Arrowstorm

Back in june, I ordered a set of upper and lower ball joints from Rockauto. They were AC Delco and along with all new steering linkage and stuff, my Brolaw and I installed it all and everything has been honky dory until about 2 weekends ago.

By the GRACE OF GOD, I was pulling into the parking lot and into a spot at the bank when all of a sudden, CLUNK! I felt the car list to starboard and I couldn't move.

I get out to see that wonderful sight in the first picture. A passerby yelled out of his window "Looks like a ball joint!"

So I get underneath and sure enough, the castle nut had STRIPPED right off the post of the lower ball joint.

My question is.... Why? How?!

So I had to leave the car in the parking lot over the weekend because I was literally supposed to leave for Pensacola for a wedding party in an hour. I got back two days later and with a new duralast ball joint in hand, replaced the joint, in the rain, on a busy corner. Lol.

Installing the balljoint, I did exactly what we had did before. Knock out the old one, press in the new one using a jack while hammering a little bit on the lower control arm and then screwing on the castle nut until it reached the hole in which to push the cotter pin, bent the pin, dropped the jack, installed the wheel and I was on my way.

What went wrong with the AC Delco one? Was it just a crappy ball joint? Could we have done something wrong when installing it? the Driver's side ball joint is just fine. No sign of stripping or anything of the sort. ALL joints were lubed very well.

I just don't get it, and I"m left sitting here wondering if the driver's side ball joint is gonna crap out on me... only this time.. I might be going 70mph down the interstate or something. Any ideas?

oldcutlass

Wow, was it over torqued, did you put a cotter pin in, are all the threads stripped, nut too big, taper incorrect? Never seen that happen, I would think that it would have been rattling under there making noise for a while.

Arrowstorm

Didn't make a noise at all, man. Definitely put the cotter pin in, did all the right things. Brolaw is a diesel mechanic and does that stuff all the time.

PLUS, the driver's side was done exactly the same!

Fun71

Remembering how much effort it takes to separate the ball joint from the steering knuckle, I wonder if the stud taper was incorrect?

Isn't that nut supposed to be strong enough to hold everything together? That plus the taper fit of the stud is all that's holding it in place.
And the cotter pin got sheared off? Sounds unlikely but I suppose it's possible.

TripDeuces

It's been over torqued. The threads are stripped

Charlie Jones

Could be too that the nut and / or stud weren't properly hardened. Chinesium?

Trophyblue442

Trip already said it. Over torqued. Seen it done a few times...

Octania

Ah, maybe
I was working on the steering of the 78 Vette being restored recently and found that the nuts did not fit right... at all.... Chinese crap manufacturing I would guess.

You know how a nut and bolt fit, when done right. These were suspicious, and the nut was wobbly on the stud before coming tight. I believe one refused to come tight at all. I chose to re-use the original nuts, which seemed to fit right. I did not have a say in the use of new steering parts vs. good original parts.

oldcutlass

I think the op needs to get in touch with the manufacturer and let them find out if were a manufacturing defect. I'd also change the other side.

TripDeuces

I've seen the same thing Octania.
I do a lot by feel now. If it doesn't feel right from the get go I stop and reevaluate immediately. I can't tell you how many bolts, nuts, etc. I've torqued to failure. You can feel it every time.

oldcutlass

I agree, I've seen mismatched or out of spec fasteners also. My point is how many others will have this problem.

TripDeuces

I know myself and several others here have commented on another thread about parts that just don't fit. Unfortunately I'm beginning to think it's the norm now.

I'm just glad I have the ability to adapt and overcome and just continue on. Unfortunately this thread deals with ball joints which shouldn't be compromised in anyway. When I see threads like this it scares me.
I recently stripped a nut that was on a steering component. At first I thought I was good to go but back tracked and replaced the offending bolt and nut. The problem there was improper instructions. I guess some things just don't translate well.

Arrowstorm

If you jack the lower control arm up a bit while screwing on the castle nut, the taper of the ball joint will rise considerably higher through the steering knuckle than it really needs to be. You can literally almost hand tighten the castle nut if you jack it high enough. That's what we did. That's what I did when I replaced it recently. There was no over-torquing because we could tighten the castle nut down to the hole in the stud and insert the cotter pin with barely any sort of elbow grease involved.

Then you simply drop the jack and the castle nut is resting securely on the knuckle with the cotter pin exactly where it should be.

I'm going to replace the other ball joint this weekend just to be on the safe side. My brolaw and others think that I just got a crappy joint.

MDchanic

Are you saying that you DIDN'T tighten the nuts to a minimum of 70 ft/lbs?

- Eric

joe_padavano

I've had too many bad experiences with AC Delco parts recently. Be aware that they were spun off from GM a few years ago. Most of their parts are either made in Mexico or off-shore.

Arrowstorm

70 ft/lbs against what? If I screw the castle nut down any tighter, the cotter pin will just be going thru the hole nowhere near the castlated portion of the nut, because the nut will be way lower on the shaft.

Did we do it wrong or something? Is the ball joint shaft maybe too long or something?!

TripDeuces

Are you saying you didn't torque it to 70 lb/ft because the cotter pin would have been higher at that point and not going through a notch on the castellated nut?

If that's your logic it's absurd.

Arrowstorm

Incidentally, I haven't driven this car anywhere since that happened...

I'm going to have another look at it today.

Octania

This seems to show a disturbing lack of comprehension how the taper joint fits and works. I detected that earlier when you said the nut was on just enough to get the cotter pin thru. But I did not take that further.

"There was no over-torquing because we could tighten the castle nut down to the hole in the stud and insert the cotter pin with barely any sort of elbow grease involved."

No. The nut MUST be torqued properly, and the tapers must be an exact match, and the taper male part must not extend beyond the nut seat surface of the female part. If the cotter pin hole no longer resides in the castle part of the nut then get a taller castle nut or live with the chance that the nut can loosen and turn because the pin is not fixing it still. There is one proper way to assemble this joint. Anything less than proper is an invitiation to disaster.

"Then you simply drop the jack and the castle nut is resting securely on the knuckle with the cotter pin exactly where it should be...." is so wrong. if the nut was not fully seated secured at 70 ft lbs, and well pinned to the stud part, and the joint MOVED the nut into contact with the female part when jack pressure was relieved- then you had a loose joint and that is what led to the demise of the parts.


"70 ft/lbs against what? If I screw the castle nut down any tighter, the cotter pin will just be going thru the hole nowhere near the castlated portion of the nut, because the nut will be way lower on the shaft." - If the cotter hole ends up above the castle nut, the correct solution is properly made parts, or a taller castle nut. One could theoretically put a proper washer under the nut but then we deviate from proper procedure and that is a bad road to start down, as you see.

Arrowstorm

Octania, I believe you are correct.

I forget that the original owner did lots of modifications to this car, and the front wheels may not be OEM.

I just looked at the original picture of the separation of the knuckle from the ball joint and I can see where that knuckle was resting on the ball joint and if one uses their imagination, one might see that the knuckle would rest on the joint with a considerable length of the shaft sticking out of the top, even with the nut in place.

But that's the joint that AC Delco says is for this car. Long shaft and all. Durlast, too, and all other brands I've seen have a rather long shaft.

So I reckon a few washers against the top of the knuckle and tightening that castle nut down to 70 ft lbs along with the same action for the upper joints AND on the other side is the prescription for this issue AND why it happened in the first place.

Does that sound about right?

MDchanic

First, your brother in law, the diesel mechanic, should never have let you assemble the front end this way.

Second, it is vitally important that you understand the concept of the matching taper that is the actual force-bearing part of this connection:
The tapers on the ball joint shaft and in the steering knuckle hole need to be EXACTLY the same in terms of length and angle, so that the taper seats in the hole PERFECTLY, making full contact with the entire surface of the hole, so that there can be absolutely NO relative movement between the two.
The nut then simply holds the taper in this position against any forces that would tend to push them apart (such as the spring).
Under normal operation, the nut is taking NONE of the forces of steering, cornering, bumps, etc.

You need to be absolutely certain what parts you have, and that they fit together PERFECTLY before you go further.
ANY indication of improper fit, such as the nut crenellations being in the wrong place, is an INSTANT indicator that something is wrong.

As you observed earlier, if you get this wrong, you or someone else could die.
It's all well and good if you go off the highway into a tree - you'll just go to idiot-heaven, with all the people who threw the pin instead of the hand grenade, or tested their gas line connections with a lighted match.
If you take out a school bus full of kids, though, you're going to a very different place indeed.

- Eric

Arrowstorm

I have redone the lower ball joints and torqued the nut down to 70ft/lbs.

The thing about cotter pins is that I was always taught that the pin was supposed to keep the nut from spinning on the shaft.

AS you can see, if this castle nut wanted to spin, that pin isn't going to stop it until the nut gets high enough on the shaft to catch it.

My chassis service manual says nothing about a castle nut, though. It just says "torque the nut to 70ft/lbs and install cotter pin and wham bam thank ye ma'am, you're done".

I'm not going to argue, of course.

And yes.... before, in my ignorance, I tightened the nut only until it reached the hole to insert the pin. But I did that because that's what I <i>thought</i> we did before.

AND.... I only drove it home to get it safe. I've not driven it since.

I will now inspect the driver's side ball joint and possibly replace it as well.

oldcutlass

You need to look at the taper match. If the nut is loosened is the taper holding the joint in place? With the old joint being installed incorrectly, did the joint turn and wear the area inside the tapered hole to the point where the joint is now going in too far?

MDchanic

I agree. That doesn't look right to me.

I've never had a ball joint stud come up high enough to miss the nut - usually, the hole is barely high enough to get the cotter pin through.

- Eric

1970-W30

I bought a set of lower ball joints for my 63 from Kanter and had to use a thick flat washer under the castle nut to keep it up enough to get the cotter pin to fit thru the one of the slots in the castle nut after it was torqued down, i blame it on poor design maybe Chinese?.....

Arrowstorm

I need to amend my previous post.

On the driver's side ball joint, the nut IS torqued to 70lbs, and so we must have done the same with the passenger's side. I don't believe that we installed it incorrectly. It was my ignorant self that installed it incorrectly when I went to do the repair to get it out of that parking lot.

But as you can see on the driver's side joint that we did back in june, the cotter pin still doesn't really pass thru the crenelations of the nut. (I"m sorry, that's the best pic I could get)

I could remove both nuts now if I wanted to, and there is no play in the joint or anything. The taper is correct as far as I can tell. It doesn't wobble in there or anything like that.

I feel the need to point out that several of the GM "how to replace balljoint videos" I have seen, the castle nuts they're using do seem a bit "taller".

Arrowstorm

I was thinking of using a washer. One washer that one might use for intake manifold bolts would definitely do the trick...

Octania

"nut crenellations"
there's a term you don't get to use every day!
well, most of us.
hats off to your vocabulary, and thanks for teaching that one

And, MAnic MDchanic, thank you for that proper, concise, succinct explanation of the intricacies of the tapered joint. You explained it better than I could have.

As for the car in question, I would be afraid that if it came loose, and was driven that way, the female taper is fubar'd and the spindle should be replaced.

The nut looks short, like that used on steering joints.
This sort of thing really makes you appreciate factory original parts that fit right and work right. Right?

For further info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellated_nut

"A castellated nut, also called a castle nut or slotted nut, is a nut with slots (notches) cut into one end.[1] The name comes from the nut’s resemblance to the crenellated parapet of a medieval castle.

The bolt or axle has one or two holes drilled through its threaded end. The nut is torqued properly and then, if the slot is not aligned with the hole in the fastener, the nut is rotated forward to the nearest slot. The nut is then secured with a split pin, R-clip or safety wire. It is a positive locking device.[1]

Castellated nuts are used in low-torque applications, such as holding a wheel bearing in place.[1]"

Fun71

Reading this made me remember that I keep all the old castle nuts in my tool box. I think a time or two I over the years I have used one of the old ones as the new one didn't seem to fit correctly.