Aqua67

Within 20 minutes of putting the windows down on my 67 Delta Custom I attempted to put them up and got no response. None of the buttons on any of the doors are working. Of course I checked the fuse but other than that i'm not sure what else to check that would cause power failure.. there are no relays correct??

m371961

Not sure about your year. Power for my 65 98 comes through the breaker located on firewall and is controlled by a relay in left footwell under panel. I believe the relay is activated by the key switch, and then provides power to window switches.
Check your wire diagram. In 65 the drawings are in detail in the body manual.

Aqua67

Is the relay part of the fuse box?

lemoldsnut

On my 67 442 the relay is on the inside of the firewall about 2/3 or the way across the car from the left side. So about the area of the radio and is screwed to the firewall on the inside. Just above the heater box. I replaced the relay and the complete wiring harness as they get brittle after all this time. I replaced the window motors and switches as well. They are still a pain sometimes. I am going to replace them with aftermarket power windows in the spring. I did the rears a few years ago and they work great the factory ones not so much.

In the attached picture you can see the inside of the firewall with the dash out. the relay on the right in the picture is the power window relay. This is on a 67 442

Larry

Aqua67

Thanks I'll check it out. The windows work amazing, very fast and no gaps just no power at this point

lemoldsnut

Edited my post to show a picture. The power source is from the horn relay and goes to another relay on the firewall as previously stated. It is sometimes very hard to access with the fender on. It would be on the drivers side of the firewall on the engine side. That is the power source relay and the other one is the window control relay.

m371961

You sure the wire from the horn relay junction goes to a relay first, not a breaker then to the relay? The breaker is on the outside of the firewall, then the wire goes to a relay.

MDchanic

... But this is a 98, and not a 442.

I had two '68 fullsizes, and both had the breaker on the firewall, in the vicinity of the brake booster, and the relay up behind the left-hand kick panel, inside the body, in a place you don't know exists.

Check the breaker first.

- Eric

lemoldsnut

Your right it is a breaker, on the outside of the firewall. Used the wrong term sorry. A hot lead comes from the battery post on the horn relay then to the breaker on the firewall then to the inside where it feeds the relay. I have had the breakers go bad and have a wire break there as well.

Aqua67

So help me out here..is one of these the breaker/relay?

m371961

The one on the firewall below your volt regulator is a breaker. Both wires should show 12 volts.

MDchanic

- Eric

m371961

Thanks MD.

MDchanic

Sure, Patrick.

By the way, my post wasn't a response or correction to you - I started it before you posted, and had "a few" interruptions, so I didn't realize you had answered the question as well.

- Eric

m371961

You answered it better. My 98, the breaker is located on the other side of booster btwn the booster and fenderwell. Plus if I am not mistaken, I do not have that blower relay, added later years to stop problems at blower resister.

Sorry to digress Agua. check for volts going in and out of the breaker and let us know what you find. That breaker can be replaced with a common one found in parts stores, but I do not know what amp rating yours is. (MD?) It is usually on the breaker somewhere.

MDchanic

Thanks, Patrick.

I've seen those breakers all over that general vicinity, and I sure can't keep track of it by year or model.

Testing it by confirming +12V to both sides (easiest with a test light to ground) will work fine, but another thing you can do is jump one terminal to the other - it shouldn't spark without the windows being operated - and then trying the windows. If it does spark when you touch the terminals together, then you've got a short, and need to find it and sort it out.

As for the breaker's value, I think they're either 30 or 40A, probably depending on year or model, and, yes, it should be marked on the breaker.

- Eric

Aqua67

You all are a wealth of information, I really appreciate you taking the time. I will get on it today and let you know the outcome!! Thanks again

Aqua67

[QUOTE=Aqua67;972420]You all are a wealth of information, I really appreciate you taking the time. I will get on it today and let you know the outcome!! Thanks again[/QUOTE

How do I take that out, doesn't even seem to be a way to disconnect the wires from the relay.

MDchanic

The rubber boot should pry off of the top (it's probably a bit stiff), revealing two screw terminals underneath.

- Eric

Aqua67

no
I took it off and replaced it with a 30 amp and I still have no power windows. I'm starting to suspect a possible ground issue because my horn was just clicking until I played with the ground. I wobbled the wire and managed to get a horn but no windows and when I disconnected the wire all together I lost the horn. If the ground is not the issue don't know where else to look.

m371961

So you did not test it for power or jump it as MD said.
The horn has nothing to do with the window circuit or the breaker, unless the connection of the horn relay and the junction of the wires at the junction block is loose, dirty and corroded. This connection is under the cap at the horn relay. Disconnect the battery and clean the wires bolted together here.
You need to test for volts at the breaker on both sides. The wire to the breaker comes from the junction located at the horn relay.
You could try a jumper wire from the battery + to the breaker if you do not have a test light or voltmeter. I strongly suggest getting one, along with factory manuals.

Aqua67

I did all of the above, attempted to buy a test light could not find one at my Advance Auto or Home Depot. I did jump the wires and got no spark however I did get a spark from the hot wire by accident. The windows started working again just as abruptly as they quit and I don't have an explanation why. When I turn the headlights on the two lights under the hood come on now. But the horn is still not working. No explanation why the horn quit

MDchanic

Well, I'm glad you fixed it!

As for a test light, the best is probably just to solder a couple of leads to an 1156 bulb - it'll probably last longer than most testers that you could buy.

As for the horn, just test the components systematically, and you'll find the problem.
Unplug horns from relay, jump +12V to that wire. Horns blowing confirms horns and wire are good.
Unplug horn button from relay and jump relay terminal to ground. Horns should sound.
If not, then relay is bad.
If they do sound, then you have a problem in your horn button or the wiring from it to the relay.

Good luck!

- Eric

Aqua67

Windows stopped working again..breakers have power, fuses have power, cannot find a relay in the left hand kick panel? 67 olds delta88

MDchanic

Okay, I've owned 2 1968 F/S cars, but not a '67, so I can't tell you this from personal experience, but here's the page from the FBM that shows the relay locations.

You will notice that there is an error: The legends for the second and third illustrations are swapped... Or is it the illustrations themselves?

I believe that the legends are correct, but the titles and illustrations have been swapped as a unit, based on GM's normal habit of placing things in the order: Chebby, Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Cadillac.

You can see the location of the relay in the illustration.

- Eric

Aqua67

Yes, i see what you mean Eric. Due to the fact that this keeps happening randomly and without warning i'm suspecting the ignition relay? However, with the ignition in the "on" position there is power to the fuses. None of the window switches work on any of the doors when this occurs.

MDchanic

The windows aren't powered through fuses, they're powered through a circuit breaker.

Seek the relay.

- Eric

joe_padavano

Because it isn't in the kick panel, it's bolted to the underside of the cowl, roughly above the dimmer switch.

Aqua67

actually it was bolted behind the kick panel but it doesn't matter, cannot find a replacement.

joe_padavano

Any generic Bosch style 40 amp automotive relay will work fine. Connect as follows:

Terminal 85 to ground
Terminal 86 to pink wire
Terminal 30 to orange w/ black stripe
Terminal 87 to red w/ white stripe
Terminal 87a not used

Before wasting any money on a relay, however, temporarily connect the orange and red wires together and see if the windows work. If the still don't work, the problem is not the relay.

Aqua67

i'm confused now...the plug is only 3 prong let me post a photo and see if i'm on the same page as you?

m371961

IIRC the original relay is metal and internally grounded, hence the connection of terminal 85 on the replacement to ground.

Aqua67

Aqua67

are we on the same page?

MDchanic

That's the bugger.

Red is Battery, Orange is power to windows, Pink is Ign (trigger), which energizes the coil and then goes to ground via the relay case.

As Joe said, just replace with a generic 40A SPST "foglight" relay.

- Eric

joe_padavano

Most of the ones you will find are actually SPDT, thus the 87a terminal is not used. And yes, the "fourth" terminal on the original is the metal case bolted to ground.

Aqua67

If red is the battery, then all three prongs should activate the test light with the ignition in the on position and the red does not activate the light?

Aqua67

​​​​​ I should have said that the red wire does not test hot which leaves me stumped because everything else including the breaker does

joe_padavano

And this is why you need to actually read the wiring diagram - which is in the Fisher Body Manual for the power window circuit.

Pink is the trigger wire from the ACC terminal in the fuse box, which is hot with the key in RUN.

Orange w/black stripe is the power feed from the circuit breaker that should be hot at all times.

Red w/white stripe is the feed TO the power window circuit and is not hot until the relay is energized.

Aqua67

yes, I realized that after the fact. It's been a long day my brain is mush. Thanks for your help