Creativeindy

How loose is too loose for the ball joints? I put on my new Tubular UCA/LCA which came with ball joints and adjustable sway bar end link and I also threw on new standard springs with sensatrac shocks. Now I installed only the drivers side for now as I ran out of time last night to do the passenger.

Problem is, after installation I noticed that with the tie rod dissconnected the spindle would barely turn right or left and I had not even really torqued down the ball joint castle nuts. The situation is if I leave them super loose the hub will move around easily but a little too easily. It's too slopy and it wobbles. If I even just slightly tighten the ball joints castle nuts to proper torque the hub assy wont move very good. Then when I drive it the car tracks so bad, it memory steers to the right only. If I turn wheel to right it stays right. It pulls super bad to the right as of now which more than likely its due to one side being all new tubular and the other side worn out stock parts.

Not sure how to fix the issue. I'm almost sold on the fact the tubular control arms were not the right size. I had to mill a 8th off the right side of the left arm outter bushing to even get the thing installed and even then I had to beat the living **** out of it messing up the powder coat.

So my question is has any one ran into this issue before with even slightly tightening down the ball joint castle nuts cause hard to turn issues? What did you do to fix this problem? The pulling hard to right is likely the new spring which is 1" taller than worn out old and the bushings and everything are all new. I'm more concerned out the fact if I turn wheel to the right the car will do full circle turns all on it't own and it's even a struggle to turn the car back to straight.

oldcutlass

Ok you have a few things working against you here.

1. Mismatched front end parts from left to right.

2. Mismatched springs.

3. Probably way out of alignment, which contributes to the pulling.

If you torque the castle nuts to spec's, disconnect the steering linkage, does that side turn easily? Also did you grease the ball joints? How much thread is there sticking out for the castle nut. Are the ball joints sitting in the steering knuckle correctly?

Creativeindy

Yes, the ball joints are sitting correctly. They were pre-installed in the tubular control arms and I did check for press fit on lower and torqued the upper BJ bolts to spec for replacements. There is an average amount of thread sticking past castle, Not alot but not a little either. There is plenty of grease on ball joints and the control arm bushings. If I disconnect the steering linkage (Tie Rod) it still is hard to move to left and right when I torque the ball joint castle nuts to spec. If I lossen the catle nuts up any it gets easier but in doing so the spindle is now loose and sloppy.

As far as missmatched parts from left to right it's impossible. The tubular arms are marked but even if they were not there is no way to instal the parts from left to right they would not even line up. I thought about this last night and I double and triple checked. It's installed on the right side and correctly. As far as pulling I am aware it was going to do that like I said above, I only have 1 side installed the other is still original so I can see the pulling issue. My problem is the car memory steers on account of the amount of the torque on the castle nuts causing the steering/spindel to not move left to right freely. Were not even talking a great deal. I literally go from tight as hell to loose as hell with 1/4 turn on the nuts. The original ball joints were more forgiving on this. I know it's all new parts and they may just need to be broken in but this is super tight. I am afraid to leave them loose as it leaves a little play in the spindle movement on the ball joints. I may try it and see what happens. I plan to swap out other side tonight and then get it aligned in the AM. Hopefully the memory steer is just from not swapping out both sides. I will say my PS belt squeels now due to having to work harder to turn that wheel.

oldcutlass

No, the mismatch is standard control arms on passenger side, new on drivers. One new spring on drivers side, old on passenger. Compounded by alignment out of spec!

As long as the taper on the ball joint matches the taper in the knuckle, and the parts are not bottoming out, I believe you should be fine. To be on the safe side I would call the vendor and explain your issue.

Insom

One side new tubular and one side old worn out...mismatched from left to right.

Creativeindy

Oh gotcha on the missmatch part. Yea I can def see the missmatch causing some issues. I just was concerned about how hard it was to turn the wheel after even slightest torque to castle nuts. I mean it's so hard I have to use everything I have to move it left or right. If I loosen the nuts just the slightest bit (1 cotter pin indent) the thing is loose enough to move so easy but then I notice a tad of movement if I try to move it up and down. This may go away once pressure is on the wheel but it also may cause it to wear premature. I think I will take your advice and contact the vendor. I will first put the other side on and make sure it's not just a new part break in mixed with miss matched from side to side issue.

Hopefully it all goes better tonight than last night. I'll update as soon as I get the other side swapped. Thanks man!

Creativeindy

Quick question...is it possible to overtighten the sway bar end link to where it causes steering issues? Or will tightening it down that tight just cause it to be ineffective since the bushing would be smashed? I have it tight to where the is a slight compression(1/4) of the bushings.

oldcutlass

No, it will not effect steering issues.

Creativeindy

Never again will I attempt to do control arms any more. I fought the lower rear passenger side bolt for 7 hours between last night and today. I ended up cutting the bolt off both ends between the control arm and the frame. The bolt was fused to the bushing and no matter what it would not come out. Couldn't tap it out as there was no room between the frame and the end of the bolt. I even tried gas on it and had that baby glowing, so much in fact I thought I was going to catch the oil filter on fire as it was sizzling.

Finally after cutting with a sawzaw I was able to drop it but that was just one problem. I broke 2 seperators triying to get the lower ball joint loose from spindle. Tried beating, heating, pulling, pushing you name it I tried it. It's completly frozen in there and I can't remove it. I am going to have to take it some where and have it pressed out. I stole a bolt of my 71 so I could get the tubulars on. Installed the new springs and shocks. Need to pick up a new tie rod as I mushroom the head beating it with a BFG. I broke a seperators trying to break the tie rod loose as well. Cheap *** auto zone tools. Even a tie rod puller would not sperate it. I stripped the threads out on the puller and it was a snap on puller not a cheapo.

THe new tubulars went on much better than the driver side did. Had to fight to get the bolts in but that was about it. Once I get the tie rod on the car will be under its own power. For now I removed the shims that were op top of the UCA so I will surely need to get it aligned. I stole the entire spindle, steering arm and backing plate from the 71. I had previously converted the 71 to disc using a 70 monte as the doner car. I am hoping the steering arm is the same. I know the backing plate and spindles match a cutlass with disc front but somewhere I read if you use a monte carlo as a doner car you need to retain your cutlass steering arm?

Hopefully the memory steer will be gone after an alingment.

Creativeindy

So, I finished installing the arms which included new upper and lower ball joints, end links, control arm bushings with grease fittings on each, rotor, wheel bearings, wheel seals, brake calipers, hoses, shoes, springs etc. The only thing I didn't get swapped was the shocks as I had to order them.

I also had it alinged this morning. It turned out my toe in was pretty off on the pass side which I figured as I replaced the tie rod ends and wasn't sure where the correct setting was. It was 58 degrees in as was the driver was 22 degrees in. Caster and camber were decent the driver said needs another shim but they didnt have any so right now im as close as Im going to get on alingment, well after I put the shim in.

So my problem is I still have a nasty vibration in the front at highway speeds that wasn't there before the new parts. It's not bad but it's annyoing and def noticible in the hood and fenders moving while driving. You can physiclly see them vibrating from what would normally look like a tire out of balance. Problem is my tires are new and balanced.

So my question is that the only used parts on the car are the shocks. I know they need replaced as when I pushed them down they did have resistance going down however they did not move back up on there own. As such when I had them all the way down I had to do all I could to pull them back out of the housing. So I know I need shocks and as soon as I get them in I will replace them. Could this be the reason I have vibration?? It's definitly moving vibration where speed effects it as different speeds to make it worse or improve. The rims were static balanced due to trim rings. Now if a wheel was off I could see it but like I said, didn't do this before the swap of new parts.

I figure that the springs and everything else are new and with the junk shocks the car is not really vibrating but bouncing up and down from road bumps causing it to vibrate since the shocks can't asorb the bumps.

Any other ideas?

oldcutlass

Are they gas pressured shocks? If not they will not extend by themselves. shocks generally don't cause a vibration. They will cause the front end to float around and bounce. You may want to check your tire balance again.

Did you get all your castle nuts tightened, with cotter pins installed? Are all the A frame bolts tight?

ah64pilot

Just gonna jump in here...were the tires put on before you did the suspension? I know you say new, but new last year or newly installed with no miles on them? If they have miles on them from before the parts change, they may have a wear pattern already on them from the old suspension / alignment...just a thought.

Creativeindy

Tires are brand new static balanced. The car drove and steered fine prior to A Arm installation. I had it previously aligned when I purchased the tires 2 months back. The tires have less than 50 miles on them total.

All bolts, cotter pins and castle nuts are on and torqued to specs. Had the alignment shop re-check everything today and confirm each and every part. The vibration was there before but not as bad. Now it's worse and it does go with speed and smooths out at other speeds.

The shocks on there now are Sensatracs that are super old. They barely go in and barely come out. So in essence my front end is riding on springs alone. The front end feels sloppy and loose. This could also be because my gear box needs rebuilt or possibly tightened up. Shocks will be on tomorrow morning and I will then recheck the tire pressure. I did notice both front tires were a tad low on air. Passenger was 30lbs drivers was 25. This could cause a few issues with slight vibration but the vibration I have would make me think as you said balance. I might try swapping out to another set of tires and rims off the S. The memory steer is still present but not as bad as it was.

The alignment shop also said the cast on drivers needs 1 more shim and they were out. He stated it would not effect vibration or pulling that it would just prematurely wear the tire out on the inner edge until I get the shim. It's only 1 or 2 degree IIRC that its off. I wanna say he told me 1 degree out it needs to come or 1 more shim.

ah64pilot

Wait, you said the vibration was there before but not as bad...now that everything is new and tight any vibration you had before is going to feel aggravated because of the tightness of the suspension.

Creativeindy

When I say vibration was there before but not as bad this was due to multiple worn parts. I had a lower ball joint that was damn near unseated and a tie rod that was barely hanging on. This is why I upgraded everything on the front end. Even with the worn parts the vibration was no where near as bad as it is now. Before I would run 70 oin the way to work and I would notice a slight vibration in steering wheel and visually notice it in hood and fender on passenger side. Of course this was due to bad tie rods and bad ball joint on passenger side. I could jack car up and passenger wheel was sloppy as hell. Now with all these new parts the fender and hood vibrate considerably worse, the steering wheel shakes WAY worse. I can jack car up and everything is nice and snug as should be. Does it from 10mph on up and gets worse or better with speed. Before my vibration only happened above 50 or so due to worn parts. So I just can't see the argument about adding new items would only aggravate a previous vibration. As well as every working suspension part that causes vibration (except shocks) has been replaced with brand new parts front and rear. I am starting to lean towards a tire out of balance just because of how it feel when I drive it. It could also be a rotor out of round from the factory or bad new wheel bearing. I'm going to pull everything back off after 500 miles and recheck and re-torque.

ah64pilot

That's what I am saying though, the vibration was there before and everything else was replaced except the tires. I think your vibration was the tires, and now that everything is new and tight you're feeling it more than you did when everything was loose and worn out.

I like your change the tires out idea and see if it goes away...I have a feeling it might.

Mikes65

What brand control arms?
When I did the 65 I used Southwest Speed and the ball joints were too short
Had to press them out and use Moog

Creativeindy

BMR or Global West one or the other, don't have my paper work handy. There all about the same style at least when I researched them. Only major differences was tube size, strength, welds and weight.


Ball joints are long enough. I have plenty sticking out. The alignment guy said everything was within spec, cross caster, toe in, height, droop, etc. Said the car was solid just needed new shocks and 1 more shim I didn't have.

Creativeindy

Ahh I got ya. Yea I am going to get some new tires tomorrow. These were bought just for temp usage and painting.

oldcutlass

So what your saying is the alignment shop did not have enough shims to properly set your caster. Caster is the one setting that can aggrevate a vibration.

Since your front end parts were seriously worn, which would actually mask a wheel vibration, I'd recheck your balance and make sure the wheels are true.

Why was your steering binding after you changed control arms and tightened the nuts?? Did you figure that out?

Creativeindy

I had it rechecked and realigned this morning and the car is perfect. Vibration is still present. Memory steer or binding on the drivers will was as I mentioned above too tight of castle nuts, I loosened drove for a hundred miles last night and today and had them recheck and tighten to spec and car physiclly steers, corners, drives great outside of vibration. I put a new set of tires and rims on and still vibrates. So it's not in the tires as we thought. I bought brand new ones this AM and used an awesome set of rims. The new tires were so close they required very little weight. Alignment shop said front end is dead on perfect that it wont get any better. Shocks are the only thing still not installed yet.

ah64pilot

This is puzzling...

Would shocks really make that big of a difference in straight line vibration feel? I guess if you need them anyway it doesn't hurt to put 'em on and see...I'm just skeptical of them solving the issue. I have been driving around without front shocks for a few months and I don't feel any difference other than body roll and hitting bumps...no vibration or anything. Who know's...hopefully that's it.

I'm out of ideas.

Creativeindy

I'm with you on the shock thing. I don't think this is my issue. I am leaning towards something in the rear end causing this now. Reason I say this was the old tires had a blown belt in the rear passenger side and it caused the front to jump bad. So I am wondering if something in the rear is causing the front to vibrate and making me think it's in the front.

ah64pilot

I really hope you get it figured out. And I'm curious to know what it is too. I wonder if it could be a rear tire? But you already replaced them right?

Ohh! How about the driveshaft? Could it have been tweaked when the blowout occurred? I know I'm fishing but I really don't know what else it could be.

Impin'

Any update on this? I'm very curious after reading the thread.

oldcutlass

Shocks should not cause a vibration by themselves, they will amplify one. how much travel does the shock have? Yes, the vibration can be generated from the rear tires, or driveshaft. It could also be a torque converter.

Porter858

Wow this is a good one, since you’ve already eliminated so many things and still have a vibration across a wide range of speed. Does the vibration change at all whether you’re on the gas or just coasting? Trying to get an idea if it’s purely speed/chassis related or driveline related.