gearheads78

The official rules on the clunker bill is now out. One of the stipulations is we have to pour a chemical concoction inside the motor that destoys it.

citcapp

Guess its time to start collecting blocks and heads. Now I really need to build that shop. Does anyone know where a copy of the bill is posted. News reports are all over the place. Some say the bill only runs thru November or until 1 billion is spent. Need the facts

redoldsman

I have a 99 Expedition that I bought new and now has 134,000 miles on it. I have taken very good care of it (nothing but Mobil 1) and it still looks great. I could probably get more on the clunker bill than I could get on an outright trade. I am not buying anything but if I were, there is no way I would take this perfectly good vehicle in and let it be destroyed. It is just wrong. I will stop here before I start to get political. It is only a few billion more our government is pizzing off.

2blu442

Yes, it would be good to see the acutal bill. The tid bit I read said that all the cars must be crushed, nothing is to be saved or resold. But I'd like to read that in the bill for myself. John

gearheads78

There is 1 billion for this program. We are expecting 10 days until it depleted. What going to be funny is all the dealers leaf holding the bag at the end. Its estimated there will be dealers with 50 on more deals un booked that already have completed deals.

citcapp

There were snippits of the bill in todays paper. Applies to only 84 and above model years and the cars have to average 18 or less miles per gallon. From what I read its pretty restrictive and shouldn't hurt much

Alb

Trying not to be political here but, anytime the government tells us what we have to do.That is being restrictive.
Alb

elcaminodave

I work for a dealership and this is on the CARS website we go onto.

Can a dealer resell the traded-in vehicle?

The CARS Act requires that the trade-in vehicle be crushed or shredded so that it will not be resold for use in the United States or elsewhere as an automobile. The entity crushing or shredding the vehicles in this manner will be allowed to sell some parts of the vehicle prior to crushing or shredding it, but these parts cannot include the engine or the drive train.

The car can not be over 25 years old, must be driveable and registered and insured in the person's name for at least one year.

rocketraider

Agenda driven feel-good politics. Phooey.

I work with a guy who's turning in a perfectly serviceable 89 Chevy 1500 PU on a new KIA, simply because he can get the $4500 for the truck vs about $1500 if he tried to sell it. But he's also one of these whose plans and schemes are always "the way to do things" if you get my drift. I don't argue with him- let him learn things the hard way.

As scarce as good older PU trucks are here, here's another one going down the government slippery slope.

I still believe it is only a matter of time before the government goes after our cars, or at least tries to tax them out of existence.

Doug69Cutlass

At least they are not allowing cars over 25 years old to be brought in and crushed. Maybe the government has a heart for classics?

joe_padavano

HAHAHAHA

Seriously, cars older than that don't have the current EPA mileage ratings, so it's not possible to prove that the car gets less than 18 MPG combined.

Want to know what is eligible? Buick GNs and T-types. All TBI vehicles (wanted to do a low-cost conversion?). All vehicles with 4L80E transmissions. Most vehicles with 200-4R transmissions. 84-up Custom Cruisers.

Someone tell me if scrapping a car and building a new one is energy efficient. And by the way, we're all paying for this.

BosMobile

Hey guys,I'm not so sure about this whole deal,does anyone know of a single person who has actually recieved the 4500?Just curious,but the goverment is not known for ''giving''.I'll beat theres more here than meets the eye.I doubt seriously if your gonna get 4500 for any old piece of crap.BELIVERS?Better read the fine print.IMHO.BO

rocketraider

I doubt it's that as much as it's they realize collector vehicles tend to be owned by OLDER PEOPLE, and OLDER PEOPLE VOTE!!

Politicians are all about self preservation and staying in office. I'll vote against any incumbent I can, because I do not believe politics was ever meant to be a career. Term limits are a good thing.

Lady72nRob71

Wait until he needs to bring home a sheet of plywood from the hardware store...
I hope you laugh at him then and chant "ka - ka - kia!" (like the chia pet tune...)

This bill is completely rediculous for reasons already mentioned, not to mention stupid...

Joeypete

I was terrified when I first heard of this coming out but now I seriously doubt it will have a huge affect on classic automobiles. I went to a junkyard a couple months ago and there were TONS of old cars just like we take pride in on this forum, just sitting there waiting to be picked clean for parts. They have probably been there for years, given up for some reason.

So I highly doubt most of the cars being traded in under this bill will be in excellent condition. They would have just ended up in a heap of dead cars anyhow at some point! lol

joe_padavano

Well, obviously if the car is worth more than $4500, one would be an idiot to use this option. On the other hand, book value for, say, an 80s vintage Custom Cruiser is under $1000. I'm having trouble finding parts like front fenders (which are NOT common with the sedans), trim parts, etc. If these cars get crushed instead of going to a wrecking yard, that makes finding parts even more difficult.

Joeypete

I know, I was amazed at how picked clean all the cars were at the junkyards by me. Found lots of body pieces, but all the interior stuff was gone.

Olds64

Madness. I get tired of BS.

Ultimately, I think the Cash for Clunkers Bill was legislation that was rushed. I know my friend in TX is trading in his 97 Blazer for a newer car. I told him to go to a Chrysler dealership because I heard they are matching the $4500.

Aceshigh

The polar opposite of your statement is Anarchy .

So in the middle we have regulation and governing bodies.

To be totally honest, I'm totally against this bill for several reasons.
They are subsidizing the PRIVATELY OWNED vehicle sector with taxpayer funds.
Where does that taxpayer money come from?? More taxations to replace it.
So in essence, this could be considered their 2nd Bailout.

The only difference here is......
This one is INTEREST FREE, and completely free from payback. Nice huh ???
Every taxpayer who does NOT utilize this program is socializing the private
automobile sectors stimulation with funds.

Gov = Win - They lose nothing. Tax revenue continues coming in.
Auto Manufacturers = Win - Free money.....
Taxpayer = Lose (as usual)

Oldsguy

Bad idea, not going to do it.

elcaminodave

It may help manufacturers, but not much help for dealers. I work for a GM dealer and it is going to be a nightmare for us. As with all government programs, the paperwork we have to fill out is ridiculous. We are concerned we will not be able to get paid for all of the sales because of some government loophole. One lost payment of $3500.00-$4500.00 is much more than the profit we can make on the potential increase in sales. We are seriously considering not participating in the program.

Aceshigh

I can DEFINITELY see the risk involved on the dealer end.

If you sell just 25 cars under this program and the Govt renigs on those
thousands of dollars per car.....that's a total loss for dealers for each
car the Govt doesn't pay on.

wolfman98

I was watching the news about some details on this program and it runs from July to Nov. or until money runs out. In order to qualify for the program it has to be registered and insured in your name for a least 1 year previous to trade-in so you can't drag in any old clunker.Cannot be more than 25 years old and has to get 18 mpg or worse and you have to trade in on one that gets 22 mpg or better? Not exactly sure about that last bit but it has to be worse on mpg I know. So you are looking at daily drivers back to 84. You won't get the full 4500 cause dealers can charge you whatever it costs them to have car towed to scrapyard , probably 50-100 bucks? I did not hear anything about if those cars have to be crushed? Has anyone heard that it was part of this legislation?

Olds64

That is interesting that the dealership owner is even considering this. I would think dealerships would have no choice, especially since Uncle Sam just saved them from banckruptcy and liquidation.

elcaminodave

Participation is up to individual dealers. In order to participate, a dealer has to register on the CARS site. That was an experience in itself. When the government said we could register, the site was hard to get onto and then after entering a bunch of information, the site would freeze up with no warning and you would have to start over. We started trying before 8:00 Friday morning and were not successful until Saturday morning. Even though we are registered, we may still not participate. The big problem now is finding disposal sites that know what is going on. We do not get paid until we submit disposal site information. I am now reading a 136 page government document that tells us what we have to do to get paid. Our government at work!!!!!

2blu442

Bruce, this was up near the beginning of the thread. So yes they must be crushed for the dealer to fulfill the requirements of the program.

Those of you who have read many of my posts may remember I work for the Federal Government in Forestry. I have pride in my job and what I do, but that's not the case with every employee and agency I see. I'm very skeptical of how this and many other programs will use our tax dollars for the good of the country. How many new government employees will have to be hired to manage this program and the red tape it surely has? When we sell timber to be logged, and mills to process the wood we create jobs and provide wood products to the American people. But these kinds of government positions will just suck up more tax dollars without adding to the national coffers. This is not good policy on so many levels.

wolfman98

Would that be some of that RRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDD TTTTTTTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEE ?????????: rolleyes:

elcaminodave

While reading the 136 page document, I found it interesting that it is going to cost $50 million to administer the program.

csstrux

Leave it to the government to waste resources on worthless programs... Remember this kind of crap in 2010, Or we will be seeing more of it.

Redog

I guess I'm not going to be getting my next project car then

BTW I'm very impressed with the new 4 cyl eco cars that are comming out now, with thier 30 to 35 MPG motors.

Did I forget to mention that my V6 Alero gets 32 to 34.5 MPG on the highway and is a hell of a lot faster, and more fun than a 4 banger that goes from 0-60 in 22 seconds

Aceshigh

Amazing......considering they were only rated for 170hp and 27mpg hwy.
You sure you didn't pull the MPG figures for the 4 banger??

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

The 2009 Honda CIVIC SI gets the same EPA rated MPG and has 200hp. = faster
The 2009 Honda Accord 3.5L gets the same EPA MPG ratings with 100hp more = way faster
The 2009 Chevrolet Cobalt SS (260hp turbo Ecotec 4cyl) = Extremely faster
is the fastest FWD car around the Nurburgring......and gets better MPG.

Just sayin....... don't kid yourself when you pull up next to any of those
thinking you have a faster and more efficient car.....or you'll get a rude wake up call.

wolfman98

I have already seen ads on tv from Chrysler and Toyota for the program.Chrysler is offering an additional 4500 on some models and Toyota says that it has 25 models that qualify for the program. I am sure that soon we will see ads from other car companies since I can't see how in this market they can affords to stay out. Ford I am not sure about cause they actually made money last quarter , but they probably will participate.There are a lot of old beaters around here that should be pulled off the road but probably won't cause the owners are poor and could not afford to trade in on a new car.I have a 90 Asrto van that gets bad fuel milage now and is much worse than when it was new.What would happen to cars that for instance got 19 mpg new but are old and get much worse fuel mpg now. They probably would not qualify? even though as you drive it in they are killing all the mosquitos and flying insects in the area

Olds64

Ultimately, this is just bad policy. It is just an additional handout from the government to the auto manufacturers.

Redog

You got the 170 hp right but the 27 mpg is wrong. Stock from the factory in 2000 my Alero was rated at 170 hp / 200 ftlbs 28 city and 32 highway. That did drop in later years, but my car is not a later year car. Also from the factory the car ran 16.20's in the 1/4 mile

Now the car's best is 14.53 and 14.69 (that's on You Tube) and the other video on You Tube show my Alero running 14's 6 times one right after another and the times keep dropping.

Exact HP and ft lbs are unknown until I can get the car on the Dyno at the wife's school, but with those numbers, the car should be putting down in the area of 197 to 201 hp at the wheels, assuming 20% drive train loss you're talking about 236 to 241 hp overall. Torque is high enough to break one of the puny 4T45 trannies, and I think it's working on the next one (need to do that 4T65 swap)

I could be off with those numbers, but with all the different web pages I reseached (not the stuipd rice sites either that claim a 200 hp gain from a intake and 300 hp gain from different headlight bulbs, yes they are out there) I'm pretty much in the ball park. A lot of guys I race with in the points series argee with those numbers too. The car's race weight is 3280 to 3340 pending on cargo that day.

Trust me, I know what I'm faster than and what I'm not. I've spooked a few guys that had "fast" cars. I ran agasint a 2006 Mustang with the 4.6 in it. Intake and exhaust. Did I win, no, but it was time shots so winning/losing didn't matter, but I tree'd the guy and up to the 1/8 mile was ahead the entire time. The run ended with my front bumper even with his back bumper. First round he was pulling up next to me and pulled in behind me so he didn't have to race.

Got a guy in a WRX (not and STi) once as well. They run 14.3 to 14.8 in the 1/4 mile. That one was neck and neck until I just let off the gas. I'm embarressed to say that one was a street race, but once I hit 90, I knew we had gone a 1/4 mile and I don't know who actually won. Of course the kid knew who won, he did, because he stayed in it

Jamesbo

IMHO [and Warren Buffet's] the only way out of this economic mess is for the government to inflate the dollar. Projects like this, TARP money thrown around and other crazy recovery projects are putting us well on our way to double diget inflation. In about a year and a half. It's gonna hit the fan and it's going to make the Carter days seem like walk in the park.

Joeypete

I thought we weren't supposed to discuss politics in the forum...it's getting awfully "red" in here....LOL

Aceshigh

Then you can't quote stock MPG numbers.
I don't see any motors that get ~30-40% hp gains and keep factory
Pre-2008 EPA ratings which were incorrect to begin with. Not unless
they are turbo'd > In which case, anyone can turbo a motor.

I see ricers play this claim all the time dude......trust me.
Highly modified 4 bangers trying to say they're still getting 40mpg
You're talking about a full 2 seconds in the 1/4 here.....

You are not going to get the same MPG with a highly modified engine.
No one does. With that being said, anyone can modify an engine, so claiming
you're faster then any NEW 4 cylinder while getting 34mpg is really fantasy.

Alero's are nice cars, but lets keep it real here.
BTW - If you beat an AWD WRX, I'd have to give you props.
I've seen some nicely done Alero GLS's.

wolfman98

WELL I HAD A 4 BANGER THAT RAN 10.55 IN A 1/4 MILE AND I KNOW THAT I WAS STILL GETTING 40MPG. did I mention it was a Yamaha FJ1200

Aceshigh

now THAT I can believe.

My Hayabusa gets 50mpg ALL HIGHWAY, and does 9.x in the 1/4 .....in the magazines anyways. LOL
I took it to the track, and I couldn't touch that time.....I suck.

I average about 33-35mpg tho because I goose it all day long riding it and I live in the Chicago burbs....
So I'm never really on the Hwy much. (booooo hissss.....yes it's a Jap bike, but I own an '05 Dyna Wide Glide too)

wolfman98

Cool I bought my FJ brand new in 1986 and took it to 170mph on the highway , the hyabusa is supposed to be capable of 191. Ever have the guts to try it? Just one thing don't stick your head up cause it might rip the helmet right off your head , maybe with your head in it.