ostie13

I have a 71 Toronado with disk brakes in front and drum brakes in the rear. I have new calipers ,new rotors, new pads and new drums. I purchase a power brake booster from a company to replace the stock unit. I think it was 11 inch, they said it was the largest one they make. I just still am not pleased with the performance. I want to upgrade. Does anyone have any ideas that I can use. Just off hand would a double piston front caliper work better than the stock? or maybe a ceramic pads? Please let me know your ideas.

76olds

I installed the Wilwood D52 dual piston calipers on my 76 with ceramic pads. I notice a big difference over the factory single piston cast caliper and regular pads.
I'm not sure is its a combination of the two or just the pads that made the difference.
I would try a set of ceramic pads and go from ther.
I hope this helps
Eric

ostie13

Thank you so much for your ideas. I will look them up . Did Wilwood recomend the Ceramic pads to or were they a seperate purchase.What brand of brake pad are you using?

76olds

Wilwood supplied pads with the calipers, I'm unsure what compound they are I kept them as a back up. I purchased a set of Hawk HPS pads, they work well with very little dust on the front rims. I also bought the summit racing brand rotors, not sure if they make a difference on wear but they were reasonably priced for a coated, slotted, tear dropped rotor. Not drilled through.
The Hawk pads seem to be working well with those rotors without the typical rotor wear I've seen when using ceramic/semi metallic in the past.

Eric

MDchanic

What kind of pads are you using now?

You'll get the best grip from cheap "organic" pads, which are what your calipers were designed for.

Metallic or ceramic will have less fade, but unless you're racing or towing a heavy trailer, that's not important to you.

- Eric

joe_padavano

Step AWAY from the Wilwood catalog until you do your homework.

The stock calipers on a 1971 Toronado use a 2.94" diameter piston. That provides 6.79 square inches of piston area. The Wilwood dual piston D52 calipers only provide 6.28 sq in of piston area. This will REDUCE braking force.

Note that the typical RWD calipers for 1971 only have 2.75" diameter pistons, yielding 5.94 sq in of piston area. The Wilwoods DO provide an upgrade in those applications, but not for a Toro.

The question you need to ask is, have the calipers on your Toro been replaced previously with the incorrect 2.75" versions? That will reduce stopping power.

ostie13

I am using a Duralast Gold metallic pad. The best one they metallic pad they had. I dont know if this makes any difference but I did change out the Booster. Going from a stock booster to a 11 Booster from The Right Stuff with a proportioning valve Kit for a disc/drum setup.Also when I replaced the calipers, they were remanifactured ones from A1 Parts. Looked Identical to me.

ostie13

Joe I think it is stopping be best it can. Which is not the best. I can stand on the brakes and you cant ever start to lock up the tires.If it did that I think it is stopping the best it can. What would you suggest I do to help. I have spent thousands on this beauty and dont want to run into the back of a Prius. You know how hard it is to replace those Toronado hood emblems.

MDchanic

So you are using metallic pads.

You can switch to organic pads. They won't make a huge difference, but they will make a difference.

Also, you did not mention anything about the rear brakes.
What shape are they in? Are there any leaks or seepage from the cylinders?
Are they adjusted correctly?
This will make a difference.

- Eric

joe_padavano

The fact that the replacement calipers "looked" the same doesn't mean that they are correct. I doubt anyone can tell the difference between a 2.94" piston and a 2.75" piston unless the two are side by side. That will make a difference in braking force.

You replaced the stock booster with some aftermarket 11" booster? The stock booster was a 9.5" double diaphragm unit. If the replacement is a single diaphragm booster, you have REDUCED the effective booster diaphragm area and thus the brake assist force by about one third.

Also be aware that "locking up" isn't a good thing. You have a heavy car that results in high forces between the tires and the pavement. If the prop valve is functioning properly, you may not be able to lock up the tires. That doesn't mean the brakes aren't working properly. By the way, would this car happen to have the optional True Trak anti-lock system?

Is the pedal hard? Are the rubber hoses relatively new? Are the rear shoes properly arced to match the drums? Are the adjusters working properly? Is the M/C correctly sized?

Why did you replace the combo valve? Is the new one correct for a Toro, or is it a generic aftermarket unit designed for a RWD car?

Sorry, but from what you've written, it sounds like you've made expensive changes using incorrect, mis-matched parts.

ostie13

yes I do believe you are correct. I new when I put the 11 inch booster on it felt different. I was told that there 11 inch booster would work much better than the stock one ,so I am going to start with a rebuilt booster made for my car and pull out the aftermarket one for starters. The rear drum brakes were rebuilt with new pads drums. I dont know how to adjust them so I guess most shops could check it for me. Thanks for your ideas. I kept all of the original parts so I will go and find them especially the brake calipers and compare then to the new ones. Is one perporional valve good as the other or should I go back with the stock one?

MDchanic

If the rear brakes are quite loose, they could definitely be contributing to your problem.

Why not look in your Chassis Service Manual for adjustment information?

Also, if you don't know how to adjust them, how can you be sure that you reassembled them correctly?

- Eric

ostie13

I purchased the parts and took them down to the local garage and they replaced them for me so I guess I just thought they new what their doing?. I thought that the rear drums changed with the pad wear. Do you have to set them a certain way first? Since im going back to the stock booster would you go with the stock perportional valve also? Do they make better parts when it comes to brakes for the Toronado or am I going to just need to replace these parts back to stock ? If there is any ugrades at all.? I know there is not very much made for the Toronados.

76olds

How long ago did you have the brake work done? Have you tried reversing and applying the brakes to see if the rear will set themselves up?

ostie13

I had them worked on several years ago. Pretty much as soon as I got it the brakes were redone. A friend drove my car the other day and told me how hard it was for him to stop. I guess I have just been careful with it. How do I do the reverse reset exactly?

MDchanic

You only need to change the rear drums if they are worn past their limits or damaged.

Ideally, the shoes should be ground to match the exact radius of the drums, but theoretically, new shoes and new drums should have the same radius.

Regardless, after assembly, the brakes need to be adjusted so that the shoes are as close as possible to the drums without rubbing - if they were left with the adjusters completely retracted, the brakes would act a lot like the rear circuit had a leak, and would not stop nearly as well.

I would use the stock proportioning valve unless you have reason to believe that it is not working correctly.

And, no, there are no upgrades at all, although you are welcome to sit down with some engineers and design some, if you'd like to produce a product that nobody will ever buy.

- Eric

m371961

Do you have a Chassis Service Manual?
Keep in mind, when you have others doing the work, they may have little experience working on older vehicles. They may even have the shoes reversed, as there is a forward and rearward shoe. When you have a car that is older then the people working on it you must be very vigilant the work is correct.

76olds

Just back-up several times up and down your driveway or if your driveway isn't very long reverse on the street and apply the brake firmly. 3 or 4 times should set them up if everything is working as it should.
How were the brakes when they were done several years ago ? Did you still need to stand on them as you are now? Is the brake pedal now a little lower than the gas pedal ?
How far does the brake pedal go down when you need to stand on it with relation to the gas pedal ?

Eric