71 OLDS

So it’s not exactly on the level of the 2008 financial crisis but it’s a sad tale none the less! I’m referring to the B-body spindle “kit” for a 68-72 GM A-body that was all the rage and had quite the sales pitch going back to around the turn of the millennium. My 1971 Olds 442 stock suspension geometry puts the front wheels like this (if you look at the car from the front): \ / The problem with that (as the sales pitch went) is the car is already “set up to lean” before you even go into a corner. Want to see a video that shows that lean? Here you go. Watch the slow motion part going in and out of the cones. Note the top of the tires are leaning “into” the turn before the turn even starts. Love this video BTW – basically my car but with black stripes, top, and green interior. OK and it’s a W-30 (mine is “just” a 442) but it’s a great video to show what the stock suspension does on hard corners. This is how I drive my car ALL THE TIME in case you were wondering!! 


Over a decade ago the big “fix” for this was to go with the B-body spindle “upgrade” which of course also required you to get aftermarket upper control arms and oh while you’re at it you might as well upgrade to bigger brakes. But of course you need bigger rims/wheels to fit those bigger rotors since my stock 14 or even 15” repro wheels can’t hold a 13” rotor. There just isn’t enough room. So if you’re like me maybe 15 years ago you bought B-body spindles, upper control arms from say Hotchkis or Global West, plus why not get the lower tubular control arms too, then a nice set of 4 wheel disc brakes from Baer or Wilwood for example (let’s say 13” front and 12” rear – most weren’t doing 14” rotors back then). Then to fit these big breaks you probably upgraded to let’s say a nice set of 18” wheels maybe 18x8 front and 18x10 rear with some wide tires to help with both cornering and traction in the rear. Maybe 255s front and 305s rear. And let’s throw in some nice sway bars front and rear, better springs or coilovers, and some high end adjustable shocks…oh yeah and a quick ratio steering box for good measure.

After all that you would think you are ready to take your 4,000 lb car and compete in the corners with the new Mustangs, Corvettes, Camaros….might as well throw in Nissan 350Zs and even Porches too….but is that really the case?

The problem is what no one told us back then is all the negatives that came with that first piece of the puzzle – the B-body spindles!! It felt like the car was cornering much better but was that just the wider rims/tires with smaller side walls, stiffer springs, better shocks, and meaty sway bars not to mention my quick ratio steering box? It feels like I can corner better but something doesn’t feel quite right when I REALLY get into a corner hard. Plus doing U-turns or even parking the car felt like something was slightly off. Hmmm maybe it’s just the alignment isn’t quite right. There are lots of aftermarket parts on there. Getting the alignment perfect will take some trial and error right? Or maybe it’s the bigger tires? After all the car just went from 14 or 15 all the way up to 18” right? What I tell myself is at least I know my suspension geometry is good now because the B-body spindles make the car look like this: / \ from the front now so going into a turn the car isn’t already set up for leaning like it was stock (in the video) but…..what we were NOT told over a decade ago about the B-body spindles was all the negatives:

1. They are really heavy – about 14 or 15 lbs. each!
Here's a pic of the stock spindle set up (top) vs B-body bottom - you can see it's taller but also much heavier than stock:

kl0I3mD.jpg

2. Even with the custom upper tubular control arms, the steering arms put the tie rod ends in the wrong location – meaning an A-body car like my 71 442 starts out with massive bump steer (about 1.5” of total toe change over 6” of suspension travel) caused by the vertical misalignment of the outer tie rod ends.
3. The steering arms are also 1” longer than stock. This slows down the final steering ratio making the turning radius much larger. So trying to make U-turns in my 442 isn’t as easy as it should be and that 12.7:1 quick ratio AGR box I spent $500 on doesn’t feel very quick!!
4. Then there is the Ackerman error – which is a fancy name for something that causes a lazy turn in when cornering and more tire squeal when you’re just slowly trying to park your car. Apparently the B-body spindles make that worse too.

The bottom line is the B-body spindle conversion actually DOES improve the suspension geometry of our old muscle cars but it adds weight, trashes the steering geometry, steering ratio, and Ackerman.

So what are we (those of us with 68-72 GM A-body cars that have the B-body conversion) supposed to do now or what options do we have if any? I have spent lots of time researching this and spent several hours talking to Mark Savitske at SC&C. As a matter of fact I “stole” most of the details here either from our conversation or from info I found online or on his website. To be clear this is NOT an advertisement for him and I don’t work for his company!! Haha… Just putting it out there. I’m sure some of this written here is not 100% correct but I think most of it is pretty close. Here are the options available today as I understand it:

Option 1: Do nothing and live with the known issues of the B-Body spindles. I think there are lots of us out there that have been doing this for years anyway. Obviously the cars can be driven like this. It’s just sad the lack of performance for what we paid.

Option 2: The cheaper “fix” is to go back to your stock spindles and go with a taller ball joint (instead of taller spindle) for the suspension geometry improvement but if you already have moved to the b-body spindles you will then have the wrong upper control arms and your rotors won’t fit. Did you keep all that stuff from over a decade ago? I certainly didn’t. Plus I would feel like I was going backwards to start putting all the stock 1971 parts back on but apparently if you do it in combo with the taller ball joint it will be better than the B-body spindle option. How sad is that? Make sure you get more details for this option if you go there because there’s more to it than just the taller ball joints but since I’m not going to do this option I didn’t investigate much further.

Option 3: The best option as far as I can tell and of course the much more expensive option is to go with the AFX spindles (replacing the B-body spindle), compatible adjustable tubular upper arms (replacing your Hotchkis or GW B-body compatible arms), and then swap out your B-body rotors for a set of AFX compatible rotors. All for the low, low cost of about 3 grand (around $2k for the spindle kit and control arms and another grand for the Baer 13” GT rotors that go with the AFX spindles)!!

So for $3k what benefits would you get?:

1. The AFX spindles are aluminum and only 3 lbs. each!! How about dropping 7 lbs. off of each side (aluminum spindle is much lighter but hub is heavier. Net drop is 7 lbs from B-body to AFX spindle including the hub)?
2. The AFX spindles give you the same improved suspension geometry as the B- body spindles {so using the old sale pitch / \ explanation above – the car is NOT set up to lean into the corners like it is with the factory suspension (\ /)}
3. The steering arm mounting holes have been relocated for near zero bumpsteer
4. The kit for my 71 442 would include the factory 68-72 GM A body steering arms not the 1” longer ones that caused some of the issues with the b-body spindles.
5. All kinds of other nice features can be found explained on the SC&C site with their “street comp” kit.

Bottom line is “have your cake and eat it too” for lots of $$$. You get the suspension geometry and steering geometry solved with one set up. Very little car lean in corners, near zero bumpsteer, and greatly improved steering . That 12.7:1 steering box should REALLY feel like a quick ratio now. No more lazy turn-ins when doing hard cornering or squealing tires when you’re parking your car and let’s not forgot the 22 lb. drop in weight for the front end!!

For all of us with the B-body setups still on our beloved muscle cars, is it worth the $3k price tag? Hmmmm?? I guess that depends on each one of us and how much we care about cornering/steering. I’ve read about several guys with the B-body setup that say they don’t notice any issues. I like to corner REALLY hard in my car and it always felt like something was not right but I thought the alignment might be slightly off or maybe my 12 year old AGR steering box just needed to be rebuilt or replaced. After learning about all this stuff I now understand all the negative steering geometry issues I’ve been experiencing. I’m leaning toward dropping the $3k and seeing if I can really have my 442 corner like a Porsche!! Actually I’ve never driven a Porsche but my wife’s car is a 2004 Nissan 350Z. If my 71 442 could corner, turn, make U turns and feel as good as it does, I would be a happy man!!

Sorry for the long post but I thought this might be helpful for others. I couldn’t find one place that really broke all this down so I figured I would write it all out myself. It actually helps with trying to make my decision for dropping all that $$$.

Oh cough cough….anyone want to buy a complete B-body kit for a 68 -72 GM Abody? Will be selling my B-body spindles, Hotchkis tubular upper control arms, & Baer 13” rotors as a set once I make the change!! 

-Joe

Olds64

Joe, that's interesting. I never knew there were aftermarket kits available for the A body Cutlass that used B body suspension parts. I assume this spindle was from the B body 91-96 Chevy Caprice / Impala and not an earlier B body?

FWIW, have you considered spending the $3000 on a used Camaro or Firebird that will handle better than an A body Cutlass pretty much any day of the week? True, you can get aftermarket parts to pretty much do anything but I never even considered that an A body Cutlass could handle as well as a Camaro / Firebird much less a Porsche.

joe_padavano

I have to correct some misinformation in this thread. First, the B-body spindle swap was conceived by Ken Croce at H.O. Racing back in the late 1970s and publicized in all the magazines in the early 1980s. The shortcomings have been well known since then.

At the time, this was the ONLY alternative for improved handling on the A-body cars. The shortcomings have been pretty well documented, and there are far better alternatives available today. The whole point of the swap was that the taller spindles improved the camber curve of the suspension over the suspension travel, thus improving cornering. The added disc brake swap was another advantage.

The major shortcomings were 1) the fact that the taller spindle required excessively thick shim packs in the upper control arms to achieve proper wheel alignment. This frequently was a problem with big blocks and especially with headers as the upper control arm cross shafts often hit the exhaust. 2) the fixed steering arms on the B-body spindles were in the wrong place for the A-body steering and caused significant bump steer. 3) the only rotors with the 5x4.75" bolt circle that fit these spindles were the same 11" diameter as the stock A-body disk brakes. The HD brake versions of the spindles came with 12" rotors (not 13" - the integral caliper mounts preclude anything larger) but those were only made in a 5 x 5" bolt circle. They DID come from the factory with 15" wheels, however.

Global West and Hotchkis both released shortened upper control arms to address the shim pack problem. Of course, these added about $500 to the "low cost" swap.

GW and Hotchis also released adjustable outer tie rod ends to mitigate the bump steer problem. These included tapered standoffs that went in the steering arms and allowed the outer tie rod pivot point to be relocated as needed. Of course, this required use of a bump steer gauge to properly adjust the adjustable tie rods. Few people did this.

The release of the 1LE Camaro suspension package finally made available 12" rotors that fit the HD B-body spindles and had a 5 x 4.75" bolt circle. This is the common fix for using the HD B-body spindles on A-body cars, as the 1LE rotors bolt right on. They also clear 15" wheels.

JohnnyBs68S

Good post on the pitfalls of the "not-so-old-school" solution using B-body (or even F-body) "tall" spindles to fix the negative roll-center flaw of the A-body front suspension. I first read about this "fix" back in the '80s, and had always planned on doing it to my car, but never got around to it due to "life" (kids, divorce, etc.). In retrospect, "procrastination pays".


I too have recently discovered the write-ups on the preferred "tall ball joint" solution praised by the folks at SCC. Not only does that address the negative roll-center flaw (I'm always dismayed by how far up the sidewalls of my tires road-scrub occurs), but it does it without screwing up the bump-steer situation. By retaining the factory spindles, you don't have to bite-off the brake + wheel upgrades all at the same time (disc-brake kits for drum-brake spindles exist). I'm looking forward to upgrading my front suspension / brakes / wheels a bit at a time.


However, I do think that your expecting your A-body to handle like a new Camaro / Mustang is a bit optimistic. Torsional stiffness is key to "handles like its on rails" performance, something that no body-on-frame car can hope to achieve, regardless of what is done to the suspension components.

71 OLDS

I disagree with this. There are lots of examples of 68-72 GM A body's that can keep up and and even out perform a newer sports cars. They can be setup to pull 1G or better but....how much time, work, and money has to be put into the car to accomplish this? Here's a nice example of a 72 Chevelle holding it's own:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3OP...ature=youtu.be

Would it be cheaper or easier to start with a totally different car that can already handle better stock? Sure but I'm driving my dream car so it's not going to change. Also the other issue is if you build a 68 -72 GM A body to pull 1G, can it still drive well on the street? How about 1/4 mile performance? It's all about the compromise of giving up in one area to gain in another. But per this thread starting with an "ideal" suspension and steering geometry is a much better way to improve corners and handling rather than just trying to put heavy springs, sway bars, and fat tires with the tiny sidewalls (30 series for example). All would be great for hard corners but not so great on the street or 1/4 mile track.

71 OLDS

Here's a 68 Chevelle as an example:

http://www.superchevy.com/features/1...olet-chevelle/


Note towards the end of this article the comparison to a 2015 Camaro SS - not too bad for the Chevelle all things considered.

How’d It Stack Up?
Slalom Average Speed Skidpad Lateral g’s Road Course Lap Time
1968 Chevelle 46.3 mph 0.87 g 1:54.89
3,831 Pounds
2015 Camaro SS 1LE 47.2 mph 0.96 g 01:53.7
3,866 Pounds

RROLDSX

I put drag bags in the rear of my A body that signicantly reduced body roll plus allowed me to adjust my stance. They have the added bonus of helping with traction for which they are originally installed for. A fella in a Mustang once followed me through a curve at speed and commented on how well my car cornered compared to his Mustang.

71 OLDS

Here' another 68 Chevelle that does it all. Pulls over 1G and is a 10 second car. This guy Brent Jarvis does all kinds of custom work and tweaks to the entire car - far beyond just off the shelf suspension upgrades. This car shows what can be done to a 68 - 72 GM A body:

http://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/

Here's a video of him driving it:

71 OLDS

How about some donuts?

71 OLDS

Update: Just purchased:

**Street comp AFX spindle kit from SC&C that includes the forged aluminum AFX tall spindle with C7 Corvette hub and bearing pack, stock A body steering arms, and adjustable upper controls arms - will be going with the "aggressive street" settings/alignment.

**Baer GT 13" GT rotors that are compatible with the AFX Spindles

**Lee 800 steering box 12.7:1 at 1275 psi to match my hydroboost and current pump

**SC&C heavy duty tubular chassis brace to help "triangulate" the front frame horns to improve steering response and chassis stiffness - this was a must with my convertible and the entire front end being fiberglass (fenders, bumper, and hood) - needed something for additional support. The frame and glass panels deflect and move too much right now plus the steering box is just hanging out there imparting all it's steering load on just one frame rail. This chassis brace will eliminate all these issues.

My B-body spindles, Baer 13" track rotors, Hotchkis B-body compatible upper control arms, and my 12 year old leaking AGR steering box will all be coming off.

therobski

I would have go through my notes for further detail but pictured is my B-Spindle upgrade on my 64 F-85 Pro-Touring build. Got the spindles off a Buick Estate wagon, ILE rotors, GM rebuilt calipers-Caprice Police car, Tie rod ends-Buick GN. tapered bearings-F body Firebird-Camero the rest Hotchkis-front and rear paired with a Moser 9 inch.

71 OLDS

That's a lot of the stuff that I'm taking off (B-body spindles and compatible upper arms and rotors) and replacing with the new items listed for steering geometry improvements detailed earlier in this thread.

-Joe

therobski

I read ,WOW. For what I want out of this build it will handle fine. I'm not getting crazy with 17-18 inch wheels etc. I wanted modern handling and safety along with the 15x7 GM steelies, dog dish hub caps with the A/C blowing!

brownbomber77

The spindles you may be able to sell yo 73-77 or Trans Am folks...that's an easy upgrade for us. Bolts right in with the 89-91 1LE or GTA rotor

71 OLDS

Totally understand. The B-body setup does improve the suspension geometry and if you don't drive your car hard into corners the steering geometry issues it causes are not the end of the world. I'm trying to get my 442 to drive like a new sports car and I drive it really hard so I'm hoping the new setup will show lots of improvement for me. Not just in hard corners but also in situations like making u turns and even parking in a parking lot. Some of those little things drive me crazy. I have learned to work around them and the car can be driven as is but really want these nagging issues resolved. Also I'm with you on the AC - got mine fully converted to the R134 and it blows ice cold even at stop lights or low RPMs. Took some work but got all that figured out.

I will be selling my complete B-body setup as one unit - B-body spindles, Hotchkis B-body spindle upper control arms, and B-body spindle compatible Baer 13" rotors. Separated each part might be harder to sell but I think all 3 together will have more value so someone can have everything in one complete kit. Not sure on pricing yet. Will need to figure all that out.

71 OLDS

Nothing but frustrating delays on everything. Front end parts and 6 speed trans were both ordered 7 weeks ago. Tremec stopped making the Magnum 2.66 6 speed for 5 weeks so mine finally shipped today. Then I got an update from SC&C that the company that makes the aluminum AFX spindles won't have another run of them completed until end of April at the earliest which means they won't be assembled and to me until May/June time frame. Unfortunately the B-body spindles and my old rotors will have to go back on for now until these spindles are finally ready. Will have the chassis brace, SC&C adjustable upper control arms, and Lee 800 box installed this go round but will have to wait on AFX spindles and GT rotors until I finally have the spindles.

71 OLDS

Good news for a change - Mark at SC&C had a customer change plans and return a set of AFX spindles and luckily I was first in line - They will be arriving at the shop next week. So I don't have to wait until May/June now on anything but the aluminum steering arms unless Mark can get them to make a few sets earlier (apparently there are 3 or 4 people with AFX spindles w/o the aluminum steering arms). If not will have to go with the stock steering arm until the aluminum ones are made with next run of the AFX spindles. Will still have the bumpsteer unfortunately until the steering arms are swapped out but at least I will have the AFX spindles installed, the new GT 13" rotors installed and several of the negative issues from the b-body spindle set up resolved.

coppercutlass

Interesting read. Everyone is all the rage about disk brakes this and that and im pretty excited about scoring a set of aluminum front drums for my 72 which im running on tubular control arms LOL.

71 OLDS

It all depends on what you're trying to do with your car. I'm going for modern day cornering/handling/braking etc. Hoping all these upgrades get me where I want to be.

A little more good news for the new suspension parts. Mark from SC&C confirmed today the aluminum steering arms are available now and will be sent to Frank's shop with my new aluminum spindles. Now everything can be installed this go round instead of installing stock steering arms temporarily so really happy about that. Plus the new Lee 800 steering box is on it's way too. Can't wait to drive the car with no bump steer and as perfect suspension and steering geometry as possible on a 71 442.

coppercutlass

I keep it light for flight. I spend alot of time at the drag strip. No sway bar in the front and surprisingly the car handles well on the street. Not carving corners but I thought taking the sway bar out was going to make it horrible.

71 OLDS

Understood - I'm still going to be hitting some of my local 1/8 mile and 1/4 mile tracks to see what I can do. Will probably remove the front sway bar, lower air in drag radials, put QA1 single adjustable fronts on level 1 and see how things go. Also have line lock (trying to have Frank hook up to the factory cruise control buttons) and 2 step for launching consistency with the manual trans. Will start around 4000 RPM launch at the track and see how things go from there. On the street without any adjustments it likes to launch around 3500 or so for best no spin/no bog but being able to set that RPM, floor it and know it will hold at whatever RPM it's set on really helps for consistency.



Lee 800 steering box and new chassis brace are on:

Y54OgRN.jpg

VpijkXr.jpg

71 OLDS

AFX spindles, steering arms, upper control arms, and GT rotors are installed:

7kVsCHa.jpg

therobski

VERY NICE job!

midnightleadfoot

Why does this thread sound like a sales pitch

71 OLDS

Hmmm I wish it was a sales pitch. I guess that would mean I got the AFX parts for free or at least discounted or something. Also until I get the car on the road - won't know if I will have good or bad things to say to that's still TBD. I hope it's all good and I'm happy - if so I'll add lots of positive feedback so you can think it sounds even more like a sales pitch.

BTW - I think this part of my post covered "why" I wrote this up - maybe you missed it.


"Sorry for the long post but I thought this might be helpful for others. I couldn’t find one place that really broke all this down so I figured I would write it all out myself. It actually helps with trying to make my decision for dropping all that $$$."

-Joe

midnightleadfoot

The sales pitch feel was from the need to trash the 40 year old upgrade.. That was much better than stock and only thing avail when it came out..
Sure the newer stuff sometimes is better, but that is with most things..
I did the b spindle swap in the 80's and I know the time it took off my autocross /auto x times.. even with it's faults..
When a person gets pushed to the front of the line of a waiting list, ... well glad it worked out for you..
What was the total real world cost of your swap?
I know my b spindle was 750.00 with swap parts upper tube arms and tie rods to adjust out bump . I kept my 15" wheels.. and the taxi 12 rotors fit just fine

71 OLDS

I wouldn't say I trashed B-Body spindles and remember I put them on my car too. The issue back then was we were all given the "sales pitch" as you call it for only the positives for the B-body spindles but no one mentioned ANY negatives back then. Over time the negatives slowly came out and now there are alternatives. Like you many are happy with the B-Body spindles but I'm not. We probably have different driving styles so if you're happy and I'm happy it's all good for both of us. Again the purpose of this thread was to provide some information that others may not have been aware of. I was not aware of it or why/what caused some of the issues I was having so after doing lots of research I thought it would be helpful/useful to post the info here. Not trying to bash anyone or be negative especially when it's a story about what I did and what I'm trying to do to improve my situation. As I mentioned I still don't know if all the upgrades will have been worth it until I get the car on the road and see if the issues I was having have improved. Not sure of the exact total $$$ spent. To be honest I don't want to add it up.

midnightleadfoot

IIRC the bad parts were listed in the story I read about the swap in about 1981-3 . it might have been in a circle track mag not a hot rod mag. I might have it in a box somewhere as I have most of the car mags from 78-2004 .


I knew going in I'd have to deal with fixing the bump steer.. but most of the autocross lots I was at were not filled with big bumps.. So it wasn't as bad as you'd think, Now fun spirited driving on out on the road or a course with more bumps you noticed it.. I don't think I ever got it all out even with the adjustable tie rods/mounts.
If I was building a race car out of an a body as that is what a winning pro-touring car is.. a race car.. And back then I could've afforded it.. I'd have looked at what they used on the 73-77 a body's in the circle track world.. and not the b spindle swap.. But it was a fun car used in autocrosses and the street and my wallet was thin..
It was bolt it on.. not many in the hot rod world are engineers that can build a new front end.. And that was what this was aimed at..
Much of what was an upgrade 40 years ago has been surpassed buy even the most mundane , The vortec heads out flow many of the over the counter bowtie heads of the 70-80's .


There are kits like this made for my other car/toy.. to fix it's oem issues the general willed the g body with, but they are 2500-4000.00 bucks..
That is a c4 , that after all the mods to the g the c4 will still run circles around it.. Maybe it is me getting older, but today I'd start with a platform that is of the bat better in my wallet range..


For s and giggles what was the all in cost of that upgrade you did.. real cost with everything, not the parts list price

71 OLDS

Bump steer is only one of the issues caused by the B-body spindles but it's also what you hear the most about. As explained above you also have the huge weight add, the steering arms are too long, and Ackerman error. All of these issues cause/create performance issues. The new setup I have now "should" correct all of this - will the car perform how I hope now? Again we will see. As I already mentioned I'm not going to break out part by part the total cost but you can look it all up online if you want. I think the $3k mentioned above is pretty close. Bottom line is it's lots of money. Only time will tell if it was worth it to me. I will put the results here good or bad and will try to add some videos eventually too.

therobski

I spent some of my son's inheritance of my 64-85 Pro-Touring suspension. That said if you would look through my thread in major projects with more detail then mentioned above. Should steer like a go-kart....with other component's of course....

71 OLDS

I'm with you. It takes lots of $$$ for these upgrades but can't wait to see how much better it handles. In addition to improving on the B-Body spindle issues with the new kit, I think the new steering box and chassis brace will really help things too. With my entire front end being fiberglass:

NNsvXxQ.jpg

I really needed the additional support of the chassis brace.

midnightleadfoot

All your video's or photo's are this..

71 OLDS

updated all the pics here. - hopefully they are good now. Hoping to have the car back on the road in a few weeks. We'll see how it goes.

BFjMJit.jpg