Lady72nRob71

I prolly do it the long way - copy and paste, copy and paste - post!
Quote next one, copy, back, edit my last post, paste, add reply, post, and on, and on, and on........

I never figured out the multiple quote method. An explanation would be a great addition to the site help section...

Red Delta

This is true. The great thing about these new technologies that are being implemented is that they don't get as good of fuel economy (something very important in the transportation industry where every tenth of a mile per gallon translates to $1000 a year per truck )and they cost much more to purchase and maintain.

Now for the good part, those costs most certainly will not be absorbed by the shipper or the transportation company.

I will continue to rebuild and drive my economical, emmisions free '01 International that gets a predictable and steady 6.7 miles per gallon and leave those high cost, high maintenance trucks to someone else.

kaz442

Accorrding to Brad Penn thier oil is a partail synthetic, not that it matters it works!! JKaz

Dan Wirth

Your right, Brad Penn is a partial synthetic and Sepco 306 is a multi-grade.

Dan Wirth

In conclusion to my research on the oil issue, my sense is this really is an issue of neglect; that oil manufacturers aren't broadcasting (at the very least on their oil bottles) that the vehicles with flat tappet cam engines may be endangered by their products low on ZDDP. And if by some miracle there is some equivalent to ZDDP, then announce that too. This is especially important for the general consumer, non-mechanically oriented. The onus simply falls on the manufacturer to educate. This is not a case of "Let the buyer beware".

And even if there are ZDDP additives out there, why use them when it seems to be common knowledge that the correct amounts of ZDDP are best in the oil itself; which is available - in abundance.

So I say... why would any car owner even want to consider using API Service rated SM or CF-4 or CJ-4 oils in their older cars with flat tappet cams? This also includes oil bottles that are marked "Energy Conserving", and includes some of the lower weighted (0W, 5W) oils that can't seem to hold their liquor (ZDDP).

jeffreyalman

how do you know if you are affected? what cars need it and what cars don't?

Hydro462

NAPA still sells C-I rated oil called NAPA Premium. It's for fleet use. I use the 15-40. It's good oil and the price is right..

I use to use GM EOS until an old time GM mechanic told me not to use it unless I'm braking in a new motor or cam.. He said there is too many additives in it for regular street usage. I noticed my 462 picked up power when I quit using it...

Dan Wirth

Do you mean short of tearing the engine apart?...no, I can't tell you. To know exactly, the best method is to inspect the cam. But from what I've read. older cars in general are the prime candidates, and many trucks as well. There may be info in your shop or chassis manual, but I looked in mine and found nothing.

So I ask myself, does my 57 Olds have a flat tappet cam engine...probably - is as close as I come to an answer, until such time as I take the engine apart. And if I ever do take the engine apart it will be most definitely checked. One thing for certain is that there has never been a catalytic converter on my car - so the ZDDP equipped oil shouldn't hurt a bit - after all, she's been use to it over the years. Also there may be someone on this forum that knows.

Your question is a good one. It has motivated me to search the internet to see if there are any posts that identify specific makes and models (or engines) with the flat tappet cam. So far, nothing like an organized list of the vast number of engines and variety of cars has come up - (now that would be convenient - but unlikely; too large a study, except for someone (for example) working on a master's thesis).

I did find this link for Chevys (wish it were for Olds) that lists a few examples of Chevy engines by casting type, engine size and year. Scroll down and you will see examples of roller and flat tappet cams (how accurate this info is, is anyone's guess however):

http://www.mortec.com/castnum.htm

Dan Wirth

Can't find much on this oil, except it is made by Valvoline. CI is rated at a running average of Phos = 1150 (ppm), and Zinc = 1374 (ppm). In the target range example of 1200-1400 (ppm).

Good info on GM EOS. So are you using an additive, and if so, which one?

Hydro462

Hi Dan,
I use straight oil no additives. I have 60,000 miles on my motor.. It's a healthy 462.

I'll add a qt of Shaler Rislone if I get a sticking lifter..

I was told by an engine builder that the cam people are blaming the oil for all the cam failures a few years ago. But that they were actually caused by off center Chinese lifters that flooded the market when Johnson went out of business.. I hear Johnson is back in business making quality lifters again..

From what I read, Pennzoil in 1980 only had 900 parts of zinc..

Funny thing is I have a old 1983 Olds 98 with over 145,000 miles on the clock and I dump the cheapest oil I can find in it and it runs and sounds like a fine Swiss watch lol.....

cutlassgal

Aaahhhh.... Oldsmobiles... They take a licking and keep on ticking!!!!

Dan Wirth

Chinese lifters...so not only do we have to worry about food and toys imported from China, car parts as well? When will it ever end.

Hydro462

Funny, I was looking at a Hot Rod magazine from 1959 and there was an article on saving camshafts from going flat lol....

By the way, that 57 is magnificent!!!

Hydro462

X10!

Dan Wirth

Kind of a full circle thing!

Thanks for the complement.

wolfman98

Ya really their quality is suspect plus they don't have a lot of oversight on some of the addatives they use in products. here they have been ripping out cheap chinese drywall because it has been making people sick , something that is put into the drywall.

cutlassgal

I heard about that. Ancient Chinese Secret, huh?

citcapp

Yes, even a lot of respected suppliers are now having a lot of there stuff forged in china and then do some of the final machining here so they can say made in america. A few examples CAT, Scat, Eagle, the list goes on and on. You can't hardly do anything without some china products involved. I am finding this out with the 455 build for the 48 Olds. I am trying to make it all american made and it is taking some research to make sure all of the parts are made right here in the good old USA

delmontcrusier

Sad isn't it and if it wasn't for trade neither the US or China would have anything to do with each other.Seeing as the country of china is commie I don't figure they nesesarily like us either.I have to admit I have bought a few things made by them that broke or snapped in a short timeThe sad thing is america is selling out.The power company sold out to a spanish company here with in the last two years.I am sorry but alot of the forgen parts are not quality.I know a shop that will chime to that tune.Many of the parts you can buy that are still decent are canadian and some mexican made but stuff made here seems to be getting far few and between.

My442

chineseum stuff is crap.......

Poorly made for a reason......CHEAP

I go out of my way to buy USA for new stuff.

If I can't get it new, then I buy used made in the USA.

Nilsson

Mexico will always come out on top of made in China. Who would of ever thought that a few years back when I was complaining of the made in Mexico junk. Americas economy is now one big ponzi scheme and it won't change anytime soon.

wolfman98

It's only a matter of time before communism will fall in China. they need more and more educated people there and the internet is really hard to regulate. they are going to have to improve quality or loose deals cause of harmfull products being imported. remember the baby food scandal? the guy in charge of the company got 25 years in jail. maybe we should have such punishment for some of the CEO's of big banks and companies that screw us over.

cutlassgal

Yeah, what you said!

delmontcrusier

yeah unfortunatly as sad and goofy as it is

hmm will it fall there and start here that seems to be alot of peoples sentiment here with all the crazy stuff going on.

LOL

wolfman98

hmm will it fall there and start here that seems to be alot of peoples sentiment here with all the crazy stuff going on.



I guess you would have to look north to see if the changes we made in canada turned us into a communist country. The far right wing and big buisness has always used scare tactics to try to turn people against it. Here the NDP party has been labeled communist for 50 years but they have managed to get elected on provincial levels. Here in Nova Scotia they just got elected and I am not worried at all. As a matter of fact they just offered university and secondary school teachers and employees 1% increase in wage so now they are on strike. They are trying to balance a budget that the former government screwed so claiming to be fiscally responsible and conservative with provincial finances Well all I can say is good luck cause this province isin deep with high unemployment.

Destructor

Communism, socialism, both equally pathetic.

wolfman98

Can you tell me what would make a country socialist/communist and do you have examples of countries that are socialist/communist? Just want to see where I should not live.

Destructor

Cuba comes to mind, former USSR, China; though they continue to somewhat move into capitalism, France. That's just a few. Any country with policies of wealth redistribution, so called social justice. Socialism has been a total failure everyplace where it has been tried. Socialism is the ultimate system of greed, it puts the control of peoples lives into the hands of the very few, high taxes for the sake of social justice takes away freedom from the people who work and to pay for those programs that support people who don't work or made no attemp to better themselves, and I'm not talking about safety nets. COMMIES SUCK!

wolfman98

Well from what I understand people in the old USSR all worked at something depending on your ability or education , so I would think then that medicare and medicaide would be a form of socialism? A truley democratic society will work with capitalism but only if there are checks and balances. just as totaly socialistic societies won't work neither will totally capitalistic societies. You need to be able to make your millions but not by raping the regular folks who do all their dirty work.

Dan Wirth

I've been away from this thread for a few days now, and was wondering what happened to it. Looks like it evolved into a political one.

Some of you have been around this forum longer than me, and maybe you could tell me if this political discussion is appropriate here or should it go to some other thread - I realize that I also commented on products from China, but did not think it would go much further along. I would like to suggest leaving this political track at this time, and move on.

Thanks for your comments.

wolfman98

Sometimes it is too easy to get off track and I find myself rebutting some opinions when I should just let sleeping dogs lie. I guess it started with quality of chinese products and went from there. I think that we as consumers just have to demand quality products and buy American or canadian made products when we can. The recent 4 row rad i just bought was American made even though I could have bought a cheaper one I chose to buy one that was produced in North America. It's little things all of us can do to make a difference.

citcapp

Lets take this thread back to the oil issue (It started going sidways with the lifter issues)

I just had the injector pump fixed on my CAT diesel and the mechanic who worked on it suggested that I put additive in both the oil and the gas because of the low sulfur fuel now being used not enough lube in the fuel for seals and mech pumps.

wolfman98

Hmm I will have to check on the fuel I use in my TL80 New Holland. I do get the farm fuel but it is probably low sulfer as well. I do use CJ-4 Rotella but wonder if I should also use a fuel addative. What fuel addative are you using?

Dan Wirth

I just sent away and received info on AMSOIL products. They are synthetics that provide up to 25000 miles or one year on an oil change (also using their filter). Their Premium Protection brand (10W-40 and 20W-50) meets SJ requirements, placing this product in the target range of 1200-1400 for Zinc and Phos.They have a diesel product as well (15W-40) rated at SL,

I like the idea of using AMSOIL, although it seems expensive, you actually save money in oil changes over a year period. However, it would be hard for me not to change the oil more frequently as I've been doing so every 3000-4000 miles my whole life.

Anyone out there use AMSOIL and if so, for how long and do you recommend it?

The Stickman

I run AMSOIL. I ran it for years when I raced my daily driver S-10. Only stopped because of being outa work and funds being tight. I am now back to using it. I use the 20W-50.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/aro.aspx

Nilsson

Amisol I hear is a good product. I want to point out something oils are backwardation. Which means the latest and greatest rating can meet SJ as well as all the other grades in between and have less zinc in its latest form then the previous ratings.

One way to make sure your engine gets it's daily requirment of zinc is to use high quality motorcycle oils. These oils are loaded with zinc period.

Dan Wirth

I think this is the best all around weight year round for my car as well.

If an oil is rated API SJ as well as all the other ratings in between, then it should give you enough zinc and phos.

I think you need to be more specific in what you are talking about here. I have not seen the term "Backwardation," except as a financial term. And it's use is not close to how you are using it above. Please explain in more detail.

wolfman98

Well I would say offhand that this should be suffice for the Olds big block motors , especially those that have a few miles on them. it does carry the JASO MA rating as well as meeting the Cat and Cummins and Mack specs so the only thing I can't find are the #'s but they do have comparative testing results. I have not seen Amsoil products around here and the only other oils they compared themselves against i can get would be the Mobile , Pennzoil , GTX , Quaker etc. The one that I can get is the Rotella CJ-4 so it may be the best choice. On the Amsoil site it says that it meets the CI-4 specs but not the newer CJ-4 specs? I wonder which one has more of the zinc addatives?

cutlassgal

I'm still confused!! I'll never look at oil the same as I used to!! It's like steel - until I started working in the steel industry, I never knew that steel was made up of different "ingredients"! I never really thought about it, or had any reason to think about it! To me, steel was steel. Heavy, dirty, and rusts in water! I never looked at a block of steel and wondered hmmmm... is that A-36, P-20, W-2 etc... Then I find out that different steels have different chemical analysis' that they are made of.
Kind of like oils. I'll never remember all this technical stuff, so I'm sure I'll still be asking questions!! I've worked around steel for 14 years now, and what I've learned is.... it's heavy, dirty, and rusts in water, no matter what it's chemical analysis is!! LOL!

Dan Wirth

Amsoil has independent dealers in specific areas around the country, go to their website for more info where they are located. I have not seen their products in the auto stores - but wish they had them there. You can also purchase their products on line, which is a good option except for the S&H expense. But you still save over the long run , needing only one oil/filter change per year or 25000 miles (whichever comes first) on their premium products.

CJ-4 has a running average of phos = 819(ppm) and zinc = 1014(ppm). Below the example target range of 1200-1400(ppm) I am looking for.

• CI-4 (on the other hand) is in the target range, having phos = 1150(ppm) and zinc = 1374(ppm)

CJ-4 is not recommended for older cars, nor is SM rated motor oils. I am not sure about the newer CJ-4 standard you mentioned (I think it is called CJ-4 Plus).

There is a study (and API chart) by LN Engineering that gives these API Service running averages (in previous post of this thread) that may be of interest to you.