Nilsson

Those cars coming to a Ford dealership near you.

76 Regency

[quote=stevengerard;236760] (except my 1976 Regency never once failed me).quote]

Steve, you are the man!!!

Merry Christmas buddy!

z11375ss

Labor costs get in the way again. When is the UAW going to realise you can't make six figures on an assembly line without bankrupting the company or making it move elsewhere. This disturbs the heck out of me. This plant should have been built here. In the U.S.

Diego

When will GM realize you can't avoid bankruptcy when you sign those kind of deals with the Unions?

As usual, the America-Yes! gang can't see the big picture.

Response to "dougie" soon to come . . . perhaps he should brush up on economics in preparation.

lshlsh2

The other problem is when most of the population makes half of that. They can't afford the car.
Larry

MDchanic

Okay, this discussion is getting b|+chy enough for me to feel I belong here.

My 2¢: I would never buy a Japanese car (or, God forbid, a Korean or Chinese car), and that is out-and-out bigotry on my part, and I admit it, and I am comfortable with it.
When I was growing up, Japanese cars were known to be absolute junk, made out of "compressed rust," and couldn't get out of their own way. I will admit they've improved since then. Now, they're like a Plymouth Valiant - they'll run forever, but you wish they'd just die already because they're so boring to drive.

On the other hand, I have no problem with cars that come over from the East.
I've owned and enjoyed Mercedes, BMW's and Porsches, and they're just great cars, and last forever as well. If a US manufacturer made anything like my 318ti hatchback, or the 911 I used to have, I'd buy one, but they don't, and as far as I can tell, they can't. Yes, they're more expensive, but I would buy a five or ten year old German car over a brand new American car any day.

Also, I harbor no ill will against the Japanese car companies.
They beat us at our own game, fair and square, just like we beat them 65 years ago.
They came in with cars that were small, reliable, cheap, and got good gas mileage, during a fuel shortage, at a time when the US companies had nothing but 4,000 pound, 350cid, 12mpg monsters and the Chevy Vega. If the US companies had been smart, they would have taken the hint, but instead they shaved a few hundred pounds off their biggest, and gave us the Chevette with the 30 year old Iron Duke 4-cyl. Granted, Americans (me included) LIKE big cars, and the Big Three needed to keep making some, but they completely missed the fact that there are lots of other Americans (especially women) who want smaller cars that actually make some sense, and they essentially GAVE that entire market to the Japanese by making rattle-y crapboxes with lousy performance and worse reliability, just as the Meatball Flag was being hoisted high and our honorable adversaries were starting to figure out how to make a good car.
Game, set, and match, as far as I'm concerned. I can't see the US companies recovering from this to be anything like what they once were.
For some interesting insights on this, you may wish to listen to a radio show about the GM / Toyota NUMMI plant in California, and how GM just couldn't get it: Pay Source / Free Source.

- Eric

nonhog

Some good food for thought on this thread.

I find it interesting people are happy with Ford because they did not take a bail out. (which is good)
But people confuse that with they are doing well. They are not.
In fact they do not own the rights to there logo anymore along with almost everything else. All out on loan.

Hear anything on Windstar rear axles breaking? Not much is my guess.
Google Ford Windstar.
Still hear uninformed (or wrongly informed) statement about Toyota sticking gas pedals.
No scientific proof of anything other than driver error. Yep NASA and NHTSA both concure. All been people using the wrong pedal or gas pedal interferance.
The poor SP fellow in the Lexus who died with his family?
The computor has shown he had come to a full stop 3 times while the engine raced. He wore out the brakes and continued on.
Bad/Sad choice.

Oldsmobile, #1 car sales in the eighties. They had it, they lost it.
I think its great to buy American. I did, have and will continue to but I may also buy whatever the heck I please.

I love my Silverado but facts are facts. It is cheesy/cheap in the interior next to a Tundra. The sheetmetal is so thin its pathetic.
I'm still happy with my purchase.
Was very funny how a couple years back a guy in a Dodge(at the time owned by Mercedes) was pointing his finger at the guy in the Toyota.

Loved my 00 Victory motorcycle, with its oil leaks etc. it was a pile next to my old Honda. Still liked the Victory better.
I bought a 2nd Victory after wrecking the 1st. Even with the terrible factory support.

I get the brand/country loyalty but could do w/o the ..........
"Your not patriotic" crap

coltsneckbob

Speaking of sticking accelerator pedals.....While I believe it possible to happen I don't believe the stories about people going down the road for miles on end at 60 mph with such a stuck pedal. I think the majority of these are people trying to get a headline or make a buck. Come on - if ur pedal were to stick you could:

1) put the car in neutral.....the most obvious solution
2) turn off the key - yea you might lose ability to steer but u would stop- plus if you're really thinking u kill the engine then put key in accessorty position
3) put car in a low gear.....yea you will blow the engine or the trans, but you will stop
4) put the car in reverse - dangerous yes, you are sure to blow the trans, but again you will stop

Stepping on the brake might not stop the car. But, initially it should slow it down.....and I would think slow it enough for at least some reasonably skilled driver to have a controlled crash. One could then carefully try to guide the car against a center divider or look for those crash buckets filled with sand.

ent72olds

I've been reading this thread long enough, and figured I couldn't hold back anymore....I drive a Ford F-150 25,000mi a year....had an '04 and turned it in for an '08 which I'm in now. My only complaint is that I can't believe I have to change the oil every 3500 mi and I put a set of brakes in each at around 45,000 miles.....My job depends on my car operating in rough stop and go traffic in Metro NYC and LI! Every car breaks eventually, some sooner than others. Doesn't matter American, Japanese, German, etc. From the start of this thread, the OP was complaining about his Mopar and trannys going bad, then after 3 repairs/replacements, deciding to sell. Obviously, a lemon! My parents once owned an '84 Lincoln LSC....total lemon. Everything broke and it overheated as they brought it to the dealer to trade in on an '88 LSC! That car lasted forever with only replacing an airbag in the suspension after my brother ran over a piece of metal....example one!
My mother in-law bought a Toyota Matrix that she had about 2 years after a laundry list of issues forced her to trade it in....on another Matrix! She still has that with about 80k on it so far with zero problems! That is example two! American or Japanese...same senarios! My Family started buying volvos, and just recently sold their '89 240 with well past 300k on it and still got $1800 for it! They have another Volvo 240 with over 200k on the clock, still going like swiss time! My wife's everyday car is a '92 Volvo 240 with 160k, no major issues, but brake pads, and this summer replaced the a/c comp! My parents also have a '95 Jag XJ6 with over 360k on it! That is not a misprint! Although, on of the valves gave in last week....guess that car doesn't owe them anything either! By the way, my father -in -law has a '99 Toyota camry that so far at about 95k has put 3 power window regulators, an engine(bent a valve), and has had major tranny work! Not to mention that all he does is complain how bargain basement cheap the interior is, the door panel fabric, and every piece of plastic is falling apart.
So it could be Toyota, Ford , Jag whatever! Personally, I will stick with my Fords, as they have served my very well....and I'll keep my wife and kids in the Volvo(just bought a heavily hit one with 10k on it that she'll still be driving 10years from now with 200k on it!).........

OLD SKL 69

I agree with Erik as far as you can get a lemon with whatever manufacturer you decide to buy from. I have been mostly impartial to Chrysler products over the last 10 years, owning a 99 & 02 Intrepid, 05 Magnum, 06 300, and an 08 300C, never had any issues with them. The Magnum I drove for 3 yrs and put over 120k on it, never let me down. We also had an 02 Camry in there because I believed the magazine/automotive press hype that they were the best car out there. Guess what, brake issues, suspension issues, terrible tire slap on expansion joints, even with trying different tires. The Intrepid got knocked for having an el cheap interior in it. Although I did not think it was that great, it was much better than the Camry's in my opinion. Could not wait to get rid of that one. Are all Toyota's like that, obviously no but that was my experience. I would not buy another Camry mostly because I think there butt ugly, not because I think there crappy cars. (I do believe there overrated though) I prefer to "buy American" but that is getting increasingly difficult. i.e. the Ford Fusion is made in Mexico but most Camry's come from Kentucky. As they say in NY "go figure"

Diego

Statistically, which models will be better or worse?

That's what is important. The best car will have a few turkeys along the way.

With the Internet, a consumer has a lot at his/her disposal. If a consumer wants to buy American, he/she can figure out what's best and if it fits his/her needs.

CMitchum

You don't believe that someone could panic and not perform the obvious solution to an on road problem? You really believe that?

If you don't believe a Toyota could have a stuck throttle then I guess a Corvair or an Explorer can't turn over and a Pinto could never catch on fire.

CMitchum

This thread obviously has evoked opinion and emotion. I'm glad to see everyone is being civil to each other even while we disagree. Can't say that happens everywhere, so good job folks.

WMACHINES

I drive a 1994 Cutlass Supreme Sedan. I have currently 257,000 miles on the odometer. I have had to change one trans and one intake gasket. Normal wear and tear such as struts, tie rods and ball joints and one hub bearing and battery. Michigan roads are not the kindest to our cars in the winter months. For the little in maintenance that I have to do, the car still keeps on going. I drive it 80 miles a day to work. Looking forward to the 300,000 mark. I also have a 1998 Silhouette with 253,000 miles on it. Had to do head gasket a 179,000 and again normal wear and tear. I believe the drive train will outlast the body on my van. Going to buy a 03 or 04 Silhouette in the summer. I also have a 97 Yukon, but it is barely broke in. It is our rec vehicle. Only 135,000 on it. Haven't done any work to it yet. I have only owned it for 9 months.
Just my .02 on domestic cars. I live for Oldsmobiles.

regards Mark

TK-65

Ford must be paying guys to push them here because that video is 3.5 years old and they aint here yet.

Diego

This is a joke, right? I'm sorry, but where I'm from, being told I'm less 'Mer-cun than someone else just ain't cool. Plus it's ironic because the free market view I have is practically 100% American.

TK-65

Let this UAW worker clue you in a little. I make 55,000 a year gross. Thats 40 grand bring home. I stand on my feet for 8 hours a day, a do the same task 1000 times a day. I do not post on my computer all day, I do not text people all day, I dont facebook on company time, I dont take cigarette breaks, I work all day buzzer to buzzer.

My wife works in an office setting. Most of the people there make 60 to 75 grand a year. One of her hats is HR, she tells me how much people are on Facebook, how people come and go as they please, how they rush thru their work so they can talk on the phone. She tells me how hard it is to fire people because they may sue. They had to "lay off" a secretary last year instead of firing her because of fear of a lawsuit.

UAW workers slacking off? National outrage. Anyone else slacking off, accepted and celebrated in TV shows like The Office. UAW workers making 20 bucks? OUTRAGE. Guy calling the Jim Rome Show on company time every day trying to get racked? Awesome!

So in a nut shell, I dont make six figures. Would you feel good knowing that that South American plant probably pays workers 15 bucks a day?

Plants in Mexico pay 25 bucks a day, thats 3.12 an hour. Thats a great way to stimulate our economy, build more of these plants here!!!!!

citcapp

I'll add a little to this discussion by taking a different tack. I currently drive a 2003 cad STS, its a great car with 97,000 miles on the clock with no problems. As I never buy new cars, I have been scouting around for my next new used car. What i can't stand is total lack of style and individual design elements between manufactures. Nothing in today's market stands out other then the exotics. Just bland, bland, bland, even the mustange, camaro, challanger do not in my mind stand apart for each other that much. So in the last few days I have decided to make my 48 Olds my daily driver after all I am retiring in two years and it will most likely take that long to finish it. I will now put AC on the list of things to give it the level of comfort I am used to along with power windows, power doors, power trunk, good sound system, and yes the old fashioned pushrod built up 455. Mileage won't be an issue as my wife still has a no name import for those shopping trips. I love to drive and looking forward to this.

A friend of my has a 53 ford panel truck with a big block Chebby and it has been his daily driver for over 30 years. Been all over the US and Canada with that rig. His wife drives a 63 chevy wagon that she would never sell.

Guess I an stuck in the 50's-60's

Whatever your opinion driving should be fun why else did we become car guys in the first place. Well I am rambling now must be a sign of old age, now where did I leave the car keys......................................

Higgins

Free Market? Check the price of an American made car by a U.S. company in any country,Canada excluded, in the world. That is why they have to make Buicks in China for sale there instead of sending them from here. I feel it's ok to buy whatever you want but the playing field should be more level for American made cars.

Diego

You don't understand what a free market is, so how do I respond?

And China has what to do with this? Certainly GM's presence in China is helping them stay afloat.

Higgins

I would never try to insult your intelligence so don't try to insult mine. I have no problem with GM making cars in China for that market, just as GM has made cars in U.k & Germany since the 1920's. I have no problem with others doing the same here, What i have a problem with is the unfair tarrifs imposed on American made cars, and many other products, in such places as Japan & China that make a Chevy cost double what they would otherwise cost. That is not "free market" trade.

Diego

Sorry, but I can't figure out how your initial comment has anything to do with free market economics - the price and tariffs of a car overseas is irrelevant.

Speaking of tariffs, do you remember the tariffs created for cars built overseas? The Japanese found a way around that - build a plant in the United States!

You can bitch and moan all you want about trade, but we're talking about the inherent good of an automobile and its reliability throughout its life. But you want to talk about Japan? Tell me what Japanese person would buy this Corvette?

http://www.chevrolet.co.jp/corvette/interior/

77GCSX

I know that newer cars are more reliable BUT, when and IF something goes your pretty much stuck where you are. Case in point - The serpentine belt. If that breaks then you loose EVERYTHING, water oil electric....On my Cutlass when I had it the alternator belt broke (of course at night on a Sunday) but I was able to limp it to a gas station and get a slightly larger belt to get me home.

All I'd like to do is have an older car (pre computer/electric gizmos) to drive daily. Something that IF a belt were to break or a hose, something I can fix myself instead of needing to HAVE to tow it somewhere JUST to figure out what's wrong (if it's something other than a belt or hose).

jpaulwhite

I agree 100%. Why do you think all taxis/limousines are now mostly Town Cars? Because most of them run well into 300,000 miles with simple oil changes and maybe a spring or 2 for the coils ($10)

I own a limo company and deal with Town Cars all day all night. They are the most reliable and low cost vehicles out there right now (In my opinion) All my family members drive Town Cars now, I won't buy them anything else

coltsneckbob

Well I don't think I would agree with you. First of all true you might limp home with broken alternator belt, but you'd be stuck as any car if ur water pump belt went. Also the serpentine belt is extremely strong. I would argue that it is more reliable then the older types of belts because the manufacturers know it is a single point of catastrophic failure.

There are also some cars today that can still drive even if the serpentine breaks. They do this by switching off cylinders in a cycle.....thus cooling them for a bit and then reactivating.

ent72olds

Amen brother!.......

ent72olds

I look at that a little differently....yes, it obviously must be a profit stream for GM in China, or they wouldn't be selling cars there, nothing wrong with that....but, since China was brought up, you can't blame the Chinese for building products for the US, the US is offering them the work, they need it, therefore they'll take the job! We need to start putting the blame where it belongs! No, not the unions(seems everyone thinks this is the easy answer), but the bean counters and execs that run business in this country! Everything is about "get rich now", forget about building for the future! These "white collar " pigs only care about filling their own pockets! What better way to do it than to farm it out, make big profit on labor, and collect our year end bonuses! I work for a fortune 500 co., and I live this everyday! Unfortunately, I'm not an exec, and everything falls on us to produce! I know we are off of the original topic, but the thread has kind of turned that way! Oh, I am in the auto industry, and have weathered several pay cuts over the last 5 years! No, I'm not in a union!

coltsneckbob

I don't begrudge you making a good liveable salary, but I don't think the whole story is being told. I may be wrong so correct where you think I am, but:

-Most UAW get a gold plated health benefit plan. You would be surprised at the deductibles and out-of-pocket that companies force management with 6 figure (+) salaries must pay. This is a long term cost that affects manufacturing cost.

-I have heard that a UAW retiree (with 30 years) gets something like a 75% pension. Well, most of the 6-figure folks are lucky to get 25% after 30 years. This is a long term cost that affects manufacturing cost.

-Lots of UAW seem to be immune from layoffs - they seem to be furloughed with 95% pay....nice! A six figure person is usually SOL. Another big cost item to the car's bottom line.

Also:
-Most 6-figure folks don't get a 9-5 job. Hours vary but a constant 50+ hours per week is going to be fairly common.

-The 6 figure guy has lots of competitiion - you need to stay way ahead of the pack. This means educating yourself.....on your own time. Reading the latest standards/text/law/regs/etc is a job requirement.

-Most business requires that a worker contribute X times their salary and benefits to revenue. X varies wildly but minimally is usually 3 and can be double digits in some businesses. I have heard that for the auto industry the employee contribution to revenue is at the low end.

Again, I don't want to say you shouldn't make a good decent liveable wage. And BTW I am only comparing 6-figure workers in the $100-$200K per year range......above that and virtually anything seems to go.

GoodOldsGuyDougie

see below

GoodOldsGuyDougie

Sorry if I came off ranting but I'm never PC Correct when it comes to anything taking shots at the USA.. (See Gran Torino with Clint Eastwood for my exact perspective.)


442much-yeap parts of the Camaro are made in Canada and parts in Mexico. Thats another complaint I could rant about for years. I do have some Christmas spirit at the Moment. so I'll save that one for later. (Thank you President Clinton for creating Nafta and letting GM build out of the USA)-

MDchanic

X3.

... and X2 on that one.

Bob, with all due respect, just because the corporate managers are getting screwed (and I do agree that they, and lawyers, and doctors very often are), doesn't mean that the average working stiff should get screwed too.
In my book, that's pretty much the opposite of "fairness."

If some other guy is lucky (or smart) enough to have a good benefits package (and it looks like I'm neither, because projections show, with no exaggeration, that I can never retire), then I say, more power to him.

We should all aspire to his situation, not tear him down for it.

Well, thank you Bill Clinton for signing NAFTA, but thank you GHW Bush for introducing it...

- Eric

coltsneckbob

Eric,

I didn't mean for it to come across like that. What I am saying is that a guy on the line has a fairly good set of packages and it costs. It is far better than I think a lot of foreign manufacturers get (except for perhaps the German companies).

I was also saying that the UAW worker may only get $55K/yr, but in the end they are much more equal to the 6-figure person then they think. In order to get the same retirement income that the UAW worker does the management person has to save more of their income (IOW not spend it when they earn it). I am not saying both parties are equal at retirement.....but between the two professions the UAW is closer to that low level to mid level manager then they realize.

Jetstar 88

Old Mercedes (Mercedii?) are hard to kill. Go with one of those.

MDchanic

I do have to agree with you on that, Bob.

In my own scheme of things, the UAW employee has a fair deal, as does the line worker at Mercedes or BMW. Any working guy (and, remember, you used to be able to raise a family and send the kids to college on a single income) used to be able to get a deal like that. Those corporate management guys, on the other hand, are getting screwed, plain and simple. They shouldn't be getting obscenely rich, but they should have job security and a decent retirement plan in return for their 50 to 100 hours per week.

But, yes, the UAW employee's full "compensation package" is worth considerably more than his annual salary, and the manager's higher salary is deceptive due to modern demands on his time (reducing his "hourly rate" to shockingly low levels) and reductions in his benefits and security.
The difference is that the union employee's basic situation has been roughly the same since the forties or early fifties, but the manager's situation has been silently eroded for years, as the partners and investors claimed more and more of his money as their own.

- Eric

Diego

Unfortunately, you are mistaken that your comments have anything to do with political correctness - it has a lot to do about emotion.

Is that un-PC enough for ya?

Bunser

Darn those Canadian and Mexican parts.[If all parts were produced in the U.S.A. , would that make you happy] [Could you afford the finished product.][Betting many couldn't]

rustyroger

Only a handful of cars are made in the UK now, this is largely a result of years of disinterested workers, out of touch management and lack of investment. When Micheal Edwardes took over at British Leyland not one of his department heads could tell him how much it cost to build a car!.
Our industry relied on customer brand loyalty just as the US automakers have. When Japanese cars started to be imported here in the late '60s/early'70s the motoring press dismissed them as dull to drive junk. They rusted just as fast as domestic & European cars of that era and were not trouble free.
But they did not spend nearly as much time in repair shops while they rusted and the car buying public, who wanted a car that would start on command, not leak onto the driveway and take them where they wanted to go without incident, were happy to forego a dynamic driving experience with their cars and returned to Nissan and Toyota for their next car, often bringing a neighbour as well.
The British maufacturers found no buyers for their troublesome out of date designs and went out of business.
Lets hope the USA doesn't go down the same road, I hope not but unless the Big Three fundamentally change and soon the signs aren't good.

66ninetyeightls

Hes not saying it couldn't happen. He is saying there is ZERO proof that it ever actually did!! Unlike the other vehicles you mentioned.

66ninetyeightls

LOL NAFTA had nothing to do with GM building outside of the US they had already been doing that for decades!!!! NAFTA makes it cheaper for both countries to sell their goods to eachother and since most stuff costs less in the US than Canada more Canadians purchase US made goods rather than those from outside north america cause we don't pay duty on US made goods thus helping the US and Canadian economy.

nonhog

To be clear I think many instances of stuck throttles have happened.
Having been a service writer in the past, as well as working in the shop.
People do stupid things and can't always see the easy way out.
(floor matt)
Thats unfortunetly what I believe and have seen, over and over and over.
Toyota is shortening the gas pedals to help eliminate the risk of floor matt
interferance.
Not that they need to IMO. Remember Explorers, Samuri's and Jeeps all the sudden had issues with tipping over.
Because people don't use there heads. Its a 4X4 slow down around the friggin corner.

Yes some issues are people problems and some are car problems.

Pinto, Corvair and some others were car problems.

Its a good group of people here, thats why it works. Some of the other sites I use are just drama, drama, drama.

Sure it can get a little shakey here but always comes around.