76olds

I should have my new 5 axis AKUMA machining centre installed and ready to rock soon. Hoping to have it up running with all the bugs worked out by the first week in November.
When the machine isn't loaded up with work,
My plans are to digitise/design some early 350 heads, purchase some aluminium blocks , then begin trying to make a few nice sets. I have all the software needed to design and machine anything.
When I get a little closer to starting on these I will have many questions to ask, I hope to get some help here.

Cheers
Eric

oldcutlass

Look forward to following along.

olds 307 and 403

Copy the factory outer head design so a mechanical fuel pump can be used. I say modern fast burn chambers and long reach spark plugs. Raise the exhaust floor otherwise copy the factory ports. Watching this one.

quaddriver

whose package are you using to scan them in? which version of mastercam might you be using?

its better to use raw castings of known heads to get the cooling passages unless this is for drag only.

If you find you get the 'broken spline' problem after a scan and if leaves the little hiccup in the cutback, let me know, I wrote a wash for that that smoothes it out.

jpc647

Interesting. Subscribing to this thread. I've had a couple of those "broken spline" problems when making fixtures at work. My machinist never seems to figure it out.

OldSoldier

That's pretty cool, watching this as well!

joe_padavano

Here's a suggestion. Try making Olds heads with Chevy LS chambers and ports. THAT'S where the HP magic is in those LS motors.

76olds

I'm going to use the CMM for digitising initially (Statistical analyses software- QC-CALC )

My final design, I use Solid Works, then Work-NC for the 3-5 axis machining. I just use Mastercam 19 for 2D work.

I don't have any issues with broken splines, have been using solids since 2009.
If I need to create surfaces from a solid or curves from a solid and see broken splines, I just join them up and convert the splines to arcs wherever possible for machining purposes.

If I run into any issues I'll ask here for sure, thanks.

76olds

Most defiantly will be able to use the mechanical pump, I'm going to go off of the #6 olds head. I have to go out to Hamilton to pick up the heads. They are in ruff shape but for digitising they should be Ok for what I want to try.
As many of you guys know, I'm no engine guy so I would like some of your feed back once I get is scanned and put into solid form .

I will be machining them on an Okuma MU 8000VMC 22" X 40"
15,000 rpm spindle, coolant through will be awesome when machining the heads.

Thanks to all for your feedback !!
Cheers
Eric

76olds

Thanks Joe, Ill need more info. Should I try to find some LS heads and integrate some geometry in with the Olds head?

quaddriver

ok if you ever, or any of you do, the program is 'MCWASH.exe' and it was written in C++ using BCB6.0 - but can compiled anywhere. I wrote it and copyrighted it in 2005 so, its 32bit AND it runs on the centroid 400 control which was Linux. I also have a winxp version floating around.

I wrote it for Tom Hemphill of Hemphill racing in Clarksburg PA and will ask him if anyone wants it - as of right now, the machine I devloped on is 5 machines back for me, but I have a DVDrom entitled 'everything' with my BCB stuff so it might be there. I also gave it to Centroid (my client at the time) as open source, so if you ask them and they have it, they had better not charge (they dont have to give it to you, but they absolutely may not charge you for the code)

specifically this was written for the 2005 version of the M400 control with the touch probe and using the intercon files with mastercam 'x' (version 10). It was a restatement of the G-code for the single axis head move when going from circle to circle.

If anyone has a non-centroid machine producing the same problem, id have to see the output G code to determine if my fix is right as is, or needs a tweak.

to the OP - the LS series head is what god truly intended for an intake port. it moves a tremendous amount of air thru a relatively small valve. the size and shape shares zip, zero, zilch, nanda, nunca with the traditional oval/rectangular ports. If you do this for an olds head - and it would be interesting for sure, you will also be doing an intake as well, a stock LS1 port is nearly twice as tall as anything you have even encountered.

76olds

Thanks for the offer Quaddriver, I'm currently running windows 10 with my software- 64 bit.
The program you have won't work unless someone is using the old winxp I think.
In any case, mastercam has a good feature as you know that will blend splines, at that point you can covert the splines to arcs for machining purposes. Then post out with arc filters on.
This is how I dealt with splines back in the day.
Thanks again for your input!!
Cheers
Eric

76olds

I'm really only planning to just duplicate the stock #6 heads at the moment. No port work etc, simply because I don't know anything about it.
If someone has some dimensions they could give me in the ports I can design them.

A question for those who know aluminium grades,
Should I machine the heads from
T6-6061
5154-H38
A-356

I'm thinking A-356 because I believe that's what Edelbrock uses.
Please give me your input.
Thanks
Eric

MDchanic

I'll be lurking on this one...

- Eric

oldolds88

way over my head,but interesting none the less.

quaddriver

still I ask, if this is not a drag application, how will you get around the cooling passage portion?

olds 307 and 403

Using the stock layout is OK as any existing CNC porting programs would work. I would update to a fast burn chamber and long reach plug in the center of the chamber angled towards the exhaust valve in say a 64 cc size. Or leave the chamber and plug hole blank for the purchaser to add their own. Edelbrock heads have a good track record in A-356 castings.

tru-blue 442

+1.

76olds

I haven't seen a set of heads off an engine, I have no idea what you mean. I will be picking up the heads in a couple of weeks hopefully. At that point I'll see what you are referring to.
Machining some Olds heads is something I have been wanting to do for a few years now. I happened to be presented with a package to quote with some nice 5 axis work, I was fortunate enough to have landed the deal.
I won't be producing Olds heads for drag application, I don't plan on producing Olds 350 heads either.
This is just something I wanted to try and if it works out good, and others would like some, then I would do a set here and ther. I'm not looking to make money at this.
If a few guys wanted some then it would be for the hobby, not for profit.
Please fill me in on what you mean by the coolant passages, would they be difficult to put in?
Thanks
Eric

76olds

If the first set of stock form heads come out OK after machining, I would consider seeking help from someone that knows how to port an Olds head along with other changes that some would like to run in the future. This is just a project, not a money maker. Having said that, if someone in our olds community would like a set in the future, we could do a set.
Let me get my feet wet working on just a duplicated stock head and go from ther.
Cheers
Eric

MDchanic

That sounds very sensible.

- Eric

76olds

Thanks Eric, I'm pretty confident I can pull off a decent set of stock heads within decent tolerances from the stock head to a machined head. I'm not sure about the water passages mentioned, however anything is possible. Maybe everyone will get a set of heads here on CO next christmas haha.
Cheers
Eric

tru-blue 442

Small block heads 1st, if that works out, maybe large valve b/b heads...

quaddriver

ok, production heads are cast with cooling passages that let water from the block up, around the combustion chamber, near the exhaust port and exits into the intake manifold*[1] where it exits the engine.

All stock olds engines *[2] have block cooling cores and this has to go somewhere.

Thats why I said it would be best to get raw castings....they are olds head 'sized' but all ports, bowls and combustion chambers are not cut or finished. do your cutback into THESE first. (of course this ignores the fact that I do not know any maker doing raw olds castings)

And, since you are new at this, I would get machinists wax, melt it into head sized chunks, bolt that to the mill and practice on it - the wax has a similar feed rate to aluminum and needs no coolant to cut.

Notes:
[1]= Ignoring funny ford products

[2]= Ignoring the old DRCE stuff

76olds

Haha, if I can pull this off, I would defiantly make some for our members. I'm not out to make money, this is just a hobby thing. If I could make a few sets, put smiles on some of our members faces for a decent price then that would be great.
Cheers
Eric

76olds

[QUOTE=quaddriver;958660]ok, production heads are cast with cooling passages that let water from the block up, around the combustion chamber, near the exhaust port and exits into the intake manifold*[1] where it exits the engine.

All stock olds engines *[2] have block cooling cores and this has to go somewhere.

Thats why I said it would be best to get raw castings....they are olds head 'sized' but all ports, bowls and combustion chambers are not cut or finished. do your cutback into THESE first. (of course this ignores the fact that I do not know any maker doing raw olds castings)

And, since you are new at this, I would get machinists wax, melt it into head sized chunks, bolt that to the mill and practice on it - the wax has a similar feed rate to aluminum and needs no coolant to cut.


I understand what you mean now, I figured they may have been cast with 90deg turns inside the head or something crazy that I wouldn't be able to machine from a cast A-356 ingot.
If that was the case then I would have to drill waterlines similar to a high compression mould. Possibly plug some if need be.
I'm looking at a supplier in China ( Ya I know) that will supply these solid ingots cheaper than I could buy them here or in the U.S.
So will they be Chinese? Yes the material will most likely be.
I know where your coming from when you say proto type with the wax or even Teflon. Depending on the design, how tight the radius is in the ports I may go that route.
If I scrap a block or 2 of aluminum that won't be a big deal, its the machine & tooling I'd be more concerned about haha.
I appreciate your input!!

Seff

As has been said, LS 1 combustion chamber (with angled valves, increased squish pad, and a spark plug very close to the exhaust valve) will all allow for a more effective combustion, in turn making more power.

Once you really get proficient, you should look into making OW43 heads. They're a known design that was tested. Would be very interesting to see those in action.

76olds

Seff,

Would you know how,who or where to get the design? Solid,surfaces or wire frame Cad file would be awesome.
Thanks
Eric

Seff

For the LS1? Possibly something someone modeled at some point, but there is no guarantee. Is there a way of scanning or taking molds of existing heads and making a copy of that? Because making a mock of a LS chamber on an Olds head shouldn't be difficult.

For the OW43 head? You'll have to model it. http://www.streetmusclemag.com/news/...hat-never-was/

76olds

I don't have any plans on incorporating the LS chambers into the Olds head at this point.
For the first off pair, they will be very close to a set of #6 small block Olds using A-356 aluminium.
Design changes are always a possibility, however at this point I don't have the experience to make the changes with respect to better flowing heads etc.

Seff

That makes sense.

What is the process you envision for replicating an existing head?

76olds

Initially I'll take as many measurements as I can in order to create the geometry needed to produce a wire frame model. At that point I will create surfaces to be machined from. I will also try to create a solid with solid works, this will be much quicker to make changes in the future.

Seff

Good idea. Plotting out bolt holes, intake and exhaust ports, bore locations, coolant passages, as well as valve positions and angles will give you the "hard limits" for an Olds head.

76olds

It will take time to get everything created and ready for machining, as you say some locations are critical. Not going to be working to microns, but would like to keep positioning and angles within a few thou. The second set will be much better haha.
Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it.
Eric

Seff

No problem, it's a very exciting project!

ELY442

How about a Hemi?

76olds

Don't they come in crates lol.. I could engrave something cool into the Olds head.
Personalised head anyone? Pffft not a chance !!!

76olds

Hey listen, if I can knock a set of factory spec heads out to begin with. I will hook you guys up with something fairly decent in the future. Something that won't hit your wallet that hard.
Material cost, machining time and tooling isn't a huge cost to be very honest. The design will be a little time consuming initially, however it will be wrote off as my hobby. I'm not here to gouge anyone if these heads work out.
Anyone that's has something to contribute will be taken care of. I'm not looking for any cash,deposits, nothing. If you have a sketch or drawing or heads that has been worked, I can duplicate the area and send em back. I will pay all costs. Something to think about!!
Have a good weekend guys, be back on Tuesday.
Cheers
Eric

MDchanic

Pushrods vs rocker arms vs head bolts vs spark plugs vs valve tracts vs valves.

At the very least you'd have to borrow another engine's rocker arms, rocker arm pivots/fasteners, and valve covers and flange to pull that one off.

- Eric

Seff

The troubles of putting four valves (necessary to make a hemi) into the Olds combustion chamber while working with pushrods was the reason the engineers went to overhead cams in the development of the W43/OW43. Wedge chambers would be far better, given the constrictive nature of the cam, lifters, pushrods and rockers. The squish pad (not really present in an hemi) grants a measure of mechanical octane, and the smaller cross section of the chamber allows for leaner burn and higher compression at the same octane rating.

If you want to change the rocker ratio because you change the angle of the valves, you will have to rethink either the rocker design, and/or regrind the cam to match the new rocker ratio. Not impossible at all, but a definite hassle.