rocketraider

OK, it's pouring rain so I'm stuck inside, and I've got one of the old tube radios on a local AM station. They play 60s-70s and are jamming some 70s funk this afternoon.

Just heard an ad for local 'Yota dealer- "There's a Toyota in your future!"

Now it seems to me if that's a national ad campaign, Ford Motor Company legal would be all over that since Ford's first post WW2 ad campaign was "There's a Ford in your future!"

Or am I naive in thinking that once again, the Japanese never have an original idea but simply copy and improve on successful American ideas and products?

Moot point really since even if I were in the market for a 'Yota I would not buy it from the local dealer. The only one worse to deal with is the Chev-Cad-Buick dealer. Real arrogant a-holes, and the GM dealer parts department is notoriously incompetent- to where I will drive 30-50 miles to another dealer when I need dealer parts.

Diego

What was so successful about "There's a Ford in Your Future?"

I assure you it really has nothing to do with your bias against Toyota.

jaunty75

First, Ford would have had to have copyrighted the phrase and then renew the copyright over the years whenever needed. They probably didn't or haven't.

Second, Ford's legal department is probably not keeping track of their competitors' advertising to make sure that a slogan that Ford hasn't used in more than 60 years isn't being copied. They probably have a few other things to worry about right now.

Now if Toyota were copying a current or recent ad campaign, that would be different...

rocketraider

Only that Ford used that ad campaign from 1944 thru 1950. Ford itself must have thought the J. Walter Thompson Agency's idea was pretty successful.

You need to understand something and and understand it pretty quickly. I have an uncle who is still in the Arizona, and another one survived the Bataan Death March. It is personal for my family, so the smartest thing you can do is Shut UP with your PC drivel. I hear quite enough of it on ROP.

Capisce?

z11375ss

I feel the same way Rocket. America is disappearing under a cloak of PC bull****. Toyota can stuff their rice burning crap back onto their own people. Leave us alone. As for NASCAR, don't get me started.

Diego

Nothing PC about it.

Meanwhile, my family perished at the hands of the ***** yet still has owned a German car. Do you think I'm making an issue of a different country from a different time?

Sometimes it makes more sense to equip yourself with the facts instead of using non-issues to reinforce your bias.

z11375ss

Yep, nothin PC about it. I hate Toyota. It's that simple. They come in and take our manufacturing base away from us using our own laws and rules. Damn smart of them. Now Americans have to work for them to feed our families. Oy! Diego, nothing personal but why would anyone buy a car made by the same company that made weapons used against their country only a few years ago? It seems stupid. Just asking. I myself will never own a "foreign" car. (I know some parts come from different countries, but the profits do not go back to them)

jaunty75

Except that it's not Japan where our manufacturing base has gone to. It's China. Toyota builds here most of the cars its sells here and employs U.S. citizens in doing so.

You're right. But, the Nissan Altima, Honda Accord, and, gulp, Toyota Camry have more American-made parts in them than the Ford Mustang does. Yes, the profits on the sales of those vehicles goes back to the home company in Japan, but those profits also allow those companies to modernize and enlarge the factories they maintain HERE, which helps OUR citizens.

I've got no great love for the Japanese or the Chinese. Both have manipulated trade and currency practices to their benefit and to our detriment. But the argument about who is supported and who isn't when you buy any particular make and model of car isn't at all clear cut.




There has been one question I've been dying to ask rocketraider:

Tell me, which part of the Prius did Toyota copy from American auto manufacturers?



When it comes to innovation and quality control, the Japanese car makers have been having the U.S. car makers for lunch for the past 30+ years. It's taken the near-death of two of them to get their management to finally wake up to that fact. I still think that, five or maybe 10 years from now, there will be one U.S. auto manufacturer, and it will be Ford. By all rights, it should be Ford right now if the rules of the marketplace had been allowed to operate. There is no economic justification for the existence of the Chrysler Corporation, and GM has been so poorly managed for so long that they deserved to disappear as well. I've no doubt that, had that happened, someone like a Roger Penske might have come along and picked up the pieces and restored at least some of that manufacturing capacity right here in the U.S. After all, just because Chrysler and GM might have disappeared doesn't mean that the demand for cars would have disappeared as well.

Nilsson

Wow, I can hardly believe what I am reading on this subject. Jeez if I make the remark The South Will Rise Again will that start a whole new topic?

Considering that just about every American alive today had a relative that fought or died in WW2 those that still carry a grudge have to be in the minority.

jaunty75

If you don't mind my asking, what cars DO you own? I mean your daily driver or drivers, not your Oldsmobiles.


I'll go first and say that I have a 2009 Nissan Altima, assembled here in the U.S. (Smyrna, Tennessee) with 55% American part content, and a 2002 Dodge Dakota pickup truck which was made here in the U.S. by a then German-owned company called DaimlerChrysler.

citcapp

OK guys time to cool the jets. Lets move on. We do agree that we all like Olds right?

jaunty75

Ah, but passions run deep. In my experience, the attitudes we've seen on this thread are not at all rare or unique. It's always surprised me a bit that Japanese cars have sold so well here over the last 30-40 years given our history with that country.

But I think what this means is that many people recognize the difference between people who are alive today and people who were from the same country but were alive many years ago and did bad things. We must never forget the past or we are doomed to repeat it, as we've heard many times. But we also have to remember that the past IS the past. The people in Japan and Italy and Germany who are alive today and who are running those countries and living in them are not the ones who started World War II or who fought against us in those wars. Many of those people, particularly in Germany, are just as appalled, if not more so, than we are of the things their ancestors did in the name of their country, and they have worked hard to make up for those wrongdoings.

Japan has been less good on this subject and has not yet acknowledged all of its responsibility for the atrocities it committed during the war. We may never get them to do so. The world is not perfect. But we have a better chance of convincing them to do so or at least preventing them from doing bad things again if we engage them and make them part of our civilization instead or ignoring them, shunning them, or maintaining a hostile attitude toward them.

jaunty75

Oh c'mon! This is supposed to be "The Clubhouse", where anything goes as long its not religion or politics. So the discussion gets a little heated. That's what makes it interesting. We're all adults. We can handle it. It gets a little boring if all we do is stand around and tell each other how much we like our Oldsmobiles. That's what the other 99% of the forums are for.

derek nesdoly

x2 on the Jaunty and Nilsson comments. Wondering if Senior moment and Rocketrader share a poisoned water supply that dissolves the ability to have a reasoned discussion...pretty bizarre to have someone spurt off that kind of vitriol on something like car manufacturing.May want to save it for the attack on this site by killer Chev's and Mopars.

Nilsson

I would guess the Iraqis feel the same about us?


I am a movin on.

jaunty75

In what way?



History dealt the Iraqis a crappy hand, just as it has most of the countries over there. They were ruled by a tyrant who would have killed them as easily as he would a fly. We can debate until doomsday whether or not we really thought he had WMD, but for whatever reason, we went in there and cleaned out the bad guy. No, today, six years after he's gone, they don't yet have a perfect country. It might take them years to get one. We've been trying for 233, and we're not quite there yet.

But I bet you ask the average Iraqi you meet on the street if they would rather it be the way things were 10 years ago or would they rather it be the way it is now, and 9 out of 10 will say they'll take it now, warts and all.

Yes, their country is war-torn and needs lots of rebuilding. I'll bet the U.S. countryside wasn't too terribly beautiful, either, on the day after we beat the British. But look what we've grown into.

z11375ss

Like I said, nothing personal. I mean that derek. I own a 2005 Expedition and 2 Ford 500s. My toys are my Olds and a 71 LT1 Corvette. There's nothing in my water supply that makes me patriotic. That comes from my heart. I can't stand the way things are heading. All our manufacturing is going to the lowest wage paying locale. This may be best economically but it is far from the best morally. The corporations pay squat and turn around and sell to the U.S. What are we all going to do eventually? Sell pencils to each other? And I for one am really sick of hearing that the foreign car companies are doing good for America. They're doing good for themselves. Don't kid yourself.

Diego

I am an enthusiast, so where a car is from is irrelevant to me except for the fact that a country's culture has a hand in producing the vehicle.

I am also a believer in a free market system, so I buy what suits my needs. If that means buying something from a foreign country, so be it.

It's pretty elementary, doncha think?

jaunty75

Ah, nothing like a reasoned argument based on facts. Being sick about it doesn't make it true nor add weight to your argument, But then, why light a candle when it's so much more fun to sit around and curse the darkness?

z11375ss

Yes, it is elementary thinking. Put the past in the past etc. I just can't. Or won't.

z11375ss

That's it! I'm buying an SHO tomorrow! I've had it with you guys.

jaunty75

Now that WOULD be an example of having a "senior moment."

z11375ss

If you tweak the turbos, they'll run in the 12s. How's that for senior.

Diego

The SHO is overrated and its styling is bland.

Just like a Camry.

redoldsman

I think that the deline of GM started in the 70's when Roger Smith was CEO. The guy was a moron. Managment and the unions were both guilty in my opinion and opend the door for the Japanese. Remember that GM had 43% of the market back then. Then they started building cars you could not tell apart. The best example was the last version of the Olds 98. This once magnificant car was turned into a box. Now the Japenese are feeling some heat from the Koreans. I wound up with a Hundai Sonata a couple times when I rented cars. What a great little car and for not much money. I love their new Gensis but can't afford one.
As for the Japanese, I feel very strongly they should have made an apology for the Bataan Death March and that is one reason I will never own a Mitsubishi product. I understand some of the WWII veterans (The Greatest Generation) still harboring ill feelings. They have very deep scars. One of the things that really bugs me is the Chinese. We consume the majority of goods in this country from a communits country. I don't hate them for it because we are the ones that gave it to them.
Now if any of you guys want to take shots at what I have said, go ahead. I will not respond because I am not getting into a pizzing contest with anybody becaue that is not what this site is for. There is one other site that does a good job of that.

jaunty75

Yeah, but bland sells. What's been the #1 selling car in the U.S. for most of the last 10 years or so? If it hasn't been the Toyota Camry, it's been the Honda Accord. They don't sell because of styling. They sell because of quality and reputation. For the last several years, Ford and GM products have been the equal or near equal of anything the Japanese have, but what people purchase on is perceived value. For too long Ford and GM products were NOT the equal of Japanese products, and that's what people remember.

The #1 selling car in America USED to be the Ford Taurus, and before that it was for many years something called Oldsmobile Cutlass.

jaunty75

There's nothing here to take potshots at, as much as we might like to. You're pretty much right.

GM's biggest problem has been itself. It has always operated as though it were the 1950s, it had about 60% of the market, and the imports were a non-factor. That stopped being true about 1970, but GM and the unions never caught on because doing so would have meant facing reality and abandoning a relationship that had led both to great heights, even though it was not sustainable. In the last 10 years or so of the 20th century, when the seeds of the company's downfall were being sown and when they should have been taking the steps, as painful as they might have been, to make themselves competitve in the current economic environment, they turned a blind eye and just continued to use cash reserves to buy time and labor peace while hoping SUVs would save them. As we saw earlier this year, the money lasts only so long when you aren't making any.

z11375ss

The fact is that the union benefits inked by the big three led to their near demise. The foreign manufacturers are non union. If American automakers could go back in time and undo their self imposed damage what would they look like now? The graft and greed and money exchanged that went on between the unions and the car companies had to be absolutely out of this world. Why else would they have made these deals? Diego, as for your opinion, it is exactly that, opinion. I own 2 500s and have had a good run with 120k and no problems. I like the SHO and can get a base model for about 32 (A plan). I'm looking tomorrow. I'll run any daily driver you got whenever you're ready.

derek nesdoly

Thanks for the diplomatic reply!! Sorry if I offended you,it's just that I think some of these discussions get really "wound up" 'cause members have their own deeply held biases that get in the way of rational dialogue.Having said that,don't get me going on my thot's about my Philadelphia Eagles this season!!

wolfman98

On May 30 , 2009 on the final reunion of the bataan death march japanese ambassador Ichiro Fujisaki apologized to the assembly for the treatment of the prisoners during the march on behalf of the Japanese government and japanese people.

z11375ss

The only thing I want to wind up is my small block. We can keep things civil. I like a good debate, even if I go off half cocked most of the time. I hope the Moderators can recognise this. They usually do. Better late than never on Battan. What a nightmare. I've read some books on that. Wow!

TK-65

45% of the Toyota sold here are from Japan. 100% of the Lexuses sold here came from Japan.

Majority, yes. Most, not by a long shot.

TK-65

Camry interior



Taurus interior



The Taurus is a home run. Bland??? Give me a break.

redoldsman

wolfman98 Apology

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by redoldsman
I think that the deline of GM started in the 70's when Roger Smith was CEO. The guy was a moron. Managment and the unions were both guilty in my opinion and opend the door for the Japanese. Remember that GM had 43% of the market back then. Then they started building cars you could not tell apart. The best example was the last version of the Olds 98. This once magnificant car was turned into a box. Now the Japenese are feeling some heat from the Koreans. I wound up with a Hundai Sonata a couple times when I rented cars. What a great little car and for not much money. I love their new Gensis but can't afford one.
As for the Japanese, I feel very strongly they should have made an apology for the Bataan Death March and that is one reason I will never own a Mitsubishi product. I understand some of the WWII veterans (The Greatest Generation) still harboring ill feelings. They have very deep scars. One of the things that really bugs me is the Chinese. We consume the majority of goods in this country from a communits country. I don't hate them for it because we are the ones that gave it to them.
Now if any of you guys want to take shots at what I have said, go ahead. I will not respond because I am not getting into a pizzing contest with anybody becaue that is not what this site is for. There is one other site that does a good job of that.

On May 30 , 2009 on the final reunion of the bataan death march japanese ambassador Ichiro Fujisaki apologized to the assembly for the treatment of the prisoners during the march on behalf of the Japanese government and japanese people.

Thanks for the update Wolfman98. It was only about 60 years too late. No more than a handful of the survivors are still alive.

delmontcrusier

The main reason those **** mobiles took off and sold so well is the fact they were cheep.We all know they were cheep due to the underpaid these cars are little tin cans on wheels in my opinion.I have seen the crappy bodies just about rust off the car or frame though somehow the turds on wheels seem to keep running.I think many of them are ugly and sound like lanmowers or sewing machines running down the road and don't get me started with the fart cans on these cars I want to do stuff with those things more bad decisions have been made over and over in company after company.We all know we like a decent pay check and our raises and sadly that is why the companys leave and go freign so they can pay less produce more and make better profits.

aliensatemybuick

Not buying a Japanese car because of WW2 is the dumbest thing I've heard on this forum to date. Not even close to the dumbest thing I ever heard on the internet, but definately the dumbest thing on this forum. The Japanese hold no particular distinction when it comes to historical atrocities...if we are going to start going back 50 years or more (or lets say a few hundred), then there aren't going to be a lot of people left NOT owing an apology for something their ancestors may have done.

But American to "support your own", if you like. And also if you like garbage.

delmontcrusier

ok have to admit you last part is either off or confusingI am asuming the first word is suposed to be buy not but.How do you figure garbage some of the styling of the newer vehicals I am not so impressed with but not garbage and not many things are built like the olds we drive anymore that was when vehicles were made.but still many of the american models are still designed better than the **** mowers on the road.

Nilsson

We all know we like a decent pay check and our raises and sadly that is why the companys leave and go freign so they can pay less produce more and make better profits.[/quote]


Yep, we call that free market capitalism.

justinj

Some of you are forgetting history. America made Japan what it is today. Go to the library and read some books about post war Japan. They worked really hard, with our help, to build an industrial economy, and now they are in the same boat as us, with their manufacturing moved overseas.

aliensatemybuick

Yep, a typo. As for my opinion that current American-made cars are garbage, its born of my having owned nothing but till a couple tears ago (oops, another typo. Maybe). The last (and I mean the LAST) American cars my wife and I bought were a 2003 Caddy CTS and a 2005 Dodge Magnum. The first was sold at a loss after 1 year of ownership. The second was successfully lemon lawed. Do you know how bad a car has to be to successfully lemon law one? BAD.