71supreme

I am in process of putting my 71 cutlass supreme back on the road after 12 years in storage - some indoor, some outdoor.

When I started it up today, I hit the brake pedal, and my foot went all the way to the floor. I figure I need to replace all wheel cyl's & the master. This leads me to 2 questions.

Since I am replacing the master, should I also replace the poer booster?
What else should I consider replacing? new shoes? Turn the drums? new lines? I'd rather not do it all if I don't have to, but I would also rather do it just once.

Any thoughts/suggestions/help would be greatly appreciated!

~Mike

2blu442

I like your idea of doing it just once! I would replace/rebuild the master and wheel cylinders plus new shoes at a minimum. Inspect the springs in the drums and the front rubber lines. If you don't have front disc this would be the time to consider it. If you aren't worryed about keeping it original you could consider larger brakes. There are a couple inexpensive swaps for the rear drums. Changing to bigger front disc isn't as cheap. My 2 cents. John

The rear brake upgrades? Either Vista Cruiser from 1968-72 that are 2 1/2" wide pads vs 2 inch or 76-77 Cutlass that are 11" in diameter rather than 9 1/2". Get used backing plates and drums, replace the shoes and turn the drums if needed. Both are bolt on swaps that are easily done.

Allan R

Hi Mike,
Brakes are probably one of the most important safety devices on your car. Don't cheap out. If you have full pedal travel, first check your master cylinder reservoir. Chances are it's really low or empty. If it's the first, top it up and see if the pedal pressure is good. Bleed the system. If the pedal still bottom out, start looking for the source of the leak. It'll be easy to find - there should be a puddle somewhere. Could be the brake hoses, a rotted out brake line etc. I don''t think its the booster, that works off vacuum pressure, but do check the line to the booster for cracking. I'd replace the line if it shows cracking or is all hardened up. If your power booster is all rusted up, you can replace it for around 120 bucks or you can recondition the one you've got. Your call.
Definitely check your calipers, rotors and pads (front disc) or drum and shoes (front drums) . Check to see if the drums need resurfacing or replacing. Repeat process on rear drums. Most of the time that I've done drum brakes, the springs are not really any problem. The brake cylinder may be a problem if the seals have dried out or deteriorated. You might want to replace them on the age principle. They're really not expensive.

If you remove and recondition your brake master cylinder, you're also going to have to bench bleed it before reinstalling. Theres lots of how to videos on the web. They're short, accurate and easier to relate to than a textbook. You'll also have to bleed the system.

For a car that's been sitting a long time, I usually bleed the system just to make sure its intact. Start with the RR, LR then go to the RF and finish with the LF. If you don't have to touch the proportioning valve that's good. If you can work with wrenches and have a degree of mechanical apptitude, you can save a bundle doing this yourself. Do you have any friends that are mechanics? A bottle of Jack Daniels or a twofour of beer is a cheap alternative to a service shop. Some brakes are a PITA, trust me I know. Others are so easy you can be done in half an hour. Good luck with your project.

BTW, I am not a mechanic, these are things that I've found by working on my cars. Listen to the advice of the others, especially those with the mech credentials. They know and on this site, they share.

OLD SKL 69

Allan pretty much nailed it. The only thing I would ad is that if you need to replace any of the above mentioned items, hit the fittings with a good penetrant 1st. These fittings can get rounded pretty easily, especially if you are using regular wrenches. Another tip is keeping a butane torch handy for the real stubborn ones. Just heating them up a little will make them come loose a lot easier. Hope that helps.

Olds64

Also, don't forget to wear a mask when you work on brakes. Old brakes used asbestos in the pads and shoess. We all know what they say about asbestos. It is better to be safe than sorry, especially since you can buy a mask at Wal-Mart for $.97.

71supreme

Wow, thanks guys! For now I think I will remain stock, but I love the idea of bigger drums. Right now I prefer drums b/c it will sit a lot in the winters, and when disks sit for any length of time here in Maine, they tend to rust (unless anyone has any tips to prevent this.)

Thanks again! I will keep you posted!

Lady72nRob71

Buy a set of line wrenches - they will be worth their cost after saving one line nut....... They can be used for other projects, too. At the least, borrow a set.

Also, I like to do this in the driveway and use water spray to remove the brake dust, NOT compressed air. Water keeps the dust out of the air and is cleaner.

Do replace the rubber brake hoses (2 front, one rear) if over 15 years old or cracked or hard. Rockauto is a good place for these type of parts...

Turning the drums is not really needed if they are not gouged, scored, rusty inside, or discolored / glazed.

If you have front drums, wheel bearing repacking can be done, too.

If this is your first brake job on this car, take some digital pictures before disassembly. Even after doing this several times, i often forget which brake shoe goes where or if part A goes on top of or under part B....

Olds64

Another easy way to do the brakes is to do one side at a time. That way if you don't remember how the springs went on the drums you can just look at the other side for reference.

jaunty75

I think many of your questions can be answered by some inspection. It would be interesting to know why your pedal went all the way down. Could be as simple as a fluid leak somewhere that you can repair. Then refill with fluid, bleed, and try again. I wouldn't necessarily go around and replace everything just for the sake of replacing it without inspecting it first. On the other hand, as others have said, brakes are certainly the most important safety feature on your car, and you don't want to skimp or cut corners. If there's any doubt about a part, replace it.

I just redid the brakes all around on my '67 Delta 88. I bought it last June. While the car stopped pretty much OK, I had no idea what the history of the brake system was, so I did pretty much a complete overhaul of the parts on the wheels. The steel lines were all in good shape, so I did not replace those. I did replace the rubber hoses for the front brakes. I replaced all four wheel cylinders as each was leaking slightly. I also replaced the brake shoes and as much of the hold-down hardware (springs, pins, etc.) as I could find in the form of rebuild kits, and I was able to find kits that allowed me to pretty much replace everything.

One exception was one of the springs on the parking brake mechanism inside the wheel on one side. It had broken in two, and this kind of spring is not a part of the rebuild kits. So I went to a hardware store and bought something as close as possible in diameter of the coil and thickness of the steel, cut it to shape, put it in a vice to bend it into the slight oval shape it needed to be, and, voila, a new spring that works fine.

I did have the drums turned on all four wheels, but only after inspecting them to see if they needed it. Drums can be turned only so many times before the amount of removable metal is all removed, so I don't think it's a good idea to have them turned unless they need it.

I did nothing to the master cylinder or power booster as those seemed to be working fine.

You don't say if you've ever done brakes before, but when you pull that drum off and take a look, all the levers and springs and pins and stuff can look quite daunting. I find it good to take a nice clear picture or two of the thing before taking it apart, and then have that next to you when putting it back together. I also only did one wheel at a time, so the, say, left rear was sitting there unassebled while I was doing the right rear, and I could go around and look at the left rear while re-assembling the right if I had any doubt as to how something goes together. I just had to remember that everything is a mirror image.

The hardest part is pulling on those return and hold down springs to get things to come apart and go together. It helps to have a good pair of pliers, vice-grips, and a strong arm. And make sure that car is really securely on those jack stands, as you're surely going to be pushing and pulling on it!


Here's the left front wheel before I did anything:





Here's the same wheel after the job was finished:




Ain't it pretty?!


Note one thing. In looking at the photos, you'll note that some springs are new and others are not. The old ones were reused because they're not part of the rebuild kit. I'm sure it goes without saying, but make sure to SAVE EVERYTHING, because you never know what you'll need to reuse. To be honest, all of the old springs were in perfectly serviceable condition, and I could have reused them, but I put in the new ones where I had them.

The one type of part that was really not reusable was the hold down pins (inside those little coil springs that hold the brake shoes down). In pretty much every case, those were quite rusty after what I assume was 42 years and barely able to hold anything.

71supreme

Thanks Rob & Olds64!

It's my first brake job on this car in at least 14 years, and certainly my most extensive to date.

Good call on the wheel bearings and the spray bottle, I hadn't thought about either. I don't know that I have heard of line wrenches. I will look into them.

Olds64, this has been my tried & true method for years. Thank god these things come in pairs!

Rob, I love the flickr pics of the resto. she's a beauty!

Thanks for the pics Jaunty! I will have some pics up as soon as I get into it. probably not until Monday or Tuesday at this point. I've got a heavy weekend ahead of me...

Jamesbo

If you are working with any type of fitting that is in-line - such as a brake line, fuel line, or any type of cable - this line wrench can be a life saver. Standard open end wrenches may not grip the hex well enough, which can lead to stripping - a real pain in the neck! To use a line wrench, just slip the open part of the wrench over the line, then slide it onto the hex part of the fitting.

Most any auto tool store will have them. They're close to a "must have tool"

citcapp

X2 on the wrenches buy the metric set as well as some of the new and rebuilt calipers and brake wheel cylinders come with metric fittings from the factory.

Lady72nRob71

When I did the wheel cyl. on my mom's Olds years ago, my standard wrench partially rounded the nut on the first attempt. I went right to Sears and for 25 bucks, i got a set of line wrenches. Never rounded another line nut again and saved many nuts and my sanity.
If you ruin a nut, the brake line must be replaced or cut & reflared - no fun.


Many thanks - she is looking better after each hour of work... I am nowhere near done yet.

I did not mean a spray bottle, I mean garden hose! Park outside and flood it first gently and use a regular detergent after the worse is off. Spray the heck out of it towards the end. Dry with compressed air. The job will be a lot cleaner afterwards. However, before any cleaning, take a close inspection of your rear axle seals to check for oil seepage.

Some small areas of the backing plates require a small tad of grease where the shoes rub. Do this very cautiously. Also, verify the adjusters turn easily.

BTW, while those old drums are off, this would be a good time to sand them down and paint them if desired. They were painted semigloss black if the rally wheels were installed. So many mightaswells!

Oldsmaniac

Remember though a fine particulate mask, rated for asbestos is needed to filter out asbestos fibers. The cheap masks do not do this and you will have a false sense of security.

Olds64

True, I didn't think about this. I have a particle mask/respirator I wear whenvever I sand or do brakes.

71supreme

OK, Got the new master, & booster, all wheel cyls, and shoes.

I found the leak. It was in the drivers front line to the proportioning block. all the other lines, including the rubber lines look good. I just bought a set of line wrenches.

Does anyone know what size(s) are typical on the proportioning block?
It's in a tight spot, and I can't see it very well. I don't want to strip it, which is why I bought the line wrenches. Actually, I bought the line wrenches because I already stripped the fitting by the brake hose

7/16 is the correct size for the connection by the brake hose, but it doesn't seem big enough for the other end. I will keep trying, and maybe see if I can clear more things out of the way. I really don't want to remove the header if I don't have to, but if it ultimately makes the job easier, perhaps I will have to do it...

Any help/thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated!

71supreme

ok, squeezed myself into the wheel well with a small flashlight & got a good look. it was 9/16. tried to loosen it, but it wouldn't budge. I sprayed the crap out of it with wd-40, and will try again tomorrow.

71supreme

Woohoo! The line broke free! I used a c clamp to hold the proportioning block tight to the frame, and kept the liquid wrench flowing for about 3 days, and voila!

I will have more pics, but couldn't get them 2nite

New question. The precut brake line I got is a bit long (about 6 inches). Are there any rules for how not to bend brake lines? What should I beware of? I do have a tubing bender. I was thinking of just making a wavy line instead of straight along the frame rail.

Thanks!

71supreme

Oh, & 14mm did the trick on the brake line at the block. 12mm@ the hose conection

Lady72nRob71

Great work and advice on soaking rusted on brake fittings with penetrating oil before messing with them.

I love it when a plan comes together...

71supreme

Thanks Rob! I was so excited I think I told everyone I met that day, which made for a couple interesting client meetings and an embarrassed gf. :P

Any advice for what to do, not do when bending the brake lines? I'm tackling that Sunday

71supreme

Well, I've done it. The new line may look funny, but for about $3, it'll do while I get the rest of the car road ready. I just hope it's not going to interfere with anything.

You may notice the neon green front spring. They are HO racing springs from the A body suspension kits they used to sell. They were installed in 1989. My friends were all off roaders, and had all kinds of neon under their rides, so it seemed completely reasonable at the time

71supreme

OK, in what was turning into the longest brake job ever recorded, I learned something today.

I have been going to the local Autozone for my parts. It had taken a week for parts to come it each time I ordered them. I figure, ok, old car, less demand, no problem - though this is a big part of why the project has taken so long.

Today I opened my new wheel cyl.'s from Autozone, and was devastated. there was no way this "new" part was going to fit my old car, even though the part # was exactly what was called for in every reference guide I could get my hands on.

Rather than going back, I went over to NAPA. a little further away. Not only did they have the new correct cyls in stock to take home today, but they were able to help me find a $2 solution to my broken latest brake line problem.

Sometimes the parts place you choose makes all the difference. The fact that the new cyls cost twice as much as the other ones that were useless did not bother me in the least b/c I knew they would fit! I love NAPA right now!

jaunty75

I've had a similar experience. I go to Autozone a lot because they're open far longer hours (until 9 p.m. on Saturday where most others close by mid or late afternoon, and they're open on Sunday, which no other parts store is). BUT, they're not always right. I find it easier to go to their website and look up the part for my particular car before going to the store. They still look it up on their computer right while I'm standing there, but this way I can see if the part number they come up with matches what I came up with. I can also look and see if the same part but for one model year older or newer might be a better match to what I'm holding in my hand, for whatever reason. That's why I REALLY like it if a website will give a nice, enlarged view of the part.

The local NAPA has been good to me, too, and they have machine shop services, but like I say, compared to Autozone, they keep banker's hours.

Yellowstatue

Instead of making a wave in the line, do a loop or spiral...doesn't look so woosie... and it is still fully adjustable..woo hoo

71supreme

Well, my brake odyssey is almost done. It's my busy season, and I am only getting about an hour or 2 here and there to work on the car. The rear brakes were much easier than the front, primarily because nothing broke.

I also got the master bench bled and installed. The master came with a bleeding kit, and instructions. I followed the instructions to the T, and got all the bubbles out. I am including those instructions here so if anyone else needs them, or if I should ever misplace them, I will know how to find them.

I have included a pic of the shiny new master cyl & reman booster, along with a pic that includes my new air cleaner courtesy of Atdog, and Jamesbo. Thanks to jamesbo for making it possible, and to Atdog for extending the courtesy! I also have a pair of beautiful new chrome valve covers, again with thanks to Jamesbo & Atdog. Those will be my next big project!

The only thing left to do is bleed out the system, and fill all of those lines with fluid! My gf is helping me bleed the brakes, so I will have to do it at her convenience. I am a little scared of the brake bleeding process, as I have never started the brake fluid from scratch before. I just want to make sure it goes well, so I have a few questions...

Roughly how much fluid does a 4 wheel drum system take?
Does the cap need to be on the master cyl when the brake pedal is pumped, or should it be off?
How many times should the brake pedal be pressed before adding fluid?

I have seen posted here to start at the passenger side rear, then drivers, then pass front, then drivers front.

Are there any other best practices/ tips I should follow?

Thanks for all of your help folks! I will finally be able to have new pics of my car once these brakes are done.

Atdog

Nice work! That master cylinder and booster (and air cleaner!) make a HUGE difference!