griffey57

I go to my local donut shop every Saturday with my 57 olds and I get tired of being asked why I still run drum brakes all around. I tell them because they work great because everything is new or rebuilt and the disc brake conversion is Not a complete kit for oldsmobiles and too many modifications. On top of that the cost is way much and I can't use my stock wheels. But I don't argue that disc brakes are better, but my drum brakes have always been maintained and work very well. My car stops beautifully. Look around all these knuckle heads with their new cars keep crashing so disc brakes aren't helping them either, like drum brakes give your self enough time to slow. Happy oldsmobiling to all!!

oldcutlass

I still have well maintained drum brakes al around on my car. They stop very well.

don71

Drum brakes work and they are proven. Peoples perception of how to use them has changed. Disc brakes offer a few benefits and stopping in a shorter distance might be one of them. Still doesn't replace skills on how to drive properly and safely, like don't drive like an idiot in the first place.

They are not stylish and thus not cool any more when compared to those shiny slotted discs..with the painted calipers.

69CSHC

Drove a Olds that was drum all around in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. Heavy footed youth and all and the car stopped well. As long as you fully respect and understand its limitations your set. So wish my 69 was still factory drum all around, so much so that if and when I swap the rear end she will revert back to drum at least on rear.

pettrix

Many GM "A" body cars had factory disc brakes in front and drums in the back. About 70%-80% of the braking is done by the fronts.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-technolo...m-vs-disc.html

There is no disputing that disc brakes are far superior to drums, especially when it comes to brake fade. Drums begin to fail and fail quickly once they are heated up, as they cannot dissipate the heat quick enough like disc brakes can. A front disc/rear drum setup is usually adequate for most vehicles, since 70-80% of the braking is done by the fronts.

Also no disputing that modern vehicles braking systems are vastly superior than the systems from the 50's - 70's. A bad driver is a bad driver, no matter if it was 1970 or today in 2020. Plenty of people ended up dead back in the 1950-1970's because they could not stop the vehicle quick enough due to drum brakes. Having disc brakes in front would have saved lives, no doubt. In braking, 60-0 stopping distances, can mean the difference between life and death. Plus now with 4 or 6 piston calipers, the clamping and stopping power is enhanced even more so. Add carbon ceramic rotors which do a phenomenal job of not heating up, stopping power is top notch.

A modern Corvette can stop 60-0 in about 90 feet.
A modern front disc vehicle can stop 60-0 in about 140 feet.
An older model drum brake vehicle will take 225-250 feet to stop from 60-0.

Those feet make the difference between stopping and driving away or being involved in a car accident and ending up hurt or dead.

Greg Rogers

I have factory discs on my 71 Cutlass but I converted a 65 Coronet and a 56 F100 to discs. I think that discs are better but drums are fine as long as maintained. It was easy to convert both those off topic vehicles so I did it. I also had another 65 Coronet 4door that I kept the factory drums on it and they were fine - drove that one as a summer driver for years. I guess it depends on what you have and what is available... If it's easy to convert then I would (did) but if not available I would run the drums.

joe_padavano

Given the number of questions we get here and on other forums from people who can't get their disc brake conversions to stop correctly, I once again have to point out that a properly maintained factory combination will nearly always work better than an aftermarket conversion. Few people understand the engineering behind how their car works, they just follow the herd after reading (or now, watching) some article that was sponsored by a manufacturer of aftermarket parts. Personally, I have the original manual four wheel drums on my 62 F85. The one change I made was swapping to a dual circuit master cylinder. When I did that, I also changed the M/C bore from the original 1" to 7/8". The difference in brake performance is noticeable. Pedal travel is not excessive and the car stops as if it had power brakes. This is all about designing the hydraulic system to maximize wheel cylinder pressure for a given pedal pressure.

jaunty75

Two choices here:

1. Start going to a different donut shop.

2. Lie, and tell them the car has front disks. How would anyone know otherewise? It's not like you can see the brakes through the wheel, or can you? If you can, then see #1 above.

redoldsman

I still have the drum brakes all around on my 54. The have been converted to power and the treadlevac has been rebuilt. I have had no close calls with them but I use caution. I do wish I could put a split master cylinder on it but no way to do that with the treadlevac.

Toocool

When I bought my 67 Vista Cruiser a few years ago it had the original 4 wheel drum brakes that were so bad they barely worked. One of the first things I did to the car was to completely rebuild the brake system including having all 4 drums turned and replacing all 4 wheel cylinders. The car stopped so much better but when planning our trip across the country including a trip up Pikes Peak I decided discs might be better, I was right. The car stops so much better with the disc brakes. there were a few times in LA traffic that I don't think the drums would have saved my front end.

pettrix

Wise choice to go with disc brakes. When driving on mountain grades, drum brakes can turn into a nightmarish disaster. Once drum brakes get hot (which they would on a mountain grade decline), they are pretty much useless. Drum brakes can actually catch on fire on mountain grade descents.

oldcutlass

Wow, how did we ever survive our youth...?

pettrix

Sadly, many did not survive. Over 55,000 people died in 1970 due to automobile car accidents in the USA. That was 26 fatalities per 100,000 people with 205 million people.

Fast forward to 2018 and it's at 11 fatalities per 100,000 people with 327 million people. That means fatal car wrecks has been reduced by 50%, even with more people driving and more vehicles on the roadways.

There is no disputing the fact that modern disc brakes save lives and modern vehicles are way more safer than those of the 50's-70's.

jaunty75

I would be careful here. As you stated later, modern vehicles are much safer than the cars of 1970, but I would say the reduced death rate is a combination of many factors, such as increased rate of seat belt-wearing, shoulder belts, air bags, anti-lock brakes, collapsible steering columns, padded dashes, and many other features that didn't exist back then. As far as brakes go, I would argue that the move to dual brake systems that began in '67 (I think) was a greater contributor to braking safety than the move from front drums to front disks.

The biggest problem with drum brakes is their tendency to fade, but that only happens with heavy use, such as going down a mountain. You can anticipate when that will happen and modify your driving (shift to a lower gear) as much as possible accordingly. For typical, flat road, every day driving, drum brakes, in good repair and properly adjusted, stop cars every bit as well as disk brakes.

Overall, this is why I always pause when people come on here, and you do see it once in a while, saying they want to make, say, their '65 Vista Cruiser their daily driver and tote their family around in it. No. It was OK being used this way back then because that was the extent of technology at the time and was the best we had. But today? A car from that era is good as a collector car and the occasional trip to the ice cream stand with the kids, but, for daily transportation purposes, you want something modern surrounding your loved ones.

Toocool

Good discussion here

Sugar Bear

Well stated Jaunty, The increased safety in multiple facets of modern cars merits thinking twice about using a classic as a DD.

I also agree that properly functioning drum brakes work well but fade under excessive use. If the drum brakes on a car will lock-up the wheels then disc wouldn't do any better, sliding friction is the same between drum, disc or your feet through the floor like Fred Flintstone. Tires, ABS, dual masters, suspension geometry all factor in and most probably more than disc vs. drum.

oldcutlass

I agree with all of the above, however still disagree about using one of these cars as a DD. You must know and stay within the limits of the vehicle your driving. Most accidents can be attributed to the stupidity of the driver or one of the drivers involved. As much as the nanny state will try, no amount of safety equipment will totally do away with this fact.

griffey57

My dad drag raced this car(57olds) for years and never had a problem just know how to drive and be safe

jaunty75

The "nanny state" you're complaining about is the reason the death rate from automobile driving has dropped as much as pettrix cites above. The problem with your argument is that you can be as smart a driver as you want, but you have no control over the stupidity of the OTHER driver, and that's what a modern car does a much better job of protecting you from than a car from 50 years ago.

jaunty75

And how is drag racing similar to street driving? Drag racing is done in a very controlled environment. Street driving, by contrast, is the wild west.

griffey57

Thanks for clearing that up. You seem to have it all figured out. Cars today also have more horse power and stupid drivers to boot and results are still bad, there wasn't as much traffic 60 years ago as there is now

jaunty75

Hey, you're the one who said that your father drag-raced the car and never had a problem. Who the hell cares? How is this even slightly relevant to the discussion of brakes and automobile safety? The answer is, it isn't.

jaunty75

Have you been paying any attention at all? Accident death rates are WAY DOWN compared to 60 years ago despite more drivers and more vehicles and more powerful vehicles on the road today. Yes, drivers are still stupid, and they always will be. But the cars of today do a better job of protecting us from them.

griffey57

I'm not disputing as I said disc brakes are better, I know they are but drum brakes pretty damn good if they are maintained, you want to be a wiseguy about it and that's fine

4+4+2=10

Without rolling weight delta's of these vehicles, or comparative info on tire compounds, this data is worthless. Chassis improvements other than a simple swap over to disk brakes attribute more to improved stopping distances in modern automobiles.

jaunty75

And isn't this EXACTLY what I said above? Go read post #14, because it appears you haven't yet done so.

griffey57

Thanks captain obvious, I'm just my car is good the way it is for me and that's it!! Thanks for showing me the way

jensenracing77

You had a 1 inch bore manual brakes? My 4 speed car and all my parts cars are 7/8 bore manual brakes. My wife's car was a 1 inch bore power brakes. I assume you are talking about the wagon? I wonder if that was the difference?

joe_padavano

Yes, the M/C in the wagon was 1". I have no idea if it was original or a replacement. A lot can happen in half a century.

pettrix

The data is not worthless. Breaking down the categories into vehicle weight, tire compounds, tread depth, etc would be impossible.

The reality is that vehicles of today result in 50%+ less fatalities than they did back in the 50s'-70s. Even though the amount of vehicles on the roadway has almost doubled. I agree that disc brakes alone didn't cause this drop but a combination of disc brakes, better suspensions, crumple zones, etc. contribute to this but being able to stop quickly is a benefit and drum brakes don't do a proper job of stopping quickly, especially in stop and go traffic & grades where drums heat up.

The fact is NO new vehicle manufacturer is putting drum brakes on the front of a new vehicle. Most modern passenger vehicles have 4 wheel disc brakes. Drum brakes on the front wheels of a vehicle is an outdated and potentially dangerous design. One must take the extra precautions to stop when driving such an older drum vehicle.

oldcutlass

I think if you reread what I said you'll realize we agree that the nanny state cannot overcome stupidity.

Except big rig trucks, they are still drum brakes.

Cutlass Fan

There is probably little doubt that discs are superior to drums and they do feel more linear in application. But if they are so bad why do semi trailers and heavy trucks still use drums?
Another great advance in auto safety are the modern radial tires. They increase both handling and stopping performance.

pettrix

I agree on the driver error/stupidity but "nanny controls" on vehicles do prevent or reduce severity of accidents (ABS, frontal collision warning systems, etc.)

New rigs now have disc & drum brake combos. Discs are usually on the steer axle. Disc brakes definitely help rigs on mountain grades.

One also has to realize that rigs also use EXHAUST BRAKES/JAKE BRAKES to help stop.

Tests have shown that disc brakes on a rigs steer axle can shorten stopping distance by 50+ feet. On mountain grades carrying loads, tests have been shown that disc brakes can stop a rig 100's of feet shorter/quicker than an all drum equipped semi. Hundreds of feet can mean the difference between life and death, especially if they strike a passenger vehicle.

griffey57

I agree with all that ,the biggest downfall of the drum brake is heat build up. But you have the drums drilled by a professional to release the heat, they will stop as good as a disc brake

matt69olds

It’s all about friction and surface area. Drum brakes usually have more surface area than discs, unless your comparing modern multi piston calipers. In which case, it’s not a apples to apples comparison.

The biggest disadvantage of drum brakes is heat. Once the drum gets hot, it takes a while to dissipate the heat.

My car had manual drum brakes all around when I bought it back in 1987. I rebuilt the front end, and completely rebuilt the brake system. While the car stopped very well, the only thing I was never able to correct was brake pull. Keep in mind, I’m not talking about hitting the brakes and the car switching lanes, I’m referring to a slight drift to the left or right. I don’t know if maybe the drums were the issue (maybe one was near minimum thickness, while the other had more meat) maybe different brake shoe pad compound, or whatever. It wasn’t that big a deal to me. I did convert to discs around 1994 with parts from a 69 Vista Cruiser.

1of1442

In regards to the big rigs still using drums argument, to achieve comparable friction surface area the disc brake rotor would be much larger than the wheel. I was once on the “ drum brakes work good for me “ bandwagon. After a ride with some one else at the wheel, I realized that everyone’s driving style has changed with the new technology and that car in front of me has 4 wheel disc with antilock and by the time they look up from their phone and panic stop, I will be going through their back window. Still running drums on the back axle though.

joe_padavano

Eric,

I just verified in the 1961 CSM, the 62 supplement, and the parts book that all 61 F85s and all 62s with manual brakes got 1" bore M/Cs. The 62s with power brakes got a 1.125" bore. I don't have info on the 1963 cars.

4+4+2=10

Unless your data can be used to determine how much longer a modern Corvette would need to stop with drum brakes, or how much sooner an old car (like the one driven by the OP) would stop with disk brakes, your data is in fact worthless to this discussion.

Spouting off random comparisons between apples and tomatoes with no source identified lends nothing of value here...

tc

OLDSter Ralph

Disk brakes are better. But so are the tire compounds, wider contact area and brake pad/shoe materials.

Great story. Want to hear a great story about towing a car and coming down out of the hills into Chattanooga, Tennesee with four wheel disc brakes ? I had next to nothing for stopping power.

AND brake materials.

Your examples are not useful. Without breaking down the catagories is what makes it useless for comparison. Drum brakes with ceramic linings would improve the stopping distances, as would "modern" tires. Semi-metallic brake pads and brake lining was developed to reduce brake fade. Now we have ceramic materials that work extremely well when "warmed up, but don't stop as well when "cold". Drums are no more dangerous than the "nut" behind the steering wheel.

You are correct. Tire construction, width and rubber compounds have gotten better.

I have never heard of drilling the drums. Where are the holes drilled ?

You are pretty much correct.

pettrix

Not sure why the new Corvette C8 went with disc brakes and not drums? Clearly GM made a mistake by not installing 4 wheel drum brakes on the new C8 Vette. I guess new C8 owners can take their cars in and have them converted to 4 wheel drums, so they can have better stopping power.