jaunty75

Saw this as we were going over the river and through the woods to Grandmother's house. It is located at the corner of County Roads 89 and 95 in front of R.W. Larson Motors near Dunkirk, New York. The car was parked out front with a For Sale sign in the window, so I figured I'd take a few pictures and post them here in case anyone is interested. There was no one around when I stopped as the shop was closed.

All I know about the car is what you see in the photos and what is written on the piece of paper in the window. Console, rally wheels, new tires, bucket seats, automatic transmission, V-8. Asking $8,000. The phone number shown is in the 716 area code (716-934-1000).

The car was unlocked, so I opened the doors and took a few pictures of the interior also as well as a couple of photos under the hood. The interior looked rougher than the exterior, which appeared straight with good chrome. There are a couple of gaping holes in the door panels where speakers used to be, and the dashpad is cracked. The front seats were covered and couldn't be seen. That itself is probably a good indication of their condition.

The odometer shows 06041, so we're presumably talking 106,000 miles at least.

If you have any questions, call the number. I know nothing more about it than is written here.

wmachine

Thanks for shopping for us!
V8, alright. 350?

jaunty75

I believe it would have been a 400. According to "Setting the Pace," the L78 ("442") option on the Cutlass Supreme included the 350 hp, 400 cubic-inch V8. The only other V8 available on any F-85, Cutlass, or Vista Cruiser that year was the 330. But the 400 could have been had, apparently, even if you didn't order the full 442 option package. Also available on the F-85/Cutlass series was the 250 cubic-inch "Action Line 6."

According to Setting the Pace, 1967 was the last year for the 330. After that, the smallest V8 was the 350.


Always trying to keep these cars from ending up in the scrap heap. Unless this guy is advertising this in the local paper or in some other fashion making it known that this car is for sale, the only way anyone would know would be to by chance be driving by on this remote stretch of highway and see it like I did. That's not a very good way to sell a car. I figure if I can spread the word a little more widely and better the chance that this car survives, why not.

wmachine

I'm quite aware of all of that. (The only other way a 400 came with with a Cutlass Supreme was with the Turnpike Cruiser option).
What I'm trying to say is the engine that is in that car is *not* the 400 that it should be. It looks like a 350 to me. Not a 400, not a 330, not a 455.

Jamesbo

Looks like a 69 consol to me.

I wish I had kept count of all the cars that I've seen [in the 60's and now] that had speaker holes cut in the door panels. It's so common it's almost "origional"

69Rman

Console is the same one for '67-'69
Unless of course it were a '68 or a '69 H/O
Duane

jaunty75

I did it to a '75 Chevy Nova I once had. I never thought about future resale value. I only thought about getting good sound in my car. What teenager didn't? This was in 1977.

It was probably done to this car many years ago, before anyone thought that a car like this could one day be worth lots of money in as original a condition as possible. Look at the aftermarket radio in the dash. He's got some kind of a weird metal plate holding the radio. It was hard to tell in my quick glance, but I'd imagine that dash has been pretty much bollixed up, too.

Allan R

Nice looking car from the outside, couple of indicators of rust. Lots of work on the inside. From the looks of the door and the jamb/sill area there's a lot of rust thats just waiting to be revealed. Personally, I think 8000.00 is a lot high for this car. It doesn't appear to have any real special options except for the speedminder speedo. Hope someone down there or closeby takes a fancy to it, it's a really decent looking car and the color is rather nice even if faded. Most of the parts needed to restore this car are easily available. Just need $$ and patience I guess. One reason I really love this kind of car is I learned to drive in one.

jaunty75

I would have thought so, too. But it's interesting. I just bought the February 2010 issue of the Old Cars Price Guide, and it pegs the value of a '67 442 2-door hardtop in #4 condition, which this car certainly is, right at $8,000. So this guy is right on with his asking price.

What's really interesting is the change in value in the OCPG for this car over the August 2009 issue, which I also have. In there, the value of this car is shown as $6,200. That's quite a jump (almost 30%) in six months. I wonder what has changed in the market for this car given the current economy.

wmachine

I don't have much faith in the value giudes. What you just pointed out is a prime example. Just because they show a jump doesn't mean that is it the least bit true. They may have more accuracy with more common cars, but not with Oldsmobiles.
I think the 8k is high, especially without a correct or original engine, or a 455 even. The 8k guide value is based on having a correct engine. The car does look to be solid and and that will really determine the value of it based on what we see. But I think it will have to be pretty solid to justify anything north of 6k. And we don't know, maybe 5k could eventually get it.
Regardless, a car undoubtedly worth saving and kudos for helping to find it a home!

Allan R

X2 with you on this Kurt. I'm actually surprised that Joe hasn't commented. What the ultimate selling price will be depends on arrangement between the buyer and seller, not a book list price. We see this all the time on evilbay auctions. Asking price is just that, and it certainly doesn't hurt to ask. The selling guides supposedly represent fair market value, but every case seems to be decided indvidually at the point of sale. I'm not sure how many can afford to put out $$$$$ for a project car anymore. Economy and jobs tend to focus us on other issues just to stay afloat. Maybe this guy's in the same boat and is just trying to get top dollar for the car. IMO, Leaving it unlocked for anyone to have a look through is certainly an invitation to having it disappear during the night though since these cars weren't equipped with steering lock. Then again, maybe he wants it stolen so he can claim insurance???

jaunty75

I just love all this negativism about these price guides. No one is saying that these guides are giving anyone orders about what price to set when selling a car nor what any particular car is worth. It's just a book of average selling prices for these cars taken from a variety of sources. The OCPG HAS been around for more than 30 years, and it wouldn't have lasted so long if it wasn't serving a purpose to someone somewhere.

The asking prices you see on ebay or on the car at the side of the road are no measure of true value, either. That depends, as you say, on what the buyer and seller come to agree on when dealing with a particular car.

The OCPG is just a reference point. No is saying it's gospel.

Allan R

Agreed, and it wasn't intended to be negative, just a statement. Cheers!

jaunty75

It's as simple as this. What's the first thing a realtor does when you want to list your house for sale? He pulls up a list of "comparables," which is a list of houses similar to yours in similar circumstances and what they actually sold for. When you want to set a realistic price for your house, this is what you need.

It's no different for a car. When setting an asking price, you want a list of what similar cars HAVE actually sold for, not a list of what someone thinks a car is worth or what people have ASKED for their cars. That's all the OPGC is--a list of average prices of what cars HAVE sold for. That kind of a list is useful to anyone selling or buying an old car.

wmachine

Sorry, but it is in reality *quite* different than housing, and it isn't that simple. Yes, the *intention* is to make comps, but it does not work out to be anything close to what is done in the real estate market. The reporting (the source of the information) is *not* the same, and it is *not* the same kind of market. Like there is nowhere near the price consistency in the *classic car* market, and there are far less comps with a much greater % of the cars, just to name a couple of factors. And you noted the 30% jump in 6 months, totally unlike the housing market especially in a depressed market! What does that tell you?
As Allen said, this is not being negative. It is just understanding the market and what the guides really mean.

jaunty75

I'm sorry. I had forgotten that, like everything else, you're an expert on real estate.

442garage

There are a few things in those photos that lead me to believe that that particular car may just be a cutlass with a 442 hood, grill, and badging. The trunk lid is a cutlass, not a 442, the trunk emblem is incorrect for a 442, the headlight bezels may be open(hard to tell in that picture) and that definitely is not a 400 motor. Having said that, I would have a hard time paying 8 grand for that particular car. I would need to see the vin and a few other things to know for sure.

joe_padavano

I've got to go with Kurt on this. The Old Car Price Guides are supposedly compiled from auction results. The first problem is that there aren't enough of these cars sold on a regular basis to develop a statistically valid sample size (First gen Camaros, no problem, but 442s? Nope.). Second, the auction world, particularly the high end auctions, are decidedly NOT the real world. You also don't know if a particular car "sold" at auction was actually bought by the seller because it didn't meet a sale price he wanted. Third, when I see data in these price guides for options that were not even available (a manual trans in a 69 H/O???), my BS detector kicks in. I suggest that you review completed auctions on ebay. You'll find that very few high dollar cars actually sell, and sometimes even when they do "sell", they appear listed by the same seller a couple of weeks later.

Unfortunately, sellers see these OCPGs and ebay ASKING prices and think their car is worth significantly more than it really is. Most people over rate their car anyway. Keep in mind that a no. 1 car is an over-restored, better than factory car. A car that's driven can never be better that a no. 2 and is more likely a 3. No. 5 is a parts car.

Now, don't get me wrong. Other than the engine, this car looks solid. My concern is that I've never seen a rust belt car that didn't have bondo in the quarters...

joe_padavano

The VIN won't tell you squat. The body data plate, however, will prove it's a real 442 (assuming this isn't a Fremont car). We've already determined that the engine is a later model replacement (note the choke heat stove on the intake for a 1970-up integral choke carb). Yes the intake could have been swapped, but the oil fill tube is also 1968-up and those are more difficult to swap. Chinesium valve covers and Holley carb (spread bore? I don't see an adapter) under that air cleaner (is that a Mustang air cleaner?).

Of course, this isn't as bad as the guy on ebay that has a very rough 1966 442 convert that's "numbers matching", despite not having the Protect-O-Plate.

jaunty75

Auction results form PART of their database, and they'd be foolish to ignore them. But they're not the only source.

wmachine

I'm sorry you don't like hearing it from me. But it would help if you stick to the facts and stop taking everything so personal.

jaunty75

Gee. I'll look into it and see what I can do.

67 Cutlass

Nice "Cutlass" but not for 8K! I agree with some of the previous posts about it not being a 442. I have the same car sitting behind my garage (it's a rust bucket, long story on that) with the same color and interior. I thought the trunk 'OLDSMOBILE' trim was suppose to be black on the 442's? The tail lights look right though. The engine doesn't even look close.

TK-65

The black on the OLDSMOBILE trunk chrome wears off over time, not a good indicator as to if the car is real or not. Cowl tag is where the proof is, as said, thats if its a Lansing or Framingham car.

Jamesbo

Thanks I didn't know that

joe_padavano

So where does the rest of the data come from?

To be honest, I've seen too many people get auction fever and end up spending waaay more than an item is worth. Case in point, at a farm auction here a used 100 gal Rubbermaid water trough was sold for about $10 more than they sell for brand new at Tractor Supply.

Same goes for auto auctions, particularly the big name auctions. Again, I suggest monitoring the completed auctions on ebay - you can easily search them using the Advanced Search function. Right now if you search olds* 442 in completed auctions, you get 110 listings (some of which are Cutlii with "442" in the auction title). Of these, 16 cars actually sold (though we still don't know if cash actually changed hands). The selling prices range from $1025 for a 1975 442 through $25,000 for a W-30 CLONE.

Two fully restored 1967s sold, one an admitted clone for $13,500 and one a "numbers matching" car (yeah, please show me the numbers that "match") for $16,000. A 67 442 with 4 spd, in better shape than the car we're talking about here, was unsold at $7,500.

Draw your own conclusions.

wmachine

And to further this method of evaluation, keep 2 additional things in mind:
1. The cars are not proven to be what they are claimed to be. (for example, may *not* be "numbers matching" as claimed).
2. No guarantee the the sale finalized and the title and car actually changed hands.

Minor points for sure, but........

jaunty75

According to the magazine, from "verified reports of private sales."

How they get this data, I don't know. I agree that they can't possibly capture every sale made, and I'm not trying to defend them to the last degree. I do not own stock in the company that publishes it. I couldn't care less if you buy it or not or pay any attention to it or not.

But as I've said, it has been around for more than 30 years now, and it wouldn't have lasted anywhere near that long if it wasn't proving useful to someone.


This isn't a terribly useful comparison because a new version of the item sold is available to use as a base value. So we KNOW that the auction bidder paid too much. We don't know this for collector car sales because there are no new ones to use as a reference point. We have only the averages of the prices paid.


The conclusion I draw is that any ONE auction result is nothing to base a trend on. But take a lot of auction results and average them and you might have something. For every car that is sold for 50% more than one might think it's worth, another is sold for 50% less.

Oldsmaniac

As for if its a real 442, as said more research is needed. The trunk lid may be swapped from a Cutlass, the 442 badge there looks like it may be a side emblem. It has the dash badge which was harder to get but now reproed. It has the correct hood and grill/bar. Engine is not original and trans should be a 3 speed turbo 400. All 442's AC or not had the fuel return line back to the tank. Check for boxed rear control arms and anti-sway bar. Vin should have 5V or 5VY. 8 G's seems high for what it is and what it will need.

joe_padavano

You're thinking of the body data plate, not the VIN. And unfortunately, it's been documented that Fremont-build cars did not get the 5V, even if they were real 442s.

Oldsmaniac

Correct, thanks

rwlarson

Hi. I'm the R.W. in R.W.Larson motors. The 442 that was parked in front of my shop belongs to one of my regular customers. He had me resto-mod a 1971 Corvette he owned and when it was done he decided it wasn't really what he wanted so he traded the 'vette for the 442. The Olds came from a guy in the Pittsburgh,Pa. area. It runs and drives nice but as you noted(correctly) the motor has been changed. It is a 350 cu.in. My customer asked if I would put it out front for a little while to see if there was any interest. The $8,000.00 is what he had in the 'vette when I finished it. He is probably going to have me "do it up" when its turn comes up. He has aprox.14 classic cars and trucks in his collection and he still isn't 100% sure he won't sell it as is because it is so much like his 1967 GTO. Sorry I was not at the shop on Thanksgiving day to meet you. That's what I get for going to mothers house for an outstanding meal. Rich