AJFink

The last few times I have had the car out my power steering is giving me problems. After a good run to town 30 min drive, highway speeds and above 1000 rpm no problem. on idle 600 to 800 rpm in drive it is ether erratic (jerky) or very hard to steer almost wants to lock up, give a little throttle and it helps. From the time I finished the restoration 800 miles ago this is getting worst.

I am using Valvoline Power Steering Fluid
Fluid level at cold is good but hot it is about a 1/4" below the hot mark.
I have checked for air and have found a little and have gone thru the lock to lock and letting it sit until no air. But when I go to lock to lock I am not hearing the pump squeal.
My belt tension is about 1/2" deflection between PS pump and Water pump.
The power steering pump and the steering gear box is a Lares Both are remanufactured and bought from Rock Auto.

Need some Help Please

oldcutlass

Sounds like your belt is loose and slipping.

AJFink

How tight can I get it without harming the shaft bearings

oldcutlass

Tighten it a bit more and see if the squealing stops. Note, pumps themselves do squeal and groan if you force the steering against the end stop. Also you can drain the pump and use transmission fluid, if the jerkiness does not go away. A bad/kinked hose can also cause your issue.

AJFink

Thing is I am not getting any squealing not even a groan going into the stops. I have checked the hoses and no kinks.
I was wondering if going to transmission fluid could be the fix.

Thanks for working with me on this Eric

droldsmorland

"From the time I finished the restoration 800 miles ago, this is getting worse".

ATF is what Marty advised me to use after he rebuilt the system.

What was restored? The pump and the box?
Is the pulley tight on the pump shaft? If you did pull it apart did you check the inline strainer and check valve etc?
If its a reman pump from a big box parts store I'll bet your "new" pumps no good?
As advised start simple and check the belt again for tension and glazing. 1/2" deflection isn't bad. You do not here any belt squeal right?
Mine would do this every so often until I had Marty rebuild the system.

AJFink

From my first post (The power steering pump and the steering gear box is a Lares Both are remanufactured and bought from Rock Auto.) Pump came with tank

woodie582

AJ, I have the Lars 974 and their pump and I get the same hard steering when warm, only at idle. Driving and slow speed are fine. I just started looking at a resolution. I have about 1000 miles on mine. My belt is proper and I never get a squeal or other abnormal sounds.

droldsmorland

"The fluid recommended for these pumps and gearboxes is Automatic Transmission Fluid. Dextron III or Ford type F. This is what these units were designed for".
Words directly from Marty Preuss owner of PowerSteering.com. He bought out and was trained by "Chip".

Above I meant the control valve. Check that before you go ripping it apart. Follow the hyperlinks below.

"If its a reman pump from a big box parts store I'll bet your "new" pumps no good?" Rock Auto is considered a big box store.


https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...eering-115630/

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-fluid-130394/

AJFink

Well this is interesting to say the least "I'M NOT ALONE"

We will get some closer on this site I'm sure.....

AJFink

[QUOTE=droldsmorland;1191881]"The fluid recommended for these pumps and gearboxes is Automatic Transmission Fluid. Dextron III or Ford type F. This is what these units were designed for".
Words directly from Marty Preuss owner of PowerSteering.com. He bought out and was trained by "Chip".

Above I meant the control valve. Check that before you go ripping it apart. Follow the hyperlinks below.

Beings I have used the power steering fluid is my gear box going to be ok switching to ATF?
If the check valve is the problem and from Joes post from your link, what would the setting for the adjustment screw be? I'll have to remove the pump anyway to pull it and if i go that far I'll just replace the pump with one from NAPA.

droldsmorland

Suction gun the reservoir, fill with ATF, run it lock to lock a few times, wheels off the ground, shut it off, suction it down again, refill, repeat until your satisfied all the thin juice is mitigated. 3-4-5 qts oughta do it.
You won't hurt anything. Do it again after cruise season. It is a good idea to do this every so often...like brake, diff and trans fluid which most ignore.

The valve can get partially or fully hung up from shoddy assembly, burrs or debris within the valve bore.
If it partially hangs up in the valve bore you'll get a reduced, erratic or total loss of pressure. This is generally more pronounced at idle. It will be masked by raising the engine RPM as engine power causes an inrush of steering fluid making it easier turn.
If the valve is totally hung up, all power assist will be lost as if the belt came off.
Saginaw pumps are notorious for both symptoms.

It could just be junk in the valve. Valves are available separately and are serviceable.
Carefully pull the valve out and apart. Be mindful of the shims, spring, ball and stop. It all can go flying into the bowels of your shop. Make sure it all goes back together in the same order which it was removed.
Can't hurt to gently polish the OD of the valve with crocus cloth. Use a gun bore brush(nylon or brass) the bore. Don't want to scratch either surface. Next, do a good backflush with ATF.

Assemble, fill, bleed and test drive.

As far as the adjustment is concerned its better explained below...more info than you probably need but a good illustration of how it works.

http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articl...rsteeringmods/

AJFink

Wow that is a lot of info but good stuff to have. Didn't know that this was possible in lieu of replacing the whole pump and customizing it as well. My only question would be by raising the pressure is this during idle or highway speeds? I am hoping idle then I can possibly do without an idle solenoid when I have the AC on.

Thanks for passing this on

Vintage Chief

How do you intend to raise the pressure? What do you intend to do? Did you follow the 1st suggestion in Post #4, yet? Did the squeal go away. I'm not following you on how you intend to raise the pressure?

These cars were not built w/ an idle solenoid. You need to resolve the issue.

Vintage Chief

Tony - There are four possible causes which are specifically identified in the CSM. I will list them in order. They should be listed in your CSM, as well. Mine come from the 1971 CSM (page 9-4). I have found the CSM to be nearly 90% dead correct on diagnostics/troubleshooting.

STEERING WHEEL SURGES OR JERKS WHEN TURNING WITH ENGINE RUNNING ESPECIALLY DURING PARKING (FWIW - this would be an idle condition - which is nearly identical to your experience you described above)

POSSIBLE CAUSE CORRECTION

Loose pump belt Adjust tension to specification
Sticky flow control valve Inspect for varnish or damage
Steering linkage hitting engine oil pan at full turn Correct clearance
Insufficient pump pressure Check pump pressure (See pump pressure test). Replace relief valve if defective.

Vintage Chief

I might venture a suggestion. First, perform the item Eric suggested - tighten the belt a little to see if the squealing stops, next:

You should get some squeal from stop-to-stop. If you don't, in my mind it does appear to suggest you might not have sufficient pressure and I believe you said you might have air or found air? So, before you spend the time removing etc., you might try the very simple procedures of ensuring your fluid is spot-on up to level.

(1) Go turn-to-turn (hard) ... in particular, turn to the RH side (hard). Do this several times and note the fluid level after several of these attempts. The reservoir is self bleeding - air will vent from the reservoir. If you notice fluid going down even a smidgen, continue to perform this operation numerous (4-5) times until the reservoir remains absolutely steady and level. This process bleeds the air. Continue adding fluid until it remains at one level and continue this procedure for awhile. Sure much easier to do the simplest first.

AJFink

You can raise the pressure by following the link in post #12......

1. But first I am going to flush and replace the power steering fluid with transmission fluid and see if that cures it.
2. At this point I have no Squeal ........ So I am going to tighten my belt a little bit more.
3. I know that my year did not come with a idle stop solenoid this would be the last resort. I have this issue even more when I have the AC on currently. But if 1 and 2 fixes it then its all good.

I am going to do all the simple stuff first..... Its only been 45+ years since I have been working on these types of problems and a lot has been learned since. This site has been so helpful during this restoration and I am going to keep coming to the well. I am finding out that I have forgotten more than I have learned from the last time I was driving these classics back in the day.

Getting old SUCKS but driving my C/S again makes it all go away.

Vintage Chief

Spot-On. Sounds like a great plan. And, yeah - they're great vehicles and each time I'm in mine, it reminds me of my 1st car (1967 4-4-2) and my second 4-4-2 (1972).

Hey, if you do not have a 1972 CSM, all I can say is BUY ONE and buy the paperback copy. Plenty originals still for sale via eBay, Amazon & others. Good luck, Tony.

AJFink

Thank you and yes I have all the manuals, somehow I have missed reading what you have quoted from the CSM. Shows everything else, will be looking it up again.

droldsmorland

Yep welcome. I tend to get a little overzealous on responses when I have time and know the subject well enough to ramble.... through 45 years of busted knuckles.

The pressure, as mentioned, should be verified before attempting any modifications. This applies to any hydraulic system... transmissions included. If the pressure checks within spec move to the next level.

Verify no belt slippage. Can you turn the pully with a little help of a socket or open-end? If so the belts lose or glazed. Verify the pulley isn't loose on the shaft(remove the belt, hold pulley, turn the nut with a wrench).

The PSI that the system was designed for should be sufficient and should be maintained. You're not running 38s (swamp tires). Turning the pressure up in an uncontrolled manner can lead to other system failures(hoses, seals etc).

This system can be tested in-situ with the correct gauges & adaptors. Or rip it all out and send it in for a full rebuild(after exhausting all likely root causes) Throwing parts at a problem will only frustrate you and thin out your wallet.

Give Marty a call. He will talk to you if he's not crazy busy. Tell him Steve with the red 68 442 in Rochester sent you. 417.374.7627 PowerSteering.com. He has everything generally in stock and his turn around is not bad.
I'll attach pictures of his work when home as the POS work PC won't allow this.

AJFink

Thank you Steve for the 911 in case all else fails.
I'll be changing out the fluid this Friday and have a show on Saturday should see some change maybe a fix.
Ramble all you want I take it all as advise and we all know what we can do with that......Its good to see that there are people out there that truly care and want to help no matter how big or small.......You Know We Are a Dying Breed.

droldsmorland

Here is Martys work:

AJFink

Just an update I adjusted the belt and did a flush and drain of the system and using ATF. Sorry to say I still have the problem. I'm on travel for this week and when I get back I'll be removing the flow control valve to see if it is stuck.

droldsmorland

Eliminating the simple stuff was not wasted time in the troubleshooting world.
You said this is a rock auto pump... Might just want to exchange it. Taking it apart could void return/replacement? But done with care you could at min look at the valve for sure.

oldcutlass

It was worth a try...

AJFink

Well after a week out on TDY and back, I have solved the problem over the holiday weekend. After taking out the flow control valve and checking cleaning and reinstalling this did not fix it. Only thing left was to replace the pump. Went to NAPA and got a rebuilt and put it in ........... FIXED IT!
One thing I did do by the book was to bleed the system by the CSM. All is good even lowered my idle back to factory specs 600 rpms in drive and all works very well even with the AC on and doing slow cornering.
Thanks guys!

droldsmorland

Glad you won the battle. And thanks for following up on the fix.

oldcutlass

x2

Vintage Chief

x3