dmcianfa

Doesn't this guy know that April fools was on the first of the month? Why can't people just sell the car as it is without the bull hype and call a spade a spade or a clone a clone in this case. I guess I just need to get with the program, assimilate with ebayers and be like everyone else and try to pull one over on every soul that could become a potential buyer. How can this guy say with a straight face that he has protecto plates and a window sticker with a B-09 option for this specific car. My guess is the VINS on those don't match up at all with the car itself. The funny thing is; the car seems to be in great shape and a really nice looking car. Guys like this you often wonder what else they are hiding though, such as the mileage.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=290552077769

Bugg

wow they made single exhaust, auto trans 442's??

joe_padavano

"...to the best of my knowledge..."

Anyone want to bet that the air cleaner is fabricated? I'm not aware of any 64s with an external breather connection to the air cleaner snorkel, particularly using a Chrysler-style aftermarket breather in the valve cover.

But at least it says "442" on the license plate, so it MUST be real.

$25K starting bid and reserve not met? Hope he likes paying ebay listing fees.

olds4life

bugg, i thought the exact same thing.

Bluevista

What's the problem??
This rash of "Look at this hideous evilbay travesty!" posts lately with a link and no real explanation other than "It's not right" doesn't help anybody that may want to learn why.

I'll take that bet.

I know a saw one on a '64 because I remember that funky breather deal and asking the guy if it was factory.
Every pic of a '64 442 air cleaner on the internet has one too.

The breather is wrong.

64engine.jpg

joe_padavano

You are correct, sorry about that. Once again, one must ask, if you are spending that much money on a complete resto, why do you use an incorrect Chinesium valve cover breather?

Of course, the one-of-none 1964 442 with automatic trans might be a tipoff. There should be Cutlass or F-85 emblems behind the front wheel openings, so obviously someone has been welding trim holes. Naturally this begs the question, did that same someone also drill new trim holes? The rear sway bar appears to be an aftermarket one that is not shaped the same as a factory one. What else was added during the resto? Sorry, but a car like this just sets off alarm bells.

Now, THIS car sure looks genuine and is very well documented:

http://baileysclassicautos.com/1964_442.htm

oldcutlass

Wow, nice car someone spent big bux on that resto!! I believe that car had duals on it! And yes there were automatics! Btw I believe that is a factory breather.

You guys might want to read this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_442

joe_padavano

Funny, because in 1964, 442 stood for FOUR SPEED, four barrel carb, dual exhaust.

Not the one pressed into the valve cover. Note the correct one in the photo above vs. the one on the ebay car.

Oldsmaniac

Check out the way they ran the rear steel brake lines!

1969w3155

There were NO automatics on the '64 442.

1969w3155

While we are at it, what was the first year that option code "W29" was used?

oldcutlass

I wonder if possibly, since the 442 was introduced late in the model year an automatic might have been available towards the end. They did have an automatic available for 65 and in 64 the package was the B09 option. Who knows? That breather looks like an olds breather that looks to painted gold. I don't know if it is a 64 or not!

MDchanic

Guess they didn't have a flare tool to finish the tubing to the right length.
Wonder what else they didn't have the tools to do right?

And what's that "33" on the firewall supposed to mean?
"From the glass-lined assembly lines of Old Latrobe?"

- Eric

Oldsmaniac

I luv the white X/chalk marks placed on rear cover and forward. I would not expect a high dollar car to have a bent grille either.

joe_padavano

Once again, NONE of the 2,999 442s built in 1964 came with any transmission other than the 4 spd. As for the valve cover breather, sorry, but you're not being very observant. Compare these two. Look closely. And no, it ISN'T the gold paint. Note the shape of the top of the breather can and the angle of the tube that comes off the top. While you're at it, also note the correct and incorrect oil fill tube caps.

Ebay incorrect breather:



Correct Olds breather:



Do you think the breather on the ebay car might be one of these, painted gold?

oldcutlass

Ok, ok I surrender!!!!!!!

firefrost gold

He has the window sticker I asked in a e mail if it was a four speed car that was swapped out ?

coltsneckbob

The car has dual exhaust.

coltsneckbob

Well I am not going to be too quick to dismiss the car as an utter fraud or the seller as being purposefully deceitful. There are many small items on (e.g. breather) on a 47 year old car that might have been replaced by earlier owners. Certainly an item like a breather is somewhat trivial to worry too much about.

Probably the more problematic issue is the trans, but here too some folks are suggesting that an automatic may have come available late in 64 model year.

And I have to be honest I really don't think the guy really laid on all that much hype. I mean he is trying to sell something and like anyone selling something he can and should tout its various points of value. I am a capitalist.....sorry I just feel that so long as he didn't out and out lie (and I don't have reason to believe he did) that he well within his rights to say what he said and ask for the top dollar he can fetch.

Now the vehicle that Joe says has the correct breather I note also has what certainly looks like a power brake booster. So, would that be correct? Would a 4-speed of that time have had power brakes? The point being that we can't really mock a seller when we cannot definitively say we know this or that to not be true.

Were one of us to want to purchase the car it is entirely fair to bring these points up to the seller in hopes of getting a better price. However, I can imagine a seller saying they'll deduct $50 for the breather.......really not much of a bargaining chip then is it?

This discussion is interesting and educational - as we all learn something about the vehicle and about sellers. So, a lot of what is said here is very worthwhile. It's just that I guess I feel it unfair (and it puts me off, and it is petty) to mock the seller based on the little information we can garner from the listing.

I don't mean to offend anyone here. Nor am I trying to justify the asking price. Again, I am very interested to read the detailed information many of you have regarding the nuances of the breather, trans and everything......so yea lets continue discussing that!!

joe_padavano

Power brakes and even A/C were available options on the 1964 442. This is documented in the sales literature. An automatic was NOT offered on any of the 2,999 cars built that year. 1965 was the first year for an automatic in the 442 according to every scrap of factory documentation I've ever seen. If the window sticker and cowl plate indicate that the car was originally a 4 speed car and was converted, that significantly lowers the value.

Yes, the breather is a small thing, but the starting bid is $25,000 and reserve is not met, so the seller expects to get significantly more than that (if the reserve was anywhere near the $25K starting price, he wouldn't have paid the extra ebay listing fees for a reserve auction). For that price, I expect the car to be correct. Same thing for the rear sway bar and other questionable things about the car. The careless routing of the rear axle brake lines tells me that at best this was a quickie resto with the intent to flip the car, calling into question the quality of the work. My opinion only goes down from there.

If this was a $10,000 car, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I guess that at least we should be thankful that he didn't have a starting bid of $0.99 and a $50K reserve, like some sellers do.

aliensatemybuick

So what is the deal with the radiator top plate and fan shroud? Was that an option (HD cooling) or from an AC car? Looks odd to me.

aliensatemybuick

Also, about the "33" on the cowl, I wonder if that could have any relation to the car's build date? My '67 442 has original chalk/crayon marks in that approximate same area, and if we assume they are calendar days for 1966 (based on the "10C" my car's cowl tag, it was built in the 3rd week of October 1966), that works out to the 3rd week in September, or about a month before.

(I DO like the "Olds Latrobe" theory, though)

TK-65

1965

A little birdie reminded me something I knew and forgot.

TK-65

Whats the major, if not the most important, feature of the 64 442? The 4 speed trans. It was mandatory and if you wanted an auto, you couldnt have a 64 442. So why would someone take out that trans and replace it with an automatic? Why ruin a key feature of the car?

There are three things that stand out to me. The trans, the rear sway bar and the trunk emblem. There are no access holes for the emblem under the trunk lip. A true 442 will have two holes next to the rubber bumper. This car has none. So I reckon the 442 badge is stuck on there.



lInnerTrunkbehind442emblem.jpg


Ive asked twice for a pic of the window sticker and have yet to hear back.

Rickman48

Maybe the grille got bent when they 'cut' the 442 emblem out of it!!
Ist 442 I ever saw was a friends '64, and I seem to remember a 442 emblem on the dash, in the grille, on the trunk, and one on each fender - not seen in pics.
Seems the original owner 'restored' the car with original paint, [?] and the fairies filled in the emblem holes!!
Maybe it has the 1 in 1 expiremental super Turbo 350 transmission with the 'hidden' 1st gear, too!!

Keener

Hey Z, you also forgot the boxed lower controls, which this car does not have. Would be curious if the upper control frame mount has four holes versus three holes for a standard '64 vert. The first photo below shows three holes for the upper control arm frame mount on my '64 vert. The second photo is the trunk holes for the 442 emblem on my '64 442 sports coupe. The third photo is the boxed lower control arm from the 442, the 4th photo is the upper control mount on my 442 which shows 4 holes.

Keener

The lansing cars had the breather connection in the snorkel while the fremont cars had the the connection from the driver side valve cover to the left side of the aircleaner. Tough to tell if it is a fake or not, would need to see the underside of the air cleaner. Photos below are from my Fremont built 442.

1969w3155

I already knew that '68-71 were their own models, and that it reverted back to an option in 1972 (W29), just did not know if W29 was used as the code for 442 prior to 1968.

firefrost gold

The seller e mailed me back said he has a letter from a line sup. from the michigan plant that states they maid 3 with auto's with the b-09 option. I will try to post latter cant do it from work.

a64olz

64 had no 442 grille emblem, also no 442 dash emblem.

Diego

Oldsmaniac

It should be obvious to all by now that this car is not a true 442 and the shotty workmanship and non correctness make it no where near a 25G car unless ya just like pretty. There were no special order auto trans cars or stationwagons. Fairytales abound but truth is truth. There were also no 65 442s that came with 425's cause they ran out of 400's

Keener

The seller sent me this:
"Thanks for your input. However, after a lot of research and talking to actual people who worked at the plant during the early muscle car era. I was told there were many many cars that were put together not according to specs. Remember, the 60's and these were the first ones made. According to Walter "wally" Henderson who was on the line. He remembers at leat 3 that were Specail Order automatics. 2 according to him were Station Wagons. 1 went to a coroner in Tennesse, the other to a Police chief in wi. Anyhow according to olds it is a 442. Also, there were many variations in producing the early ones. Thanks again for your input."

Right....that line worker story again...sounds like the '65 442 that came with a 425 instead of a 400. The guy still thinks that there were only 436 '64 regular convertibles made. Totally clueless.....try 12,xxx were made and of those, 436 were B09.

joe_padavano

Funny how this is ALWAYS the story when someone tries to sell an "iffy" car.

It may be true, it may not, but without hard factory documentation from the period (not a letter written by a worker 45 years later), one must assume that it's BS.

And yes, Olds did build cars outside the normal specs, but never for normal production sale. One that comes to mind is the 1968 Vista Cruiser with the complete 68 H/O drivetrain and suspension. This car was featured in Car and Driver Magazine in 1968 and was clearly described as a factory-built one-off, not available for sale to the public. Give me documentation like that and I might be convinced. Since that particular magazine article didn't mention a VIN, however, you still can't prove that your "frame off, 68 H/O Vista" is the car in question (for example).

dmcianfa

This guy is a total BS'er, right down to his father's sob story to try and hook, line, and sinker some sucker into paying top dollar. It's an old addage snake oil salesman tactic to use. Not only that, but I don't see boxed lower rears. He refuses to send me a pic of the cowl tag, which could vindicate some speculators here if it was previously at one time a manual 4 speed. He refuses to post a pic of the protecto or the window sticker and is relying on a "fable" of some 82 year old guy that is trying to remember something from 50 years ago. I am calling BS on this bigtime. It reeks, it stinks, it won't float, it won't fly, it plain and simple doesn't add up with all the discrepencies. The only thing true about this car is probably the air cleaner, for which he probably got on ebay or picked up along the way. To flat out ask this kind of money for a "supposedly" true 64 442 is insanity at it's best. I sure hope some sucker doesn't set himself back a cool 15-20 thou. Yes, it's a nice car, but to skeptical to be touted as a true 442. Just say it's a clone and you'll probably still get what you want for it in the end.

Here's some facts:
What it has that would indicate it is a true 442:
1. Correct Air cleaner
2. Dual Exhaust
3. 442 emblems, that appear to be the correct color and placement.

What it lacks that would add skepticism that it is not in fact a true 442:
1. IT HAS AN AUTOMATIC JETAWAY!!!! (Olds didn't make a single one like this with confirmation and documentation to prove, unlike otherwise. This is a dead giveaway and is a huge head scratcher)
2. It doesn't have boxed rear lowers from what I can see.
3. I cannot tell if its the original four barrel carb period correct for UHC.
4. It lacks access holes on the underside of the trunk for the emblem installation.
5. The owner will not release a pic of the cowl tag.
6. The owner will not show up close pics of the window sticker or POP, so you cannot verify if the VINS even match what is being claimed.
7. The breather element is not a the correct olds stock item.
8. Owner will not release a picture of the upper rear control arm mounts.
9. There are other frame signatures that the owner is not willing to share that could possibly vindicate his claims.

I don't know about you fellas, but I'm beginning to not like the odds here if I was a betting man. I'm close enough to go look at this thing, so if anyone can add to these comments I would be happy to take an hour or so and go have a peek before some sucker end up buying it. Even if Olds did veer away from standard procedure in the plant and do some special optioning, it would most certainly be reflected in documentation, such as the POP or sticker or cowl if it could be sold and that of which he cannot prove or is flat out not willing to for the sale.

Oldsmaniac

As noted above the rear anti-sway bar is aftermarket and does not loop under rear properly, Cutlass/F85 emblems missing on fenders. What is that silver pipe/tubing just under front timing coverat oil pan? I can figure that one out.

joe_padavano

That's one of the trans cooler lines. Note in the passenger side engine photo that the two lines run up that side of the engine. Since this is a downflow radiator, the radiator tank with the trans cooler is on the bottom of the radiator, not the side. The lines split and one goes to each end of that bottom tank. My 62 has a very similar routing.

1969w3155

Joe, you know so much about Oldsmobiles that I have a proposal: A "Vulcan mind meld", the pros...I will gain much more olds knowledge...the cons....you will drool a lot. How about it?

MDchanic

He doesn't write like a retired doctor.

- Eric

aliensatemybuick

Well now I don't know...there is a retired lawyer who posts around these parts who manages to mangle the very language which I would have expected someone of that profession to have mastered.

The guy who was selling that bogus JFK Navy hearse a couple months back was a doctor, and much was made of that point, i.e., he had BONAFIDES and evrythun.