Artdlr

By chance is the owner{s} of the restored 1966 442 featured on the Jeff Lilly web site a member of this forum?
The 442 was very nice in the before photos and is now a museum grade work... Wow, a beautiful 442!
Reason I ask… The 442 prior to the restoration at Lilly is {overall} in the same condition as my 1955 88 coupe is now. The restoration the owners of Snow White had the Lilly folks complete is what I envision for my 55. What did that restoration run to complete utilizing Lilly?
I don’t wish to be nosey I simply would like a cost basis for what a restoration of this level runs {using the Lilly companies} so I can better determine if I am a candidate to dialog again with the Lilly folks… Only this time I’ll trailer the 55 to their facility for a personal inspection instead of inquiring over the phone. I know the craftsmanship from Lilly is among the highest quality in the Texas and one pays for that, but based on the dialog I might have with the owner of Snow White would greatly help me to determine if I am a candidate to bother the Lilly folks with my project or not. I don’t expect exact figures for the resto on Snow White but a ball-park is fine… Perhaps a close to actual cost, a “no more than-not less than” figure would be sufficient to help me. If Snow Whites owners are not part of this forum does anyone have a lead to where they might contact them?
Thanks

gearheads78

He posted here a few times and we never heard from him again. That quality of work was probably over 100K if I was guessing. I bet there is $5000.00 labor in the front bumper.

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...nvertible.html

442oldslawyer

Over 100k . And you have to start with a good car.

66ninetyeightls

Wow

Artdlr

Hey Richard,
Thanks for the link to the previous post. The reference to costing more than his son's "college tuition" is very telling!
For what it's worth, i've inquired {via e-mail} to the Lilly folks for an "estimate" on the resto for Snow White... We'll see what they say. A goal for me in 2010 is to attend more auto shows / Auto-rama's where vendors set-up and chat with restoration companies. There's got to be a more local, quality house that can accomodate my needs.
I've been asked to post a few pic's of my 55 to give you all a preview... Between a 7 day work week and not-so-great weather it's been difficult to get it out of the garage on a sunny day for a photoshoot but I will get some snaps posted soon. Thanks again for the link to the Snow White post.

Artdlr

Bingo... We have a "winner"... Richard step up to get your prize for guessing the estimated amout for the restoration for the 69 442... It is indeed... inside the low 6 figures!
All I can say is WOW!
I have gained a whole new respect for the "concours" restorations I see occasionally. I will continue to seek-out a firm {local to me} that is more aligned with my financial ability. I'll do as much due-dilligence as possible but I have a feeling I'll need a bit of luck also.
Mr. Lilly was kind in his response and eluded to the fact his firm does not seek out restoration projects with budgets attached. He mentioned the average resto for his group runs approximately 15k per month as an average. Hat's off to them!
This pretty much puts a bullet in my pursuit of the Lilly group as a restoration house for me.
As promised here are a few snapshots of my 55 I've spoken about. She's not running at the moment due to some kind of electrical issue... Unsure what the problem is or where to start looking so I'll probably seek out a local mechanic who is familiar with vintage and let them have a look. Hopefully it's nothing serious.
Enjoy the snaps...

Artdlr

Muffin demanded to be in the pic's!

yzzerdd

Wow, that 55 looks like it's already been restored! Real sharp car.

--Ryan

gearheads78

55 looks its in great shape. Whats the 69's condition?

Artdlr

Don't have a 69 {yet anyway!}
All I've got is the 55.
The 69 442 I referenced was the {a 66 actually...My mistake} 66 442 at Lilly called Snow White. This project was completed by Lilly for somewhere above 100k. The condition of the 66 is as you would expect from a Lilly resto... top tier!
I can only hope this for my 55

Cameo White

If the 55 has never been repainted, I'd show it the way it is in the survivor class. Looks pretty sharp. Don't find too many like that in these parts, that's for sure.

citcapp

Nice car, I agree i would show it as is with some detail work

Artdlr

Thanks for the compliments!
It is indeed a nice car just as-is really, But I'd like to put it back to the showroom state if possible. Is there a way to tell difinatively if a car has been re-painted or not?
Based on my limited knowledge I think the car has been partially re-painted. From what I can determine by a visual scan I believe there are "cracks" in what may be bondo at one rear corner, perhaps the car was in some kind of wreck at some point in it's life but I cannot guarantee that. The original owner was a mechanic for 40+ years and claimed the car was never wrecked but may have been "touched up" over the years he had it. He could not recall. If I get some really good close-up's of the cracking I'll post them and get soem input from the forum.
Is "survivor class" a normal/regular class of entry at auto shows?.. I've never heard of a survivor class.

70Post

Unless the car appears a lot worse in real life vs. the pics you posted I think you are really "wasting" your $ considering a complete resto on the car.

Of course, pics can be very deceiving as there's no way to tell if the paint on the car is super slick/nice or something less.

What exactly about the '66 car got you?? The whole car was highly over-restored and shows it in the super, super slick finishes. I see the attraction that may hold for some but it only comes at an extremely high cost that will likely far exceed what the car will ever be worth.

But....nothing like spending furiously to keep the economy going, etc.

As people are surely wondering here, it would be interesting to see how much is original on your car exterior and interior-wise.

Part of the "problem" with a car like that '66 is once you start you really commit yourself to making the car look "right". What I mean, for example, is if you spring for a super, super slick paint job then any other component on the car not up to that standard will sort of "stick out" and glare at you.

A big part of your cost would be the true, underlying condition of the body sheet metal, frame and chassis. You really don't know 100% what that is until the car is stripped to bare metal although you can get clues sometimes via a very close visual "forensic" inspection. It's just hard to tell if things like the clean looking seat covers are something original, excellent repros or something less that was put on there in place of worn originals. Maybe there are parts of the car that bug you or glare at you already. As an earlier poster suggested...consider just bringing those areas up to a level to match the look of the rest of the car. How's the underhood area/engine compartment?

Hopefully you will have this car at some upcoming meet or Olds event down here in the future. I'd love to look it over closely.

That really is a cool looking car.

Artdlr

Hey Patton,
Excellent perspective on the R.O.I. for a Lilly quality resto. I find it really hard to believe or come to terms with the fact that {even the wealthiest} auto enthuasiasts will pour 100's of thousands into a "project" against all odds that the project will ever return at the very least the initial investment. From what I can gather, if an enthusiast is not prepared to "do-it-yourself" the enthusiast can expect to lose better than 60% of the inital investment. Very hard for me to believe... but perhaps this is a reality of the restoration aspect. It's beginning to look more and more like my foray into boat ownership... Definately a money pit. Fun... But a money pit. Still cannot believe the beating I took when I sold the boats we did have.

I will take your advice {aswell as a few others suggestions} and seek out restoration firms for different aspects, I'll work on what really needs to be done and leave the best parts alone. I like your suggestion that putting a sparkling paint job on a poor interior will only make the interior look worse, true, very true. As-for my paint condition, It's not great but not bad. Fading and chalky in some spots but may only need a serious buff or perhaps a few coats of laquer to return the shine. More or less I'd really like to get the car to a mechanical point where it's reliable and could be a daily driver {gotta have a/c here in Texas though}. I'd like to get the Olds to a point where I could drive from here to Austin or the Hill country area for a weekend without fear of a breakdown.
I've not looked at a Lilly restoration as "overkill" as you say, but perhaps you are correct. As-is my 55 certianly has personality!
I must admit the term "survivor" is new to my lexicon, until I acquired the Olds and began dialoging with other enthuasists I had never heard the term survivor used in respect to old, original cars. Perhaps a survivor is better than a heavily manipulated vehicle. I'll take some snaps of the engine area and underneath the car for you to see, this will give you an idea of the condition. Maybe even from the pictures you'll be able to tell me what the hell is wrong with the electrical system and why the car currently won't start!... Just kidding. I plan a tow to the local mechanic for a visit to see what's wrong now.
I'll get some engine and under-car snaps soon...
Thanks for the dialog.
When/where is a Texas area show you attend?... Perhaps I can meet you in person.

70Post

When I said "over-restored" about that car the intent was not to denigrate their work. Apparently, they do SUPER work and it shows up in that car. The car almost doesn't look real in the pictures...looks more like a highly detailed die cast model! Their website is quite an adventure in and of itself with all the informative how-to articles. I'm still drooling over the article on how they prepped the bumpers for the '66.

Hey, it's not all about ROI for a lot of these people. The people that pay that kind of money to get those cars done have probably heard all the "ROI" talk they can stand and they've likely made a lot of money paying attention to ROI in their businesses, etc.

So...they have more money than they will likely ever need and say "what the hell....lets do one as slick as possible and damn the costs!". Therein lies a pretty large contribution to the economy as the "crazy money" that owner spends gets sent out to the chrome places, the paint suppliers, the repro parts people, the suspension parts place, an engine builder, etc, etc, etc. Employees at the shop log a lot of hours and get paid for those hours. There is surely a good "multiplier" effect to each $ that was spent...he/she was a one-person stimulus package!!

One event here that is becoming VERY BIG is the Lone Star Rod and Kustom Roundup. This is becoming a "must attend" event for a lot of the hotrod and custom crowd and it is always a great time with the daytime show and the nightime bar/car cruising scene centered around The Continental Club on South Congress Avenue. Link:

http://www.lonestarroundup.com/

There's a pretty large contingent of Olds people there in Houston associated with the Olds Club of America as well as a group in San Antonio.

There is always a massive Olds showing at the Bastrop Area Car Cruiser's show on Veteran's Day each year and that has turned into a great Olds event as there is an Olds-group specific BBQ gathering at one couple's place on Friday night, the show on Sat and then another dinner get together on Sat night at another local Olds couple's house. All that gets followed up with a Sunday buffet at the nearby Hyatt resort...so, there's another multi-day/multi-chow deal. Not anytime soon but worth putting on the calender and attending.

It's hard with these cars sometimes.....do you start "messing" with them?(after all we all have the urge to improve/change/work on these things no matter how nice they are). Where do you stop.

You have a "harder" case than most. A large number of cars are worn to the point where the need for work/$ input is pretty obvious. It's these nice-but-not-perfect cars that are hard to resist working on. After all, cars like that are "easy" restorations if they are clean to start with...no heavy duty panel replacement or welding in a lot of new metal to replace rusted stuff, etc. So....they "tempt" you by seeming to whisper...."yeah go ahead, it won't take much time or money since I'm in such good condition to start with". But....where do you stop??

You could still easily drop $30-50k (or more) on that car if you wanted to redo everything. Tread carefully.

Artdlr

Evening everyone,
Hope all had a successful day.

Patton... Totally agree that Lilly is top form in the resto business, it's not possible to denigrate his work, he's tops. Like you, I enjoy the openess of his site with the how-to's {sort-of}. I've researched Lilly on Youtube aswell... have a look there if you seek more do-it-yourself info, he's posted a few vid's... may be useful to you. I wish I were in the crazy money level to dedicate to my Olds, but alas I'm a 9to5'er at an average salary with the same bills we all probably have. so I'll continue to seek out a restoration/stabilization firm that will deliver the level I can live with for the dough I can spend. Thanks for the lead to the meet in Austin. I looked at the site and the photos there. Are standard/stock vintage cars welcome?... Most of the snaps featured mod's and customs. I'm not that into the rock-a-billy / greaser scene and would hate to be the square that crashes a good party. If all types are welcome I'll persuede my wife to get fiftees and we'll drive to olds to Austin for the day. Also... I've joined the local Gulf Coast Olds chapter, Nice folks there. I work retail so now that Christmas is behind me I can dedicate a bit more time to after-work activities like the chapter meets & such. Unfortunatley I've not dedicated much time to the club but hope to make more time soon. I did dialog with a few of the members of the chapter about restoring the Olds and they were unable to give me a firm they felt was top tier. Were not much help with the search.
But... I will attend more car shows and auto-rama's and seek out like-minded folks I can dialog with about my situation. I agree with you on the perspective that my car is at the point where "should-I... should'nt I...". Truthfully I just want the Olds to be reliable and in the very best condition I get achieve. Funny thing.... I am not a terribly "creative fellow" and have a hard time "visualizing" a project finished. I can easily spot a top notch work when I see a completed one but to get it there is not my forte. So... fella's like me often rely on the creativity of others and buy the finished product when we see it... It's just a fact of life for me. I am terribly picky and fussy about detail which is what draws me to the Lllly firm, I can easily see the dedication to even the smallest detail which impresses me quite a bit. What is aggravating to me at this point is the obvious fact that my 55 is already in great shape and would probably need very little to make it concours. But... as a non-do-it-yourselfer it's easy for me to "say" it won't take much to get it there but in reality it may well be harder than I know. So I am hung-up on a fence post about the resto of my 55. I have gathered great insight from this site though... It's been very, very helpful.
Engine/underside pic's coming soon.
FYI... Hell, I wish Lilly would consider my 55 for a 30k resto... I'd probably make a run to the bank!... 30's a long, long way from the 100's he's quoting!

Lady72nRob71

Personally, I think that 55 should be left alone and shown as is. It is TOO NICE for resto! Everything has just the right patina... Just think - if a shop replaces existing parts (like those nice looking door panels) with repros, whats to become of those originals?? The dumpster? hate to think...

If I had that beauty, i would keep it as a surviving fun car and get another similar car in rougher shape for a resto. Something with totally faded paint and a worn out interior. Of course, it would need to have no rust issues. Then retrofit a/c as it is being rebuilt.
I think you know what I am getting at.

A car can only be original once and they are getting more rare as time goes on. In local shows here in Plano, the survivors seem to get more attention than the restored cars and customs. I love looking at them.

Lastly, a survivor will likely to see more road and give you more miles o' smiles. If it is too clean and perfect, you might be paranoid to drive it.

Just my opinion. One is fun but two's a blast!

70Post

Rob's hitting the nail on the head....a crazy resto may not stop at the car. Now you will be worried about dings and rock chips....so....buy a truck and then a trailer. Before you know it you decide the open trailer isn't enough as you had to tow the car through a rainstorm coming home from the last show. So, spring for an enclosed trailer. Now you have the fun of maintaining a trailer, etc.

Maybe you'd be satisfied with a super slick paint job and leave the rest alone...who knows?? But once you get to that point the temptation to keep spending is strong as you feel the rest of the stuff isn't up to par. It's a slippery slope for sure. Remember, checkbooks and charge cards typically don't come with self activating brakes on them as long as there's money/credit left in the account.

The rod round up brings in all kinds of cars..stockers, rat rods, customs, etc. so believe me when I say nobody will be turning their noses up if they see your car. I would bet money you will get tired of hearing "how much will you sell that car for?" if you took it to that show. It's also happens to be a custom/rodders dream since it's so unmodified.

Get the car mechanically sound and get AC in it and then sit back and think about it. That can easily absorb plenty of money itself but it's money well spent since it makes the car that much more reliable and driveable...get it "jump-in-and-go" ready and have some fun with it. All the new paint and show chrome in the world won't make it start or run any better.

stevengerard

I'm in the middle of a two year paint job , if your car looks as good as it does, I'd say leave it. As it has been said it is a slippery slope. I know many hopeful car owners that start with a restoration of estimates at 5k - 15k and they always end up being triple the original estimate. There is just so much that can and will change (or go wrong) during a restoration. I am now in the middle of rewiring the whole car which meant the dash had to come out (after it was out once before) so that is costing me twice. And since we are rewiring everything now I am noticing all that is wrong with the engine compartment - ooh don't get me started I'm getting mad

Artdlr

Beginning to like the idea of starting with a nice, wet looking {original color} paint job as a raelistic first step in the "sprucing up of the 55. Priority is the mechanical though... Gotta get it running steady and reliably first then I'll focus on the paint. I'm beginning to look at the "earned patina' everything else has and may just leave the imperfections as-is. Kind of like the old proverb "If it ain't broke, Don't fix it!". The influence from this forum is strong... You are all Jedi now... "Survivor" power is strong with you all!
I do know myself well enough though... If the 55 has a beautiful, wet looking paint job I'll be more inclined to want to keep up the other aspects of the car, So Mechanical then Paint it is!
Thanks for the encouragment to attend the Austin meet, I'll certianly try to make it even if it's not in the Olds. As a secondary toy I've got an 08 Honda CBR1000rr... That would be a great reason for a road trip to Austin on the bike if the Olds is not up to it.