sad
November 6th, 2014, 06:33 PM
#1
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November 6th, 2014, 08:40 PM
#11
Proud Viet Nam Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Rowlett, TX
Posts: 9,946
Hey, the guy says you can rebuild the car. He couldn't say that if it wasn't true could he. What a shame to see that happen to such a rare and nice car. I am surprised it has bid to over $3,000 and has not hit the reserve.
November 6th, 2014, 09:40 PM
#13
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Posts: 2,620
Then there are some who feel this is fraudulent.
November 6th, 2014, 10:30 PM
#14
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 2,790
I would not restore the car.
First reason I would not restore it is the high heat cycle the car went through!
The second reason was it cooled down by the fireman ?
Third cost more than the car is worth!
Fourth would be very little original left of the car!
Tag swap on to a rust free 68 442 M built car ?????????????
Sad for the original owners that lost there car
First reason I would not restore it is the high heat cycle the car went through!
The second reason was it cooled down by the fireman ?
Third cost more than the car is worth!
Fourth would be very little original left of the car!
Tag swap on to a rust free 68 442 M built car ?????????????
Sad for the original owners that lost there car
Last edited by Bernhard; November 6th, 2014 at 10:40 PM.
November 7th, 2014, 03:19 AM
#15
'87 Delta 88 Royale
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Margate, England
Posts: 2,513
To me this would be fine for the new owner to custom build it however he wants to. No doubt if he made something significantly different to the original car it would be subject to harsh criticism from those who weren't aware of its history.
There was a similar outcry when someone showed up at a British show in a heavily modified '50s Lincoln. What most people were unaware of was that it had been a fine original car, "Cream Puff car" as it would be called over here.
Until some uninsured, unlicenced scumbag cab driver ploughed into it one cruise night and wrecked it, bent chassis, no sheet metal undamaged, a complete mess.
But the owner, rather than scrap it, rebuilt it with a roof chop, frenched lights and other custom modifications as he saw fit. As he said, he couldn't get the sheet metal anywhere, and the twisted chassis, although straightened out, had braces welded in so it wasn't feasible to restore, not for many times the cars worth anyway.
Perhaps next time we see a classic that has been turned into a lowrider or rat rod, we might consider that someone has rescued something destined for the crusher.
Of course perfectly good cars have been cut up, and I deplore this, but perhaps we shouldn't condemn them until we know the cars history.
Roger.
There was a similar outcry when someone showed up at a British show in a heavily modified '50s Lincoln. What most people were unaware of was that it had been a fine original car, "Cream Puff car" as it would be called over here.
Until some uninsured, unlicenced scumbag cab driver ploughed into it one cruise night and wrecked it, bent chassis, no sheet metal undamaged, a complete mess.
But the owner, rather than scrap it, rebuilt it with a roof chop, frenched lights and other custom modifications as he saw fit. As he said, he couldn't get the sheet metal anywhere, and the twisted chassis, although straightened out, had braces welded in so it wasn't feasible to restore, not for many times the cars worth anyway.
Perhaps next time we see a classic that has been turned into a lowrider or rat rod, we might consider that someone has rescued something destined for the crusher.
Of course perfectly good cars have been cut up, and I deplore this, but perhaps we shouldn't condemn them until we know the cars history.
Roger.
November 7th, 2014, 08:01 AM
#17
Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Poteau, Ok
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Considering what a restored one has the capabilty of going for, it may be advantagious to restore it. I know in years past the sheet metal may be unusable, I wonder if there has been any improvement in sealers and paints to use in this case.
November 7th, 2014, 08:13 AM
#18
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Location: NEW HARTFORD CT
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if the floors are not warped due to the heat I would consider such.
Supposedly from what I understand acid dip then some type of epoxy seal to follow. This what I have heard
November 7th, 2014, 09:06 AM
#19
Shoveling Snow
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Yoder-Hey-Land
Posts: 2,476
At some point in time in my view yes the car is a total loss and is lost to the elements of time. The paperwork is the real value in the sale and a few engine parts.
November 7th, 2014, 09:12 AM
#20
CH3NO2 LEARN IT BURN IT
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Land of Taxes
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It got hot enough to "blue" the SS and chrome. This ones ....sorry... toast. Have to see it up close to be real sure. If the body to frame bushings are melted that means warpage in the important structures. Then the fact that the metal was quenched when hot. That will make some things pretty brittle and potentially a safety issue...frame, roof structures etc...Decent price for what this is...a parts donor. Engine trans and diff worth that.
I will never understand why when a car is in storage that the batteries are not removed and put on a trickle somewhere safe. At minimum use a battery disconnect.
I will never understand why when a car is in storage that the batteries are not removed and put on a trickle somewhere safe. At minimum use a battery disconnect.
November 7th, 2014, 10:09 AM
#22
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilmington, Delaware
Posts: 225
It seems whenever I sell a car on eBay I always get the question as to whether she'll make the drive to their house without any breakdowns. I'm tempted to ask the seller the same question on this one.
Chris
Chris
November 7th, 2014, 10:46 AM
#23
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 2,790
A documented tag swap to save a piece of history or a tribute car with some link to a real H/O.
I have no problem with it as long as it is clear to all what the car really is.
Hate to see any go to the crusher.
I have no problem with it as long as it is clear to all what the car really is.
Hate to see any go to the crusher.
November 7th, 2014, 10:55 AM
#24
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November 7th, 2014, 11:04 AM
#25
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Location: Seneca Falls, NY
Posts: 5,258
Of course it's restorable
I'm sure that cowl can be saved and I'm pretty sure they repro cowl tags.
I'll bet the frame is good too.
If you guys really wanted to ensure that this car has a documented history of the damage you'd post this number:
so it can be searched for the rest of internet eternity 
I'm sure that cowl can be saved and I'm pretty sure they repro cowl tags.
I'll bet the frame is good too. If you guys really wanted to ensure that this car has a documented history of the damage you'd post this number:
344878M389636
November 7th, 2014, 12:15 PM
#27
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Posts: 3,574
It got hot enough to "blue" the SS and chrome. This ones ....sorry... toast. Have to see it up close to be real sure. If the body to frame bushings are melted that means warpage in the important structures. Then the fact that the metal was quenched when hot. That will make some things pretty brittle and potentially a safety issue...frame, roof structures etc...Decent price for what this is...a parts donor. Engine trans and diff worth that.
I will never understand why when a car is in storage that the batteries are not removed and put on a trickle somewhere safe. At minimum use a battery disconnect.
I will never understand why when a car is in storage that the batteries are not removed and put on a trickle somewhere safe. At minimum use a battery disconnect.
November 7th, 2014, 12:36 PM
#28
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Location: maryland
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Now that I can take my time and type rather than fool with trying to do it in a phone, I will add a few thoughts:
If the breakdown of the hardtops with A/C vs. non-A/C, this is a pretty rare and desirable unit....(we knew that) and the drivetrain is of value, of course MORE value if tied to a car that "matches" the all-important numbers.
I would think the sheet metal is useless---unless a new product has been developed that I am unaware of, I don't think any paint will ever adhere properly. As for using the frame-?- not unless a qualified metallurgist has performed tests and determined it to be sound. I've seen "hotter" fire jobs than this, so testing would be worthwhile and might possibly yield favorable results.
If the car IS resurrected, which will most likely require some type of re-body, hiding that fact will be near impossible now that it has been advertised worldwide. A well-documented restoration coupled with the original paperwork will give this car a new lease on life.
I wouldn't be shocked if the car ISN'T restored, but left in it's present state and displayed as such. I visited the Peter Mullin Museum in California a couple of years ago, and in on display there was a Bugatti that was found in the bottom of a lake. The car had a very interesting history and was not restored---literally drug from the bottom of a lake and on display---actually, pretty neat.
And lastly....I NEVER heard of any showroom tuned '68 Hurst Olds running 13.24!!!
If the breakdown of the hardtops with A/C vs. non-A/C, this is a pretty rare and desirable unit....(we knew that) and the drivetrain is of value, of course MORE value if tied to a car that "matches" the all-important numbers.
I would think the sheet metal is useless---unless a new product has been developed that I am unaware of, I don't think any paint will ever adhere properly. As for using the frame-?- not unless a qualified metallurgist has performed tests and determined it to be sound. I've seen "hotter" fire jobs than this, so testing would be worthwhile and might possibly yield favorable results.
If the car IS resurrected, which will most likely require some type of re-body, hiding that fact will be near impossible now that it has been advertised worldwide. A well-documented restoration coupled with the original paperwork will give this car a new lease on life.
I wouldn't be shocked if the car ISN'T restored, but left in it's present state and displayed as such. I visited the Peter Mullin Museum in California a couple of years ago, and in on display there was a Bugatti that was found in the bottom of a lake. The car had a very interesting history and was not restored---literally drug from the bottom of a lake and on display---actually, pretty neat.
And lastly....I NEVER heard of any showroom tuned '68 Hurst Olds running 13.24!!!
November 7th, 2014, 12:59 PM
#30
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,574
Now that I can take my time and type rather than fool with trying to do it in a phone, I will add a few thoughts:
If the breakdown of the hardtops with A/C vs. non-A/C, this is a pretty rare and desirable unit....(we knew that) and the drivetrain is of value, of course MORE value if tied to a car that "matches" the all-important numbers.
I would think the sheet metal is useless---unless a new product has been developed that I am unaware of, I don't think any paint will ever adhere properly. As for using the frame-?- not unless a qualified metallurgist has performed tests and determined it to be sound. I've seen "hotter" fire jobs than this, so testing would be worthwhile and might possibly yield favorable results.
If the car IS resurrected, which will most likely require some type of re-body, hiding that fact will be near impossible now that it has been advertised worldwide. A well-documented restoration coupled with the original paperwork will give this car a new lease on life.
I wouldn't be shocked if the car ISN'T restored, but left in it's present state and displayed as such. I visited the Peter Mullin Museum in California a couple of years ago, and in on display there was a Bugatti that was found in the bottom of a lake. The car had a very interesting history and was not restored---literally drug from the bottom of a lake and on display---actually, pretty neat.
And lastly....I NEVER heard of any showroom tuned '68 Hurst Olds running 13.24!!!
If the breakdown of the hardtops with A/C vs. non-A/C, this is a pretty rare and desirable unit....(we knew that) and the drivetrain is of value, of course MORE value if tied to a car that "matches" the all-important numbers.
I would think the sheet metal is useless---unless a new product has been developed that I am unaware of, I don't think any paint will ever adhere properly. As for using the frame-?- not unless a qualified metallurgist has performed tests and determined it to be sound. I've seen "hotter" fire jobs than this, so testing would be worthwhile and might possibly yield favorable results.
If the car IS resurrected, which will most likely require some type of re-body, hiding that fact will be near impossible now that it has been advertised worldwide. A well-documented restoration coupled with the original paperwork will give this car a new lease on life.
I wouldn't be shocked if the car ISN'T restored, but left in it's present state and displayed as such. I visited the Peter Mullin Museum in California a couple of years ago, and in on display there was a Bugatti that was found in the bottom of a lake. The car had a very interesting history and was not restored---literally drug from the bottom of a lake and on display---actually, pretty neat.
And lastly....I NEVER heard of any showroom tuned '68 Hurst Olds running 13.24!!!
November 7th, 2014, 01:14 PM
#31
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Charleston, West Virginia
Posts: 1,190
Anyone who saw the thread about my car knows my feelings on this subject.
This is a special, high value, matching number car with documentation.
Potential for fraud is high.
Considering the degree of heat to which this car was obviously exposed,
it would be a large miracle if the sheet metal was not warped beyond restoring.
What could be salvaged from the original car other than the drive train and possibly the frame?
To resurrect this car would almost definitely require, rebodying.
To keep everyone honest, if it IS resurrected OR sold as-is, it should have the title converted to a salvage title.
As was discussed before, in many states, including mine, it is technically illegal to do it any other way.
I have to suspect the restoration shop selling the car and offering to do a restoration, will quietly rebody it
and keep the original title as I've said I wish to do with mine.
As I've stated before, intent is a very big factor in how it's handled.
This is a special, high value, matching number car with documentation.
Potential for fraud is high.
Considering the degree of heat to which this car was obviously exposed,
it would be a large miracle if the sheet metal was not warped beyond restoring.
What could be salvaged from the original car other than the drive train and possibly the frame?
To resurrect this car would almost definitely require, rebodying.
To keep everyone honest, if it IS resurrected OR sold as-is, it should have the title converted to a salvage title.
As was discussed before, in many states, including mine, it is technically illegal to do it any other way.
I have to suspect the restoration shop selling the car and offering to do a restoration, will quietly rebody it
and keep the original title as I've said I wish to do with mine.
As I've stated before, intent is a very big factor in how it's handled.
Last edited by 67442nut; November 7th, 2014 at 01:59 PM.
November 7th, 2014, 01:40 PM
#32
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,574
Anyone who saw the thread about my car knows my feelings on this subject.
This is a special, high value, matching number car with documentation.
Potential for fraud is high.
Considering the degree of heat to which this car was obviously exposed,
it would be a large miracle if the sheet metal was not warped beyond restoring.
What could be salvaged from the original case other than the drive train and possibly the frame?
To resurrect this car would almost definitely require, rebodying.
To keep everyone honest, if it IS resurrected OR sold as-is, it should have the title converted to a salvage title.
As was discussed before, in many states, including mine, it is technically illegal to do it any other way.
I have to suspect the restoration shop selling the car and offering to do a restoration, will quietly rebody it
and keep the original title as I've said I wish to do with mine.
As I've stated before, intent is a very big factor in how it's handled.
This is a special, high value, matching number car with documentation.
Potential for fraud is high.
Considering the degree of heat to which this car was obviously exposed,
it would be a large miracle if the sheet metal was not warped beyond restoring.
What could be salvaged from the original case other than the drive train and possibly the frame?
To resurrect this car would almost definitely require, rebodying.
To keep everyone honest, if it IS resurrected OR sold as-is, it should have the title converted to a salvage title.
As was discussed before, in many states, including mine, it is technically illegal to do it any other way.
I have to suspect the restoration shop selling the car and offering to do a restoration, will quietly rebody it
and keep the original title as I've said I wish to do with mine.
As I've stated before, intent is a very big factor in how it's handled.
November 7th, 2014, 02:22 PM
#33
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Charleston, West Virginia
Posts: 1,190
If it wasn't insured then it will not carry a salvage title and as far as heat! Did you notice the drivers door glass was shattered not melted. Some of you guys really should talk to someone who has reworked this type off stuff not give your .02 There are three here who stated stuff that isn't correct.I have worked on sheet metal that was burnt not warped and paint was applied and didn't have any problems. Can this car be saved maybe. I know you guys may take this wrong i hope not.
Shifter **** and window crank ***** are not melted, although steering wheel is.
Upholstery is not totally burned either, but, a lot depends on where the heat was the most intense.
I've worked smaller areas of overheated sheet metal, heated to a lesser degree than this
and it was warped to the point of requiring a lot of time to be right.
If MIG welding a patch panel into an otherwise good panel can create enough heat to warp it,
I have to think the chances of a car that was hot enough to do the damage in the pics
being salvageable aren't good.
However, even though I had to roll my eyes on the "very salvageable",
the restorer has the advantage of a close up, first hand inspection and is seeing a relatively smooth body.
I hope you're right. I'd hate to see 1 of 515 '68 H/O's cease to exist or have a corrupt history.
Last edited by 67442nut; November 7th, 2014 at 02:27 PM.
November 7th, 2014, 03:07 PM
#34
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 2,790
The sheet metal could be brought back into shape and I don't see any paint problems if the surface is prepped right.
The issue I have would be the metal and what state is it in!
When metal gets heated it changes its structure, when metal is heated and cooled rapidly it changes it structure again.
When I was in trade school they drummed in to us that we must return the car to pre -collision / pre- damage condition.
This means the car must drive and crash as it would have when it was new.
Rules came in when the factory started using high strength steel as to how the metal was to be treated so that we could return cars to there original state.
I would not restore the car because I do not know the state the metal is in. The car could look perfect and drive perfect but how can one insure that it will crash as the engineers designed it to.
I could also not insure that the frame or body would not suffer structural failure do to the heat and cooling cycle it went through.
The metal could be in brittle state from the heat cycle or re-working from repair.
The issue I have would be the metal and what state is it in!
When metal gets heated it changes its structure, when metal is heated and cooled rapidly it changes it structure again.
When I was in trade school they drummed in to us that we must return the car to pre -collision / pre- damage condition.
This means the car must drive and crash as it would have when it was new.
Rules came in when the factory started using high strength steel as to how the metal was to be treated so that we could return cars to there original state.
I would not restore the car because I do not know the state the metal is in. The car could look perfect and drive perfect but how can one insure that it will crash as the engineers designed it to.
I could also not insure that the frame or body would not suffer structural failure do to the heat and cooling cycle it went through.
The metal could be in brittle state from the heat cycle or re-working from repair.
Last edited by Bernhard; November 7th, 2014 at 03:27 PM.
November 7th, 2014, 07:36 PM
#36
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,584
Sad as it is sometimes you just have to let them go. Theres not one square inch of this car that wont need work. It will need Everything! replaced or repaired, plated, painted. It would cost alot more to repair it than its worth IMO. Many normally reusable parts will have to be found and replaced along with the normally replaced parts. All electrical, dash, gauges, wiring, brake and fuel, all bushings, lights and lenses, EVERYTHING needs something or replaced.
However I guess thats kind of what im doing to my non burned 67, so i guess it can be done so long as future owners know the history.
However I guess thats kind of what im doing to my non burned 67
, so i guess it can be done so long as future owners know the history.
Last edited by steverw; November 7th, 2014 at 07:39 PM. Reason: more
November 8th, 2014, 05:10 AM
#38
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 2,494
Im not positive but I believe this is the same car that sold thru a salvage auction ( Co Part) a few years ago. It sold then for somewhere around the 10,000 range. My son was bidding on it and stopped well short of that.
Greg
Greg
November 8th, 2014, 05:41 AM
#39
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: maryland
Posts: 1,393
wr1970, please explain your comment about being out of my league....are you saying paint will or will not adhere to this sheet metal? I've always been under the "assumption" that once the metallurgy changes, adhesion then becomes a problem. My knowledge is somewhat limited, so I'd welcome any information to be stored up in the old "noggin".
Sure, I've seen some fire jobs repaired, but I haven't seen those cars years after the repair.
Sure, I've seen some fire jobs repaired, but I haven't seen those cars years after the repair.
Last edited by Dave Siltman; November 8th, 2014 at 06:28 AM.
November 8th, 2014, 06:43 AM
#40
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,574
wr1970, please explain your comment about being out if my league....are you saying paint will or will not adhere to this sheet metal? I've always been under the "assumption" that once the metallurgy changes, adhesion then becomes a problem. My knowledge is somewhat limited, so I'd welcome any information to be stored up in the old "noggin".
Sure, I've seen some fire jobs repaired, but I haven't seen those cars years after the repair.
Sure, I've seen some fire jobs repaired, but I haven't seen those cars years after the repair.
