MDchanic

10:1 is tighter than almost any American car through the eighties, much more like a European car.

12.7:1 is about the way most modern cars and light trucks are set up. If you've ever driven a JGC or Cherokee (most lists show the boxes interchanging between the two), or an S10 pickup, or a small Blazer/Bravada, they're all in that range.

16 or 17:1 is like American cars of the sixties and seventies - almost but not quite like driving a bus, and with zero-effort, one-finger steering, even while parking.

Higher than that is like manual steering boxes in older American cars, and is just like driving a bus - you've got to hand-over-hand when making a 90° turn.



You're missing the fact that while these numbers provide the illusion of objectivity, they are not necessarily reliable, and, objective as they may be, they cannot describe your subjective feeling while driving, which is what you are trying to improve.

Like it or not, it is a trial and error process. The ideal trial and error system would allow you to find a local person who's installed one of these boxes in a similar car and let you take it 'round the block. It might help you to look at the ClassicOlds member map and see whether there's someone near you whose car you could try out.

- Eric

joe_padavano

We also regularly find glaring errors when calling vendor tech lines, including those of reputable Oldsmobile parts purveyors. How well DO those headers fit Supremes?

For example, even Fusick still shows that 2261 motor mounts only fit small blocks (despite also being correct for 1965-68 cars with factory BBO installations) or that 2328s only fit 69-72 with BBO (despite also fitting all motors from 1973-up). Even worse, they show the "BBO" frame pads as fitting 1968-72 when the factory use was 1969-72. Their motor mount listings for the full size cars are equally incorrect.

Toms cutlass

12.7:1 ratio desired. Was about to purchase a JGC rebuilt, but given all of the precautionary advice, finding a genuine & authentic 12.7:1 rebuilt gear for my application is apparently elusive.

MDchanic

You could always measure the ratio to confirm its the box you want, when you get it.

You'd need one or two degree wheels (you'd probably have to open up the hole in one to fit over the pitman arm shaft).
Clamp the unit in a vise (the effort required to turn it will make the whole procedure easier if its clamped), measure the exact number of degrees lock to lock of the input shaft, then measure the exact number of degrees lock to lock of the output shaft and divide.
Then let us know, because everyone else has been too lazy to do that so far.

- Eric

joe_padavano

I was going to suggest the same thing. You really only need one degree wheel or protractor. Turn the input shaft two full turns. Measure the degrees that the pitman shaft turns.

For 720 degrees of rotation on the input shaft, a 12.7:1 ratio box will turn the pitman shaft about 57 degrees. A 16:1 box will turn 45 degrees, and a 17.5:1 about 41 degrees (though that will vary somewhat depending on where in the variable ratio you are).

Frankly, you should be able to discern 57 degrees vs 45 degrees without a protractor.

MDchanic

That's why I suggested measuring the whole range - at least you get an average.


You would think, but the one time I tried to do this myself, the steering box's shape was so visually complex, that even holding up a protractor, I didn't feel confident deciding on a particular number of degrees - when it's right in front of you, it's a bit hard to focus on the shaft and a landmark at the same time.

- Eric

oddball

It's even easier! An A-body box needs 87 degree pitman swing, which is awfully close to 90 degrees, so just measure lock to lock and make sure the pitman keyways line up appropriately.

joe_padavano

You are missing the point. The question was how to find the ratio of any random Saginaw box. The one in question was from a Jeep Grand Cherokee. The internal stops and available pitman shaft rotation are different for each application.

jerzy

really got confused reading the several most recent [february] posts in this thread... perhaps i could get a dumbed-down advice instead....

i just purchased a very nice '69 442, largely factory stock...
among the few few issues it does have that needs addressing asap, it does have significant steering play and gets really squirrelly at freeway speeds when hitting a rough patch of pavement/potholes...

i definitely need a new steering box, possibly replaced/rebuilt other suspension components as well... for now i want to start with the steering box and see where that will get me with regards to steering response/control, and keep upgrading or not, as needed...
the steering effort in this car is lighter than any i've ever owned, and i had some of the largest '70s landyachts and drove for car/limo radio service in nyc back in '80s [mainly late 70s and early '80s lincolns, caddies and olds 88s]... i hate it...

thus i want to upgrade to a quality quicker ratio box with a better 'road feel'... i've read this entire thread and a few other threads on other sites; including the info on swapping/upgrading to quicker ratio boxes posted on 442.com [ http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofstr.htm ] , which i understand that joe p. heavily contributes to....
still am in the dark as far as choosing the right steering box as a replacement...

i've checked out different steering boxes offered [fitting the '69 442] by opgi, carid.com, year one and summit racing...
they range wildly in price even though i'm unable to always tell the justification for a significant price difference between 2 or more boxes made/rebuilt by the same manufacturer, just going by descriptions and info given alone...

i'm a long time quadriplegic in a wheelchair so i'll have someone and/or a shop doing all the work for me...

could i get a straight up recommendation for a specific steering box [or the best top 2 or 3] available from those sources which would offer pretty much a straight drop-in/bolt-on swap and high quality/solid dependability...
i'm looking to get a more modern type of a control so significantly reduced number of turns lock-to-lock and a bit more 'resistance' in steering effort... i don't want to go the full r&p rack conversion but still want much improved control/performance....

i am on a limited budget indeed, however, when it comes to crucial safety components such as steering i'm willing to spend bucks, even at the very high spectrum of those prices, as long as i would indeed get me the proportional increase in quality/dependability and performance....

i'm assuming, purchasing a high quality, remanufactured, fully blueprinted, high perf box intended to replace the factory '69 442 box, is much preferable to going the budget route like the jgc box swap which much of this thread is devoted to....

i'd very much appreciate any informed, experience based advice... much more so even, if followed by a bit of explanation/justification for choices recommended....
thanks....

Toms cutlass

Like you, after reading all of the many confusing and conflated posts on all of the relevant forums, this is what I did for a 1970 Cutlass Supreme Conv't.(w/power steering, tilt column & sport wheel):

1.) Bought Borgeson #800220 12.7:1 quick ratio power steering gear. Direct swap of OE gear in fit and appearance. (Bought on Amazon @ $255 - retails for $320+. No core charge; keep OE gear.) 3-year warranty. Borgeson is high-quality, been in business for over 100 years. Endorsements and affiliations - check website. The gear comes with Borgeson brass adapter fittings to allow the OE power steering hoses to connect properly, and the adapters are not visible so the connections look stock. (Is your '69 power steering?) I chose 12.7:1 constant ratio gear as this is what is on later model GMs. I was concerned that 10:1 may be too twitchy.
2.) Bought OE replacement power steering hoses.
3.) Bought Lares reman. power steering pump (Rock Auto - $75 including core charge). The current pump is a reman. installed 30 years ago; the bearing was starting to chirp.
4.) Bought new rag joint (3/4" - 30 spline) to fit the Borgeson input shaft. (OE size rag joint is 13/16" input.)
5.) Bought new intermediate shaft grommet to rebuild (and re-grease) the pot joint at the upper end of the intermediate steering shaft (opposite end of rag joint on intermediate shaft). The rubber grommet is typically dried out, and the grease inside the joint is as well.
6. Bought new bearing kit for the lower steering column connection (just above the pot joint at the base of the steering column). This joint always had "play" from the factory, and even more so after use.

Installation in progress ...

Also like you, I was looking for more responsive steering in all phases of driving (slow, parking and highway), and I was not looking for a cheap way to get better steering. I'm confident that I'll be pleased with the result.

*The steering linkages are all new on the vehicle: upper/lower ball joints, inner/outer tie rods, center link, idler, stabilizer bar bushings and links.

joe_padavano

The first problem is that until you replace the worn parts in the steering, the "feel" will be horrible.

The second problem is that there are multiple things that affect steering feel, not just the steering box ratio. The single biggest change you can make to improve steering feel costs nothing. Simply increase steering caster from the stock -1 degree to about -4 degree. This will make a dramatic difference in steering feel and is the main difference between old and new cars. Increased caster causes increased steering centering force, and since older cars were available with manual steering, smaller caster settings were used to reduce the steering effort with manual steering. New cars all come with power steering, so increased caster can be used to improve steering feel.

Changing the steering box ratio changes the quickness of the steering, but not necessarily the effort or feel. Too quick a box and result in a "darty" feeling car. The torsion bar inside the box is what controls the amount of power assist and thus the "feel". Small torsion bars twist more than larger ones for a given effort on the steering wheel, which opens the boost valve more and increases the amount of power assist. You want a larger torsion bar for improved feel.

Ultimately, it is the combination of these factors, plus things like tire type and size, wheel offset (that changes scrub radius), and toe-in that determines "feel".

jerzy

thanks tom... seems like a complete set up... i definitely am familiar with borgeson, had many of their components used on my previous rides, including on my ex-'36 stude cpe hotrod's r&p rack... most parts sansa the rack itself was borgeson in fact...
yes mine is a p/steering optioned car as well, i believe i mentioned it in my post....
please update once you're done installing and had the chance to drive around a bit...

i'm planning to get work [starting with the steering box] started on my 442 within the next 4-6 weeks, which means i need to have the box within a month...already have a shop lined up and an alternative guy to do this for me [if the shop might have a too long queue for such work once i'm ready with funds next month]....

if i don't get any other recommendations/suggestions which might be more optimal for me meanwhhile, i might very likely just go with your full set up tom, as described above in your post...
so please update this install with more info, any hiccups [if at all], etc...
thanks...cheers....

jerzy

hi joe, thanks for your input...
forgive the 'abbreviation' of your post in my 'quote'... as long as it hasn't been made several posts earlier, i always try to shorten the 'quote' function so others won't have to do the extra scrolling; which i myself find very annoying when others 'quote' entire posts...

right....
well, i absolutely need the replacement steering box to start with regardless....
the loose play in my wheel/column is atrocious; about 1/8 turn each way
of the wheel from 'centered' before there's even any steering response... it'll actually turn that much even with ignition off [no power assist] without any effect on the tracking/wheels....

i considered that maybe some slight adjustment in the box might at least improve this somewhat but in light of how much play there is there's no way an adjustment will help in any significant way....

no, the first thing that needs addressing is the replacement of the steering box...
i had a very high sudden sphincter factor driving this car back on i-80 at around 70-75mph, from a disability vendor after they installed a set of hand controls for me, and since i already need to replace the box anyway, i might as well go with an improved, quicker steering ratio and quality box...
i hit a patch of bad pavement and couldn't correct the car back easily at all due to that play in the steering... in fact i drifted into the right, adjacent lane by nearly 50% before i managed to get back into mine [after then getting awfully close tto the solid center divider when i overcorrected in the other direction, that's how slow the response is] and if there were another vehicle in that lane to the right of me a sphincter factor would have been the least of my woes....

therefore, i would really like some solid recommendations regarding whiich box[-es] are really worth getting and which are inferior....
i'm willing to go as far as $800+ for a box itself but only as long as it will offer a proportional value in reliability, safety and performance...
also, a recommendation of what else i should purchase which is considered a standard parts set [hoses, valves, brackets, etc?] when swapping-in another steering box....


joe... now, once i'm done with that steering box replacement i'll certainly will want to gradually improve the handling/suspension as well...

so, i'll see how much improvement i will get with the steering box replacement and will address other issues and/or front end suspension components as needed....
most likely i'll utilize your steering caster adjustment suggestion first...

i'm assuming you're talking about the front wheels' caster alignment, correct?.... that's the only caster i'm aware of, the wheels, not within some part of suspension elsewhere...
i might likely hit you up again about a bit more info regarding this once i have a new box in the car so it's much safer to drive....

i also love the '70s type rake/stance on the '68-'72 a-bodies so i'll want to do a less radical version of it but still to raise the 442's *** a bit hiigher than currently [pretty much a factory stance right now], by 2"-3" and the front by another inch perhaps...
then, immediately follow up with wider and taller rear rubber to fill-in the gap in the wheel wells; i will retain the stock ss2 mags, however, because i always loved those olds only wheels; just wish they came in 15" and wider than 7"....
yeah, yeah, i know..lower stance equals better handling but i love the traditional, mean 'street machine' look as i grew up with it...

next will likely be slightly smaller diameter steering wheel [partial to wood] - also, because the current factory one impedes my ingress/egress by hitting top of my thighs....
then beefier sway bars front and rear....
finally a gear vendors over/underdrive unit to be able to swap-in lower gears yet still keep the a/c [i'm unable to sweat], but this along with entire powertrain upgrade is still distant on my horizon at present...maybe the next year....

at this point i really would like just an enlightened/experienced suggestion or recommendation with regards to which steering boxes are tops for my ride, as well as, what else i should purchase along with the box for a complete install...


i didn't want to clatter up my post with several links but if it'll help to make a suggestion, i can certainly paste links to several steering boxes i've been looking at...
thank you...
cheers.....

MDchanic

i hate to say this, but that really sounds like a badly worn pitman arm / center link / tie rods, rather than a steering box.

- Eric

Toms cutlass

jerzy, if your steering linkages are original or otherwise worn, you should replace those worn parts first before replacing the steering gear and related steering shaft components.

Toms cutlass

jerzy, I have multiple projects going simultaneously, so i can't assure you that I'll be done and have the car test driven within your timetable.

jerzy

crap... i'll have to change the strategy then...
rather than just buy the box and any other parts for the swap, i'll have to bring the car to an auto shop to have the exact issue - or issues - diagnosed first, before deciding to purchase and replace any parts....

i'll be the first to admit i'm not very knowledgable about this stuff...it's been too long [been paralyzed since 1990] since i've been even able to work on my bikes/cars...
i googled 'very loose steering play' and a couple of variations of that phrase, added '69 oldsmobile 442' to it, and most results pointed to '70s gm a-body car forums which had threads on such subject... most diagnosed it as bad steering box...

now, a long time 442 enthusiast, well respected for his knowledge and experience even here on this forum, who helped me out greatly while i was searching for that one 442 that's right for me, did not think it was likely a steering box issue and he suggested it's likely a front end and suspension components problem, like you guys do....
however, he's been going through some personal loss very recently and i don't want to waste his time with my car issues at present while he needs to get himself over this grief, etc...

i then called up and discussed this steering problem with a hot roddin' good friend of mine, who's a shadetree mechanic and a gearhead since his youth back in early '70s [although a very good one and he kept all my rides in top running shape for the past 15 yrs until his very recent move down to sc], and he thought it's most likely a steering box issue...

lastly, i had a guy - both of my pal sons' friend - who's local to me, drive my car last sunday and he realized that i wasn't exaggerating about that loose steering at all after he drove it, just on local roads at 40-45mph...he now also thinks it's a steering box...
he's much younger than i am but he does work on his car and changed most of the components on it himself so he's much more savvy than i am on this subject, especially since he has and worked on another '68-'72 gm a-body for so long... btw, he has a '71 or '72 [never asked him about the year] buick gs350 which he has had as his daily high school ride for the past 20 years...he made it into a hi-perf gsx clone with just about everything replaced, incl, engine, drivetrain, suspension/frame, etc...
it's a 600hp, torque monster badass street ride with a hopped-up buick 455 mill, he replaced his steering box to a hi-perf quick ration as well and he was also going to find out for me where he got his box and who remanufactured/blueprinted it...
he also offered to do the swap for me if the local auto shop might not be able to do this anytime soon [they're very busy]...

i was pretty much certain at this point thiis is definitely a steering box issue primarily, wth very likely some additional smaller issues with front suspension...

however, in light of the replies here - and the 442 enthusiast/friend's suggestion - i now see that i must first make sure the main issue with steering is diagnosed properly....
i just hope that this [relatively] local to me hi-perf auto shop will be able to take my ride in asap and do the diagnose/repair accordingly so...
i'll update these posts of mine here, once i have this issue licked...i don't often login here, however, so please 'quote' one one my posts here and ask for an update if i'll forget to do this and won't post anything in, say, 2 months or so; if anyone's interested about the outcome... this way i should then get a notification via e-mail as a reminder that someone referred to my post here...

by then i need to have the entire handling/loose play issue[s] fixed since this is my daily, and only, ride....

thanks guys, much obliged - jerzy....

Toms cutlass

I think everyone is offering you consistent advice. Having someone check for worn steering linkage parts (particularly inner & outer tie rods, center link, idler arm and lower ball joints) is really your best and most prudent strategy to knowing what their condition is, particularly for the safety concerns that you originally posted. If some of those relatively inexpensive parts need to / should be replaced, it could easily be done at the same time as a replacement steering gear and related steering shaft components.

This is not to say that you wouldn't notice a difference with a quick ratio (like a 12.7:1) steering gear. Simply stated, the quicker ratio means that for 12.7 degrees turn of the steering wheel, the output side of the gear (the pitman arm side) turns 1 degree. Compare this ratio to your current ratio which is perhaps anywhere from 14:1, 16:1 or 20:1. You have to turn your steering wheel significantly more to get 1 degree of movement to the tires, even more so if your steering linkages and/or steering shaft/column components are worn and sloppy. Changing the gear along with any worn steering linkage and shaft/column component parts (and a proper alignment when it's done) will make you happy.

BTW you have a really nice '69 442.

jerzy

yeah, i will change to quick ratio eventually regardless... most of my past rides had either a r&p rack [some manual some powered] or a p/steering quick ratio box at least, except the few huge land boats i had; the latter, mostly before i was a cripple....

also, i had a '68 cutlass as my daily beater for 8 years, until 2011, with a hi-perf hopped-up 455 mill swapped into it [and other upgrades to drivetrain, etc] and it had a quicker ratio box as well... it was a huge difference between this new 442 of mine and that car...

however, at present the main focus is to make this 442 safe and fully drivable before i'll get to changing its components and appearance to suit my preferences... i'm glad i logged in here and posted in this thread... i convinced myself that the main iissue was the box and it would've been foolish to order an expensive high-perf box, pay to have it replaced, only to potentially find that the car still has that loose play in the steering wheel...

hmmm, i haven't posted any pics of that new 442 tom... i haven't taken any, i'll wait with that until it's in full safe running condition for daily driving duties, including the slightly more agressive stance/rake and wider, taller rubber to fill-in those rear wells/fenders...
however, here are a few pics of it as it was being delivered to me a few weeks back, rolling out of the trailer....

and several taken prior to my purchase of it, by a gentleman who thoroughly inspected it on my behalf...
he wasn't aware of the fact that i intended to buy it with daily duties in mind but rather as a collector ride, to be pampered and seldom driven, that's why he simply missed some of those issues...
the car has 117k original miles on its clock and i'm still satisfied with its purchase after all...

[if you right-click on each miniature in this post and choose 'open in new tab/window', then click on each as it displays separately, they'll display in full resolution....

thanks - jerzy...

Toms cutlass

I thought the pics of the red car in your public profile album was the car ... on closer inspection, that one is a "Cutlass" not a 4-4-2. The 4-4-2 in these pics is very nice as well. You'll definitely enjoy it with steering that is more responsive and better handling.

JCMC64

Any updates?

jerzy

sorry, haven't logged in here since that last post about 3 years ago...

[EDIT: not sure if you were asking about my updates since i piggy-backed my issue onto an existing thread but since i was the last one thus far to post about a front end problem i answered below for myself]...

soon after it, i got taken for about $4k by a 'mechanic' who was recommended to me by a friend... he was supposed to rebuild the front end, fix the a/c [i'm unable to sweat so a/c's a must for me], make the car run smoothly as it was running way too rich and general major tune up...
basically all he did was to send the q-jet to a reputable carb/q-jet rebuilder and then - unbeknownst to me - he left my car at his local gas station shop... i only found out about it later through a friend of the friend who recommended that clown to me after he saw a couple of young mechanics or mechanic's helpers joy ride in my car while doing burn outs on a street during lunchtime... he recognized my ride immediately because of the unusual white/parchment interior with black hood stripes on red body and saw them pull into the gas station... he asked what is that car doing there and then found out that the 'mechanic' who was supposed to work on it at his own shop [later it turned out he lost that shop in bankruptcy 2 years before but never mentioned that fact to my friend or me] just dropped the car off there with some work instructions... the carb rebuild was around $700 and change, basically nothing else was done for 3 months, except a rebuilt a/c compressor was installed but the a/c still barely works...

in a nutshell, i was charged around $4,300 for this and didn't found the whole story until i paid him already... actually i'm not sure about the q-jet being properly rebuilt [i do have an invoice for it from the rebuilder though] because car still has major issues with fuel delivery i think... it will die suddenly after 45-60 minutes of driving and then will need to rest for about that long before it will restart, i don't believe it's a vapor lock issue either...
that douche has everything in his wife's name ever since bankruptcy so i couldn't even taken him to small claims court, besides, i don't have energy/strength for such hassle...

i had $5k saved up for potential work on my 442 after i bought it and this a-hole pretty much took all of my budget into his pocket for next to no work...i live solely on a meager disability income so it really screwed me up, to this day all i managed to save up is $1.8k total towards repairs...

my 442 now has more issues that need to be fixed [i put less than 600 miles on it in these 3 years] such as overheating and possibly a differential problem because it seems that the posi [anti spin] function no longer works...
and of course the front end et al. still needs to be done...i'm trying to find a reliable, honest mechanic/shop in my immediate area [northeastern nj] who understands oldsmobiles and would be willing to do the most pressing repairs/ work...i initially got really depressed about getting screwed like that and my health is really poor and deteriorating so the purchase of this ride hasn't exactly been a positive point in my life to be honest...it's my only car and it barely works...

so here's that update you inquired about...

if anyone can solidly [with experience not just hearsay please] recommend an olds savvy mechanic/shop in northeast nj [bergen county] area or in ny state close to the nj border, i'd be grateful...