Koda

I've been thinking about driving on ice, what with that thread about the huge pileups in Michigan. I got the joy of sliding off the road last week on my way home from Indy. What happened was the temperature was dropping ahead of what I had read it would do, and the sleet solidified, and tapping the gas to see if you had traction was not a good idea. Didn't hit anyone since I had enough sense not to be near people on the road, spun out in the median, then got back on my way.

Right now I'm running a small RWD pickup with an open rear, no 4x4, with a bed cover and 300 lbs of sandbags in the back. Tires are old all seasons. I have another set of repainted wheels which I will get new all seasons on here soon; I may just try to sneak through the rest of the winter then do it, then I will repaint my current rims (got some rust) and put a set of snow tires on them. Working on the TPMS sensor issue to keep the car truck understanding them all; I have a plan.

So, questions. Snow tires help on snow, I assume they do on ice? Old people from the bias era say just do your drive tires, everyone else says put snow tires on all four? My opinion is all 4. RWD, especially no limited slip sucks getting going, but at least it doesn't kick your tail around like LSD does if you break traction while underway. However, I assume most cars stop the same on ice, regardless of FWD or RWD, which is to say, badly.

Ice driving. I know the first thing is to drive much more slowly, and avoid sudden hard steering or hard braking or gas. I've downshifted before to slow down, but had to clutch in because the back end started fishtailing. Is the idea just to drive slow, stay well away from people, and aim the car carefully?

Here in lower Indiana, it is either above freezing, crappy weather above freezing, crappy weather at or just below freezing, or clear and cold. If the ground and the air is below freezing, we get no ice. If both are above, we get no ice. If one or both is near, we get some ice.

I'm not a good winter driver; I'm a native Floridian, but I do like to think worrying about it, putting proper vehicle setups together, and just not going out when it's questionable will help me. I do have a tow strap and other things. I intend to get a secondhand 4x4 next year for a multitude of jobs, including bad weather days.

The spin out wasn't bad, threw a lot of mud and tapped a roadsign with the rear bumper, so my 8 year old truck has a small dent there now. I've managed to only slide off the road 3 times in those years, but I don't like it, so please advise me on the art of ice driving.

oldcutlass

Years ago we had studded snowtires which helped a bit on ice. Most states outlawed them because they chewed up the roads and would fling the studs at high velosity. There is no safe way to drive on ice other than to creep along very slowly if you have to be out. If you don't have to be out, just park your hiney on the couch and stay off the roads.

I've always put snowtires on the drive wheels only.

Professur

Ok, to start, remember that everyone has an opinion and everyone thinks their opinion is right.

Old snow tires were designed to bite into snow and dig down to gain traction. That's seldom the case anymore. Studs were intended to dig into ice. Great if you live in the country where the roads aren't scraped and salted back down to the black top within hours of any snowfall. Not really much use any other time.

Today, science has intervened. New rubber compounds, and tread design has made 'snow tires' and studs obsolete for 95% of us. Today's winter tires are designed to ride on top of the snow, packing it and relying to those thin razor cuts (called sipes) to bite in across a much wider area than any one steel stud would. Some tires (Blizzaks) use a foamed rubber tread to provide millions of microscopic ridges for this purpose. Some (Toyo) add an abrasive (crushed walnut shells, same stuff they're using for media blasting now) to the rubber mix.

Personally, I want winter tires on all four corners. Given that I keep my cars forever, tire wear is tire wear. Either I'm wearing one set of tires for 12 months, or 2 sets for 6 months each .. in the long run it comes out the same. But for six of those months, I'm using an engineered rubber compound that is more flexible in the cold. But, back in the day .. I was always told that if I was only going to put 2 winters, put them on the back where the weight was less, and fishtailing was possible. As that person put it ... you can't steer the back end, so you'd damn well better make sure it stays where you put it. Front wheel or rear wheel drive. When I commented about most breaking power being in the front, the steering was in the front, and (FWD) the power was in the front ... he said "Then I'd better put a pair of winters up front then too, hadn't I? "


Worth reading http://www.wheels.ca/news/getting-a-...re-technology/

oldcutlass

Interesting article

cutlassjoe

I have a 2012 Chrysler 300 RWD with the really nice chrome rims and lower profile tires. Ran it last year on these tires and if there was more than 2-3 inches of snow it was a challenge to say the least. this year I got a set of 17" rims and Cooper snow tires on all four corners. They cost about $800.00 out the door and installed. I also put about 135 lbs of sand in the trunk. Wow what a difference this makes. The way the car drives and handles in the snow is incredible. I will never drive it without snow tires again.


There was a post on facebook recently. It was a pic of a bunch of cars all wadded up in the median of a highway. The caption read "Summer tire club meeting this afternoon in the median." I thought it was pretty funny.

MDchanic

First off, the only tire that will really save you on ice is a studded snow.
Plenty of people around here use them, but, as the Prof. says, if you keep to paved roads and the locality plows reliably, then they're very noisy overkill.
If you're up on a mountain, or encounter flat-out ice a lot, though, they're essential.

For regular snow, modern snow tires with a modern rubber compound work amazingly well.
All-seasons aren't too bad for light snow, but they're nowhere near as solid as real snow tires.
Modern snow tires, as the Prof. said, are also MUCH better on ice than all-seasons, or than older snow tires.
Note that most modern snow tires with special rubber compounds do not use the special rubber all the way through (for stability reasons, I believe). Only about half the tread is the grippy compound that is good on ice, so if you spot a set only partially worn for a good price, be careful.

If I had the option, I would always use four snow tires at a time - you want traction both in your steering and your driving wheels (not to mention your stopping and slowing down wheels).
If I were in a pinch, I would put the snows on the back, both to give me the traction to move forward, and to keep the back a bit more planted - I can deal with predictable understeer from poor front tire traction a whole lot better than surprise oversteer from poor rear tire traction.

As for driving on ice, the best and most simple solution is: Don't.
Actual, true ice (what we call "black ice" up here) provides exactly no traction. If you stop the car on it and get out, you will fall on your face (I have seen this happen more than once - it's funny every time, if you're not the one falling. I have also seen cars stop and slide sideways down a road.). When driving on it, you have very close to zero control over your car's trajectory. Usually it occurs in patches, and if you're aware that you're on it, you need to avoid any input that might change your velocity if at all possible, and use the minimum possible input if you absolutely have to. Recognizing that you're on it is vitally important, because you don't want to find out by surprise. I really like the traction control on my BMW for this reason, because it lights an orange lamp when it's working, and it's more sensitive than my butt, so if I'm driving in circumstances where I might encounter black ice, I give the throttle the tiniest bump from time to time, and if I get a light, I plot my course as close to a straight line as possible.
If you (or I) find yourself on ice in a curve, or with a sudden need to stop, though, it's pretty much all over - you're riding a brick to the destination that physics has assigned it.

Bottom line: If you're not comfortable with the risks of driving on ice, just stop somewhere if you find any and wait for the salt truck. Better to spend two hours having a cup of coffee and watching the rain than 2 hours in a ditch, sitting on your dome light, wondering how so much dirt ever got in all those places under your dashboard, and hoping that the cab of the tow truck is heated.

- Eric

don71

I'm a believer that performing doughnuts in a large empty parking lot will offer experience. With permission of course. It might be fun too, and better to know what 4000 lbs of inertia feels like in a somewhat controlled environment.

I'm serious. Young and seasoned drivers should have at least one opportunity to do this.

Other than that, I'm not much help.

+1 four snow tires when ever possible.

Hairy Olds

They are expensive but Blizzaks are the tire for sure footedness on ice and snow plus a little common sense helps.

m371961

Ice is the one to avoid as Eric says. The only thing that gives control on it is studs or chains. Here studs can be ran from Oct to April. A lot of people put studded tires on their front wheel drive cars, but this is a rural area.

Professur

Failing this (nanny state ) many driving schools offer skid pan training. One local to me has a vehicle riding a cradle they use to reduce the weight on the tires to suspension contact only. Makes for one hairy ride ... but the skills learned are invaluable. Driving is 90% reflex. You only develop reflexes one way ... by doing.

MDchanic

I make sure to get out on a parking lot at the first snowfall every year, preferably with all of the cars I may be driving that winter. You HAVE to refresh the habits of driving out of bad traction situations, or they fade. It only takes a few minutes. I do it with traction control on and off.

BUT, these skills will be of little use on actual ice - you need to have SOME traction to have any control at all.

- Eric

z11375ss

I have a 2011 Taurus SHO (4 wheel drive) with Blizzaks on all four corners. I have NEVER gotten stuck. Ice, a different matter. I live in a suburb of Chi so they salt the bejesus out of everything. Those Blizzaks are BA.

rustyroger

Sounds like lower Indiana winters are something like what we would consider a bad but not terrible winter.
If you must travel I guess putting on some top quality winter tires is the thing to do.
But like a lot of others have said, unless you have a true emergency when the roads are iced, stay home. Call 911 (it's a true emergency, right?) and leave it the guys who are trained and equipped for the conditions. They don't need your wife in labor in a ditch somewhere, or your kid with a broken arm having to be cut out of your car or truck.

Roger.

bccan

Blizzak fan here too, been using them for 20 years on multiple cars. The only time I drive @ speed limit is in snowy conditions that many cars & even 4WD pickups/SUVs are nearly paralyzed in. As for ice they help but only studs or "chains" are truly effective. My daughters Volvo 240 has studded Hakkapelitas on it & she made sure to tell me how awesome they were after driving in first storm this season. The Volvo 240 (peg legger) would be a strong contender in any worst winter driving capability contest. If encountering ice the 2 most important things are light throttle/higher gear & don't turn the car. Cut curves across, not around any apex. Even in slippery snow you can induce spin when you rotate ends of the car around it's axis, think of a game board spinner.

I would always use 4 tires though many of us survived driving our rwd domestics back in the day only putting snows on the rear.

For "emergency" use, do a search for textile or fabric tire chains, they are a pretty cool idea that could help in a tough spot.

twintracks

When I find myself on slick roads, I'll often drive with 2 wheels in the snow, or dirt on the edge of the road. The slickest part of a lane is always the part where most of the traffic has run. That said, riding the edge is not recommended if the snow is heavy, deep slush. The slush can grab your car and throw you into the ditch.
If you are driving at night, watch for the taillights of the car in front of you. If you can see them reflecting like mirror; 1. You may be on black ice, and 2. You are too close to the car in front of you.
I also like to test the road surface, a skill my dad taught me. Slow down, and with no cars around, stab the brakes, and see what happens. If you stop, fine. If you slide; 1. You are on ice, and 2. You get to practice controlling the car in a slide. Please don't try this in the city. This is a rural country road thing only.
On slick roads, it's not the going that's the biggest issue, it's the stopping!
Lastly, buy an old Toronado. The greatest (non 4x4) snow vehicle ever made.

allyolds68

Like a few others have said, a little practice in a parking lot gives you great experience. My personal car is a 2011 Enclave. My last company truck was a 2010 chevy 1500, my current is a 2013 Dodge 1500. The traction control in the Dodge is much better and more predictible than the Chevy. The Buick's system is totally different than either of the pickups. The best by far of the three is the Dodge. The worst was the Chevy.

oldcutlass

On a side note, its not my driving on slick roads that concern me, it's all the other idiots out there.

Destructor

Since I was a teenager I've done donuts in the winter and other antics in empty parking lots, it is a good way to get a feel of how your car reacts to steering, gas and braking on snow/ice. Other than my 72 Eldorado I've always driven RWD. My two Grand Marquis are terrible in the snow, mostly getting traction to start off, they ride and steer well enough and traction control helps while underway but not much starting off, sometimes it has to be shut off. Every year I say I'll buy snow tires and never do. Next year my commute to the train station will be a bit more so I have more reason to get snow tires.

oldsmobiledave

The SHO is AWD not 4WD

Run to Rund

The best snow tires have the mountain/snowflake rating on the sidewall; some have provisions for studs.

Macadoo

I would only add NOT to look to other drivers as a way to gauge the roads. Just last week I was heading down I55 doing about 60, which I felt was too fast, but everyone was flying by me. I was just about to step it up when a truck passed me and suddenly fishtailed all over the road, ending in the ditch. Trust your instincts.
Don't expect better handling out of a 4X4. I drive a '99 Dodge 1500 Sport 4X4. It's great in deep snow but otherwise lacks control.

Professur

Best? There are some really crappy ones sporting that tag too.

Koda

This is all very good advice. I will mount 4 snow tires for my primary vehicle on my second set of rims and drive carefully with the above particulars.

If I acquire a 4x4 truck for a hunting/towing/deep snow vehicle, what are peoples' thoughts on Mud/Snow tires? The little truck will have 2 sets of rims, one with all weathers, and one with snows, but perhaps this second vehicle could do what I want it to do with a particular set of tires?

Macadoo

I would suggest sticking with the stock tire size, whatever tread pattern you decide on. Seems every used truck I've bought has had over-sized tires. Steering is sloppy and components wear out more quickly.

rustyroger

I bet the ride quality was crap as well?.

Roger.

Macadoo

Got that right.

cherokeepeople

i thought this thread was about driving on ice.back 30 yrs ago we always went out on the lake in the winter with my old 65 pontiac catalina 2dr post.fly across the ice crank the wheel and punch it.we would fly across the ice spinning around in circles.it was a blast.