the brake pedal as a switch. A competent driver will greatly reduce the advantages of ABS.
So a properly designed and sized disk brake system remains a far bigger advantage than ABS.
Im not convince a competent driver will reduce the advantages of ABS. A competent driver will firmly apply the brakes, and let the advantages of computers and sensors modulate the brakes within a hair of lockup.
The only environment I know of that ABS is a disadvantage is rock crawling. Those guys want the wheels to lockup, and making the pile of rocks that collect in front of the tires work to slow the truck. The rock crawling guys will pull the ABS fuse, or unplug something to disable it. Granted, rock crawlers are a very small minority compared to the needs of everyday drivers.
I agree with all that ,the biggest downfall of the drum brake is heat build up. But you have the drums drilled by a professional to release the heat, they will stop as good as a disc brake
Originally Posted by OLDSter Ralph
I have never heard of drilling the drums. Where are the holes drilled ?
Neither have I Ralph, but lo and behold griffey57 is on his game !
Glad I read both your comments, had I not and in-turn not googled it I would never have known. Been around car guys going on 40 years and never heard of this till now.
I agree 100% that discs are superior to drums, but am I going to change my Cutlass over? No ! I don't drive in conditions that I need to worry about fade and without Abs I doubt it would stop much quicker with discs. I accept that my 65 isn't as safe as a modern car and drive accordingly.
Glad I read both your comments, had I not and in-turn not googled it I would never have known. Been around car guys going on 40 years and never heard of this till now.
Interesting. I have seen brake discs drilled or slotted, but not drums. It won't do much for cooling. I think I have seen a "cooling scoop" on the outside of a backing plate to circulate air.
Getting the brake linings/drums hot is when they start to fade. I would like to find ceramic material to reline brake shoes. Brake technology has gone basically from "organic" (asbestos) to semi-metallic to ceramic. Each new material has reduced "brake fade".
Am I the only person who does engine braking when driving a car? Didn't have a problem with overheating drums on either the 65 Mustang going over Monarch (and driving around Powderhorn and up 9 mile) or the 66 Olds going over Eisenhower (and driving between Delta and Montrose.) Didn't even downshift in the Olds, just let the engine do the work.
Disc brakes are great, safer, and simple to maintain but drums still work if maintained. Unless you are buying high end cars some of the low end cars still have drum rears (I'm looking at you ford focus.) I'll admit I've never gone up Pike's (keep meaning to but don't get back home very often) but even then I'd be using the brakes as little as possible. Little known fact that even disc brakes can have a problem with overheating in the mountains if you ride them constantly. As a few others have said it's all about knowing how your vehicle performs and not driving like a loon. If you ride someone's bumper in a classic car you are asking for a wreck just like cutting off a big rig and slamming on your brakes. Keep an eye on the road and the other drivers around you and always have a plan of escape.
To quote Haynes: (https://haynes.com/en-us/tips-tutori...rs-drum-brakes)
"
Drum brake advantages
Brake shoes today are still being used. Here are some advantages that drum brakes have over disc brakes:
Drum brakes can provide more braking force than an equal diameter disc brake.
Drum brakes last longer because drum brakes have increased friction contact area than a disc.
Drum brakes are cheaper to manufacture than disc brakes.
Rear drum brakes generate lower heat.
Drum brakes have a built-in self energizing effect that requires less input force (such as hydraulic pressure
Wheel cylinders are simpler to recondition than with disc brake calipers.
Brake shoes can be remanufactured for future use.
Drums have slightly lower frequency of maintenance due to better corrosion resistance.
Drum brake disadvantages
Excessive heating can happen due to heavy braking, which then can cause the drum to distort, and thus cause vibration under braking.
Under hard braking, the diameter of the drum increases slightly due to thermal expansion, the driver must press the brake pedal farther.
Brake shoes can overheat to the point where they become glazed.
Grab is the opposite of fade: when the pad friction goes up, the self-assisting nature of the brakes causes application force to go up. If the pad friction is enough, the brake will stay engaged due to self-application, even when the external application force is released.
Another disadvantage of drum brakes is their relative complexity.
Maintenance of drum brakes is more time-consuming, compared to disc brakes.
Now all of that being said the disk version does have the better heat dissipation and ease of maintenance at the cost of needing to be maintained slightly more.
It is pretty easy to avoid hitting the car in front of you if you stay back and keep your eyes open. Using the engine in mountain driving will keep both drums and discs from overheating. Anybody have a close call with wildlife? Abs will allow you to brake much better in a panic or limited traction environment but most importantly it allows one advantage that is priceless in bad situations. You can STEER ! I have converted from my beliefs of the adequacies of drums for front brakes when I realized that most safety equipment is designed to protect you better from the scenarios that you didn’t expect as well as the ones you can avoid on your own.
I always refer to a conversation I had with a helmet manufacturer’s rep. He commented that he could “create the perfect helmet that will save your life, just tell me what type of accident you will be having” .
It is pretty easy to avoid hitting the car in front of you if you stay back and keep your eyes open. Using the engine in mountain driving will keep both drums and discs from overheating. Anybody have a close call with wildlife? Abs will allow you to brake much better in a panic or limited traction environment but most importantly it allows one advantage that is priceless in bad situations. You can STEER ! I have converted from my beliefs of the adequacies of drums for front brakes when I realized that most safety equipment is designed to protect you better from the scenarios that you didn’t expect as well as the ones you can avoid on your own.
I always refer to a conversation I had with a helmet manufacturer’s rep. He commented that he could “create the perfect helmet that will save your life, just tell me what type of accident you will be having” .
ABS is what makes a good portion of the difference really. Since you can control the car while trying to slow down better you have more opportunity to avoid things like that deer that just had to jump in front of you. Though it's not common you can have ABS drum brakes though typically ABS has been mostly paired with disc.
Last edited by Aragorn; March 19th, 2020 at 10:06 AM.
A little bit of an older thread, but an interesting one.
Just wanted to throw in my experience with ABS having spent my whole life in a place that gets some very extreme winters. For me cars with ABS I notice little to no difference on dry or even wet conditions. I guess growing up with cars that mostly didn't have it you just learn where the traction threshold is and lean on it (under emergency situations obviously, lol). If wheels lock and you need to steer, just ease up enough to let the wheels roll. Working the brakes seems to be somewhat of a lost art really. I think the biggest thing a lot of people lack is an ability to stay calm and think under emergency situations. Even with ABS in emergencies it seems like a lot of people just panic and slam the breaks on hoping for the best. Even if there was somewhere to steer to avoid an accident people lack the skill to do it.
Now, in winter I actually hate ABS. Perhaps that is because most cars I have had for winter are mid 90's to mid 2000's cars and the ABS systems maybe were not very good, but ABS actually kills the braking distance. I even had a car where it stated that right on the sun visor. It basically said that you are sacrificing braking distance for the ability to somewhat steer under hard braking. I personally would rather not mix steering systems with braking systems. I am fine in emergencies to modulate my brakes as needed to get the best stopping distance and control my steering as needed. As mentioned above, if what a lot of people do is just hammer the brakes and hope for the best, isn't the shortest braking distance what is most important anyway?
Again, having spent a LOT of time on ice and snow in a lot of different types of cars, it is very frustrating when I am slowly rolling up to a stop sign and the car is slowing down just fine, then ABS comes on and it is like taking your foot off the brake. It actually feels like you picked up speed. Eventually it stops but not before adding distance to the stop. I realize this means the wheels were starting to lock up, but I would rather deal with that and actually stop sooner rather than gain the ability to steer when I don't need to and increase the distance.
Just my experiences. As with everyone above, disc brakes are for sure overall better, drum brakes if maintained for normal driving conditions are just fine, and in my opinion, I hate ABS, lol. Perhaps newer cars have advanced the feature to where my issues listed above are eliminated or reduced, but until I feel one of those I prefer not to have it in winter at least. Dry or wet conditions I can take it or leave, but hate it in the snow and ice.
I have owned cars with drums all around and disc drum or disc all around. The only time i ever got in trouble with any of them is when i wasn't paying attention to changing traffic conditions. You guys can paint this fence any color you want but good defensive driving is always the key to a safe driving experience. Those on here with commercial driving licenses know what I'm talking about.
Completely agree. Easiest way to stay out of braking trouble is to stay off the bumper of the car in front of you. Maybe that's why outside of winter driving any combo of brake setups like you mention have always seemed fine to me. I cant control what others do that may cause an emergency situation for me, but I can avoid putting myself in one.
There is no disputing that disc brakes are far superior to drums, especially when it comes to brake fade. Drums begin to fail and fail quickly once they are heated up, as they cannot dissipate the heat quick enough like disc brakes can. A front disc/rear drum setup is usually adequate for most vehicles, since 70-80% of the braking is done by the fronts.
Also no disputing that modern vehicles braking systems are vastly superior than the systems from the 50's - 70's. A bad driver is a bad driver, no matter if it was 1970 or today in 2020. Plenty of people ended up dead back in the 1950-1970's because they could not stop the vehicle quick enough due to drum brakes. Having disc brakes in front would have saved lives, no doubt. In braking, 60-0 stopping distances, can mean the difference between life and death. Plus now with 4 or 6 piston calipers, the clamping and stopping power is enhanced even more so. Add carbon ceramic rotors which do a phenomenal job of not heating up, stopping power is top notch.
A modern Corvette can stop 60-0 in about 90 feet.
A modern front disc vehicle can stop 60-0 in about 140 feet.
An older model drum brake vehicle will take 225-250 feet to stop from 60-0.
Those feet make the difference between stopping and driving away or being involved in a car accident and ending up hurt or dead.
Too true, all very valid points. I had a 72 cutlass supreme that came with drums all around, very scary once they were used 2-3 times. The fourth time was a nail biter. I converted to a factory correct disc setup in front and it made the drive enjoyable again.
Front discs for sure.
It's not just "disc vs. drum". It's also about the size--diameter (and width).
Used to be that folks would convert "A-bodies" to front disc brakes using S-10 based kits. S-10s had 10-inch rotors, A-body OEM rotors were 11 inches, and they were still undersized--should have been 13 or 14 inch rotors, but that would have meant not using the cheapest, crappiest 14 or 15 inch tires and wheels.
Front brakes on wrong-wheel-drive vehicles may do "70%" of the braking, but that's not true for RWD vehicles with more-reasonable weight distribution. Clamp your rubber rear brake hose so fluid can't get through, take the car for a drive. It's really horrible especially on slick pavement/snow/ice. Rear brakes on RWD vehicles need to be in great condition, just like the fronts.
If you think that driving skills have atrophied with the advent of wide-spread ABS, consider what's going to happen if the nutjobs really do get autonomous vehicles approved for general sale. We'd be a doomed society. "Lane Avoidance", "Active braking", "Adaptive Cruise" are all bad enough on their own. They're deliberately building cars for MORONS.
Last edited by Schurkey; October 18th, 2020 at 10:01 PM.
March 17th, 2020, 07:40 AM
No one is disputing modern autos have an overall advantage in stopping power. Your previously stated comparisons imply that stopping advantage was due to switch to disk brakes alone.
