Ice

My parents had a 1991 Olds Cutlass Supreme International, timing chain went out 3x before 200,000 miles!!

I bought a 2001 Ford Focus ZTS, 214,200+ miles and fires up every morning in this zero degree weather knock on wood! I had a power steering pump leak out onto my lower radiator hose so I had to fix that (cost me $54, even tho Ford wanted $784 for it lol). That happened around 175,000 miles. Oh and the EGR valve went, but was covered by a TSB.

louie

DD 1998 toyota corolla. Bought with 40k, now has 180k. Only things replaced are wear items, battery, tires, oil, struts. So far so good. When it dies I'll be getting a 2005 honda civic, 40mpg+ out of the 5 speeds.

marinus_

Aren't they supposed to be changed every 60,000 miles according to the service manual? 3 x 60,000 = 180,000. That sounds about right......

Nilsson

You also have to consider depreciation as well. I sold my 1997 Honda Accord excellent condition with 150,000 miles for 4800.00 firm. Bought the car off lease for 13500.00 (certified used car) and owned it 7 years. This was 3 years ago right before I purchased my 2003 certified used Honda Accord.

What a bargin, and I consider my Honda Accord as American as a Ford or GM product.

Ice

Haha I think you're right!

All I know is I have a 2008 Mustang GT and I hang out with a lot of the GrabberOrange.net guys and one of them has a 2007 GT with over 180,000 miles... Still does burnouts like you wouldn't believe, it's his daily driver, and no problems he's reported to us. Fords done that car right. And I never would have gotten it if they still made Olds (and their 60,000 mile timing chains). But I love my '86 Olds 442 with over 330,000.

Oldsguy

I think there may be 'Lemons' from all manufacturers because I can think of many, many stories and bad experiences about daily drivers without regard to who manufactured them. We have all had our share, for sure.

Ice

To the Honda Accord guy: don't the profits go to a company in another country?

Red Delta

Well, since the American car companies have shareholders (living in who knows which countries) and/or are owned by foreign companies, this statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Look where the vehicle is built and who the people are that are benefiting from it.

Nilsson

Honda and its suppliers employ over 10,000 people in Ohio. Where do Gms profits go? Oh, wait they don't make a profit neither does Chrysler.

Ford is the exception after closing plants and downsizeing and laying off at least half its workforce.

Who would you rather be employed by?

aliensatemybuick

Is there any irony in the fact that this thread (at the time I write this anyway, realizing that the banners rotate) is brought to us by TOYOTATHON?

On EDIT (as of this edit, the sponsor is VW (2010 Jetta TDI)).

Ice

One of these days I'll probably come around. My grandpa was ALL about GM and Uncle Ford. Guess that's influenced me.

TK-65

You might want to check your facts. Honda employs 12,746 directly in Ohio. I highly doubt that their suppliers, who also supply other auto makers, employ 88,340 people in Ohio.

Honda employs 20,063 total for the United States.

Address of their HQ,

13-3 Ichiban-cho,Chiyoda-ku,Tokyo , 102-8414,Japan

TK-65

34% of shareholders are foreign (non Japanese) individuals or institutions.

oldcutlass

Hmmmmm I think all newer cars are POS's only some are bigger POS's than others. Yes the technology has increased longevity over the years. I sell cars for a living and see all manufacturers products come in with 250k miles and beyond for gas motors and well over 500k miles on deisel. Opinions are like... , we all have one.

Give me an old car and $15-20k, I can fix one up drive it a few years and get my money back out of it!!!!

CMitchum

OK, a very interesting thread. I think the problems with that van were either something ELSE wrong causing the trannys to fail or the repair places didn't know what they were doing and blame Chrylser (cuz Chrysler wasn't there).

Owned a 98 Intrepid for 10 years:
ZERO repair work (outside of wwear items like brakes)

Owned a 96 Neon and then a 2004 Neon SRT4 for a combined 4 years:
MAF sensor failed on the 04 and the tranny oil pan gasket on the 96. That's it!

Owned a 1994 Camaro Z28:
NO problems until 2001 when a computer circuit board controlling the dash failed.

My wife's 2002 Honda CRV:
Rotors warped in first year. $2,100 in front suspension work in 2005. No big problems until last year when front calipers froze (rusted) and later the variable timing solenoid got messed up. Big bucks.

I could tell you all kinds of stories of Japanese car failure; if you don't believe it, drive by you local Honda or Toyota dealer and check out the crowded service bays. They ain't all there for oil changes and sched. stuff. Yet people believe that American cars have not closed the quality gap because they had bad experiences in the 80's/90s when the JP cars took over.

I laugh at how slavishly loyal people are to overpriced Hondas and Toyotas. Don't get me started on the fraud of the 80s when they just INVENTED Acura and Lexus and wanted us to believe they were suddenly luxury car experts.

Right now? FORD is making some seriously good cars.

Whew, now I feel better.

Centurion

Daily driver 1989 Buick LeSabre: 216,000 miles

I replaced the factory-installed spark plugs at 160,000 miles and the alternator at 205,000 miles. Other than fluid changes and brake pad replacements, there has literally been nothing else. The car delivers fuel economy of 20+ around town/mixed use and 30+ on the highway. I would have zero concerns about jumping in it today to make a coast-to-coast trip; it's a vastly superior car to the Honda Accord we used to own.

Wife's daily driver 1999 GMC Safari: 160,000 miles

Similarly trouble-free, and I expect to keep it in the "fleet" for years to come.

I had to laugh at the comments about owners of American cars making excuses for them; I see the problem in reverse. The Toyota and Honda drivers I know are spending much more on repairs than I do, but remain slavishly devoted to them.

455man

Wasn't there another recall on toyota just this week? My girlfriend owns a toyota so my ears perk up every time I hear of one of their recalls. Been a bunch of them the last year or so.

oldsguybry

I was brought up with American cars , as a matter of fact I never owned an import nor did my parents...so its really hard for me to say that I want to buy an import , but if you went through what I did , you may change your mind. I have very little money right now and I just cant take the chance with another lemon...My next vehicle will probably be American , cause me and the wife want a 4 x 4 SUV of some sort ....going by what alot of you are saying It seems that is my best bet when it comes to a truck , but If it was a passenger car I would proly buy an import , if that makes any sense....im sure someone here will let me know if it is lol

Nilsson

Extra zero by mistake, also as of June 2010 Honda in Marysville ,OH produced its 10 millionth vehicle.

oldsguybry

also , ive noticed a fair number of people that got more than 200,000 miles on their vehicles here , have vehicles prior to 2000....I always had good luck with them years myself, not the case for me with 2001 vehicles though.

Rocket Richard

Yup. Google whatever car you are looking at before buying.

I had a bad experience with a 2003 Toyota Matrix where the engine got all gummed up. Check out the oil sludge issue for Toyota.

This probably wouldn't be on the JD Powers radar because this was not covered by Toyota under warranty.

Yes, some regular maintenance could have prevented this problem, but it is funny that the oil sludge issue has been a big problem for Toyota. Haven't really heard of this issue for other makes... not that I checked.

I noticed none of you guys mentioned VW's. I used to be a big VW guy, and I found those cars very reliable... never bought anything newer than 1984 though. I have heard the Diesels are known for lasting forever. There were some problems with certain models, but this is common knowledge in the VW community. Man, the parts for those old VW's are pretty cheap and plentiful. Also, I remember working with a 1970 vintage EFI computer on an old air cooled VW... was pretty impressed that VW's design still held up afer 30 plus years.

Those VW's would never be a substitute for a vintage Olds though...

Good luck to you. Sorry to hear your troubles. Definately do some research for the next purchase.

lshlsh2

I left Am. cars for daily drivers when I bought a 2006 Sonata for my wife. I could not find what my wife wanted in ANY american car for any price. My wife wanted a 5-speed mid size sedan. (she now wants 6-speed 2011) The other probablem I had at the time was safty features. Hyundai puts them on all cars. GM only put them on top of the line. I couldn't get them on lower tier models, that still burns me to this day. I couldn't get side airbags unless I got leather int. and the rest of that crap that breaks and makes your life confusing. Will I go back to an American made car in the future? I can see it happening. Hyundai is falling into the same track all car makers do. As they get more popular, they make their cars bigger and more expensive with more junk. After A/C and radio what more do you need?
Larry

442much

My daily drivers...1998 Intrigue, 2001 Pontiac Montana Ext. and a 2001 Aurora. The Intrigue's engine was toasted because previous owner ran it hot when she should have fixed it. GM wouldn't recall because there were too many vehicles with this problem. I bought the car in 2008 for $1000 (was $32,000 in 1998). Put an engine in and runs like a top.

The 2001 Montana I bought in 2002. It started overheading and I argued with the dealer that I wanted it fixed because they knew of the defect and didn't give me a chance to negotiate or walk away. After an hour or so, they agreed and fixed the $1700 problem for free.

The 2001 Aurora I bought that car this year. It had 267,000 kms (160,000 mi.) but I got it for $800. Car was mint inside and out and every things works. Found an engine with 40,000 miles and changed it out. Car runs like new. When I did the engine swap, I also changed the intake manifold gasket because I knew it was only a matter of time. So far, everything is hunky dory.

The foreign cars are OK but I was raised with American cars. My father owned Fords and became a GM man in 63 when he bought his Impala. He never did own an Oldsmobile but really liked my 442. As for me, I've always been GM even though they pissed me off by killing Oldsmobile. I anticipate my next car will be a 2003 Aurora. Then I guess I'll have to make a big decision after that car. Pontiac's? Probably.

mauls

I feel your pain.

My 2010 Dodge challenger had to have its head rebuilt at 300 miles for a bad factory valve job, since the head work, it's been back to the shop 3 more times with a T-Stat issue

lshlsh2

The worst for me wasn't a car. The crankshaft broke in our new Massey-Fergenson Tractor at 4.9 hours. New moter under warrenty lasted 15years 2600 hours when we sold it.
Larry

citcapp

2003 Cadd STS bought in 2005 with 40K on the clock for a song. 100K no problems runs like a champ, Just regular service. I will keep it till the wheels fall off or it cost to repair exceeds a cheap monthly payment.

68conv455

2003 Chrysler Town and Country minivan - Wifes - 110,000 miles - no issues - Drives like a POS
1998 Chrysler Concored - Mine - 107,000 miles - no issues - nice car
2009 Chrysler 300 Touring - Mine - 66,000 miles - no issues - v.nice car
2000 GMC Sierra - Mine - 130,000 miles - no issues - won't sell it
Nothing but normal stuff on drivetrains above.
1968 Olds Cutlass Convertible - Mine - 83,000 miles - replaced everything

442much

Me too with the Aurora. So what did you sing? I also had to dance for mine (no twirling or dipping).

Aceshigh

Agreed. http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto...ican-made.aspx

Which one is buying more American here??

American laborers employed,
American real estate taxes being paid,
American payroll taxes being paid,
American local businesses benefiting from plant workers retail spending.
Profits going to "insert name" country & Shareholders globally.

VS GM, Ford, Chrysler who advertise "% American Made" which is really "North American" now to lie to consumers.
So this way they can keep the "Buy American" thing working for them.

Canadian or Mexican employed,
Canadian / Mexican real estate taxes paid
Canadian / Mexican payroll taxes paid
No American businesses profiting from plant worker retail spending
Oh......but the profits come to AMERICA where all these corporations
make ginormous writeoffs and don't pay any taxes ???
http://madeinusanews.com/w/2010/11/0...-years-for-gm/

realistically that's not an absolute for EVERY model vehicle out there but
it most definitely IS a realistic scenario with MANY vehicles and / or parts
being mass produced globally and assembled either here or there.

As I said before though, this entire argument is negligible when you buy a USED vehicle.
Because the one who bought it NEW helped the manufacturers, not you.
Buying maintenance parts are a shot in the dark with manufacturing regardless of brand name.

TK-65

Ford has 45,000 hourly and 21,000 salaried workers (66,000 total) in the US. Honda has 20,000 total. Toyota has 36,000 total

So plug those numbers into your first argument, who is contributing more? More workers, more plants, more money, Ford wins.

Honda employs 4,400 in Canada and 2,000 in Mexico. Toyota also has a large presence in Canada and Mexico. Ford and GM also assemble cars in Mexico, and India, and China, and Europe, and South America. Honda and Toyota do the same thing. Automakers are global companies, they make money or lose money all over the globe. But they all have a home country. America is not Honda, Toyota or Nissans home country.

Aceshigh

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...ker-honda.html
Honda employees more than 27,000 people in the U.S.; Toyota has 28,700 American employees.

Historically speaking, I never cared for Ford's build quality personally. (Chevy lately either)
They never rated very well on those reliability reports.
They are making some great LOOKING cars though.
Only time will tell if they move up the ladder in dependability.

I won't lie when I say I do love the new Mustangs though, and new F150 & F250's.
So......I might own a Ford in the future.......anything is possible.

As for Chrysler build quality......drunk and stoned UAW workers says it all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVmKyJXHXRE

The reality here is this,
I will NEVER buy a brand new car because of the massive depreciation.
Not when I can buy a used modern vehicle for close to 1/2 it's NEW price 3 years used.
I can also buy a salvaged title vehicle and fix it myself. I make great money but anything
over $15K - $20K for a vehicle IMO is a waste of money on a massively depreciating asset.

Aceshigh

GT500 Shelby is just a work of art inside and out.
In 2005 Ford hit a homerun going retro, but in 2010 they perfected the body.
In 2011 they finally gave the GT a big pair of ***** and perfected the drivetrain.

This is something I could see myself in......Shelby GT500
Vette's are everywhere, and I'm a Chevy guy, but I love this car.

76 Regency

I try to believe that the domestic cars have really come to compete with the top quality imports but I'm having a really hard time with it. I've driven 3 different year Honda Accords for about 11 years and could count the repairs for all 3 of them on one hand. My wife bought an '08 Saturn Vue brand new and in the last 3 years it's gotten a new power steering pump, TWO steering racks, a new radio and the wiper linkage just gave way the other day and the passenger wiper stopped working. I was able to make a "band-aid" repair until we can get it to the dealer just to get it working but it's really pretty unacceptable if you ask me. We both REALLY like the car and it runs and drives beautifully and has a lot of great features. It should go without saying that her car is very well taken care of since I do all the maintenance. The things that have broken are not even maintenance or servicable items. Luckily she bought an extended, 100K warranty so the repairs aren't costing us other than a small deductible but it's very frustrating regardless.

I sold my first Accord ('88) with over 150K, the '92 with 197K and my current '02 has over 100K and everything on each has worked as it should. I suppose luck is somewhat part of getting a good car but I'd rather stick with basing something I rely on as much as my car to quality instead of the luck of the draw.

On a side note....the whole "Jap Crap" phrase is pretty ignorant if you ask me. Not trying to start a battle here but there's a reason Honda and Toyota have taken over the industry. The quality of their cars has blown away what Detroit made for years. Not to mention the fact that when I work on my Honda, a ton of the parts say "Made in USA". Does it really matter what country owns a car company anyway if the car has parts made all over the world?

Cars like our classics are from an era when U.S. made cars were at their high point for quality and manufacturers were constantly making improvements and taking pride in what they produced. Even if a current domestic car can hold up in the long run, how many little repairs are being made over its life and how many stupid little things break because they're just made cheaply, etc? I am happy to say that the domestics are now made better than they were in days past and I am really hoping that they can eventually truly match the quality of the cars that they so desperately want to be like.

Sorry for the rant, I'm done now.

jaunty75

You make many good points, but I really don't think this is true. Cars like our classics are from an era BEFORE there was Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. The only significant foreign competition was the Volkswagen Beetle, and how significant was that?

I think the build quality of '60s and '70s American cars was all over the map, and we accepted it as normal because we had nothing else. On the other side of that coin, the manufacturers had no incentive to provide consistent build quality for the same reason...we as buyers had no place else to go if we wanted a car.

When the imports began to show up in earnest in the 80s and showed American car buyers what quality construction really means, the slow but steady decline in American auto manufacturing began that finally culminated in the bankruptcy of two of the three American auto makers a year ago.

Nilsson

My bottom line is I did not abandon American cars they abandoned me. The junk comming out of detroit the last 30 years was amazing that is until more recent. I, out of necessity needed a cars that were affordable and more important, dependable so I went the foreign car route in the early 90's. I became a fan of Japanese engineering out of necessity not choice at the time and became a fan over that time. I will never own a late model American car ever.

jaunty75

Just to take my '60s Detroit-bashing one step further, I remember an old joke that used to circulate back in the those days, and that was that you should not buy a car made on a Monday or a Friday. Friday cars were built by assembly line workers thinking more about the upcoming weekend than about the cars they were putting together, and Monday cars were built by workers disgruntled at having to come back to work after a nice weekend off. Best was to buy a Wednesday-built car, not that you had any control, anyway, over what day of the week the car you bought was built.

TK-65

Its laughable to think someone would believe that the 60s was the quality zenith for automakers. The cars from that era were not reliable at all. There was a reason you checked your oil at every fill up, a reason why every street corner had a gas station with a garage and tow truck, a reason why if you went on a long trip you brought a case of oil.

Detroit made cars with the wrong trim levels, wrong badges, missing parts, etc. A magazine story I recently read about a 68 Camaro noted the car had Firebird rocker panels and no spot welds under the rear window to hold the panel between the trunk in. We tend to romantize these cars now and tend to forget they rusted out after 3 years of winter driving. Had factory paint jobs with all kinds of flaws (Ive seen hand prints).

GM, Ford and Chrsyler make their best cars RIGHT NOW. There is no debating the issue.

jaunty75

I remember a newspaper article from back in the early '70s when I was in high school about a guy who bought a brand-new Pontiac and noticed that the word PONTIAC was spelled

P O N I T A C

across the trunk lid. This was the way it came from the factory. Probably a Monday car!

TK-65

People tend to forget the junk coming out of Japan in the 70s and early 80s. Go back the last 30 years on the Japanese side. When was the last time you saw a 1980 Toyota on the road? Hondas and Toyotas were tin cans that got great gas milage but were ugly, small, way underpowered, and rusted if you sneezed on them. But they were cheap and never broke down.

As the Japanese got better the domestics got worse. I get real tired of the thought that Japanese cars have always been great.

made in the usa

i am my mechanic i change my own transmission don't need any one to hold my hand. you want good reliable transportation buy American get your self a Toyota