Rocketman!442

Hi everyone, I finally got the 461 fired up yesterday, but I had some 'issues'. It started up right away, with a bit up lifter noise as they were pumping up. She was warming up fine and then whack, down one cylinder, and whack again, down two cylinders??? Sounded like top end so we pulled the valve covers and found that a rocker stud on the left bank had snapped off. Pulled the right side cover and found another stud broken off right at the guide plate? I was using Harland Sharp Roller Rockers that I had run with the same Hyd. Roller cam on my iron heads, so I couldn't understand why they would bind. It appears that on the full down motion of the rocker the poly-lock binds with the back wall of the rocker, which is snapping the studs. There are marks on the back of the rocker where they met the poly-lock, I installed the 9.800" pushrods as recommended by Edelbrock, just wondering if they may be a bit long and causing my issues. Like I said, I had run this roller cam and rockers on my old iron heads with no issues, the only thing different here now is the new heads and pushrods. Looking forward I think that I will replace all of the rocker studs as they may have been stressed and damaged as well, and go with the Crane Roller Rockers as Edelbrock suggests? I can't see why I had a problem here ????

Thanks for any input,

Wayne

seansolds

Sorry to hear that! I haven't seen the difference between a stock head and E-head. But I'm thinking their must be some difference in in size. Also, has one of the heads been milled for compression? How does the rocker geometry sit on the valve? Is it center, off center. Seems the pushrod must be to long.

nicks1966

Just for a point of reference, my 468 with edelbrock heads and harland sharp
5016 rockers has 9.50 push rods. Do you have a push rod length tool?

Rocketman!442

Hi: No the heads are brand new, untouched. The geometry looked OK when I was setting the Roller Rockers, so I tend to agree that the pushrods 9.800" as recommended by Edelbrock seem a bit long? I know the aluminum heads are taller than iron heads by 5/8", but 9.800 may be overkill. I will call their tech. line from work tomorrow and see what they say. I looked on Dick Millers website and see two different Harland Sharp rockers, one for iron heads and a different one for E-Brocks. The instructions say Crane Roller Rockers or equivalent, so I assumed that my old Harlands were at least an equivalent??? Got to learn the hard way I guess??? I'll post how it turns out, thanks, Wayne

cutlassefi

9.800 is most likely way too long.
As a point of reference my last two Edelbrock headed builds had HS 5017's and had perfect geometry with 9.200 pushrods. They were both roller cammed as well.
Thanks.

midrange

With my Procomp heads, and Harland Sharp lifters, I needed a 9.300 pushrod. I also needed adjustable guide plates to keep the rockers perfectly centered on the valve tips.
I know it's late advise, but maybe someone else building an engine will read this, always measure for pushrod length, never follow a suggested 'off the shelf' size. Every block, head, lifter combo is different.

Rocketman!442

I saw that the Instructions said: Must use 9.800" hardened pushrods, so I took their word for it. I used these same Harland sharp rockers with the hydraulic roller cam and old pushrods on the iron heads, did 21 dyno pulls at 6,000 rpm without a hiccup?? I am contacting E-Brock as the 9.800" must be a typo???? I am changing all the Rocker studs and Roller Rockers to whatever they recommend for these #60515 heads. My brother said 'it's as if your cam is too big for those rockers??" they say .570 max, my cam is .550 lift??? This shocked the crap out of me, I was asnticipating 0 problems with all the new parts??? It did sound pretty wicked until it starting self-destructing!!!

thanks for your input, Wayne

TripDeuces

Isn't that figure for standard hyd lifters and not a roller? Roller lifters are much taller

Rocketman!442

Just spoke to Edelbrock, told him I used the 9.800" pushrods as recommended on the instructions for my Hyd. Roller heads (#60515), told him I'm snapping off rocker studs as the poly Locks are hitting the back of the Rocker Arms. He says "whose cam are you using???" I said a Lunati, but your instructions don't say which cam we have to use with those pushrods? He said I should ask Lunati what length of pushrods I need to use with their heads, and they will probably call for shorter.....you think??? I am waiting for a call back from someone a bit higher up the food chain at Edelbrock, maybe Vic Jr. I was quite happy with these parts until all this happened. We'll see what they come back with????? Hard to type I'm shaking mad here !!!!!

Wayne

80 Rocket

Engine building 101: You must always check for proper pushrod length that gives you proper geometry. This is not Edelbrocks fault, this is your fault. There is no way any company can tell you what length pushrod you need, it is literally impossible. Do some online searches on checking for proper pushrod length, there is plenty of info on the 'net.

As mentioned, the roller lifters may be much taller than a flat tappet lifter. I was assembling an engine yesterday, big block Olds with iron heads and a solid flat cam.......the pushrod length that worked best was 9.800".

Rocketman!442

Edelbrock agrees that the pushrod size listed is a reference for flat tappet cams, not hydraulic rollers, should not be on the #60515 Instruction sheet. The sound like they are going to man up for my damage. I knew they were a good Company !!!!!

Wayne

80 Rocket

Let us know if they pay for the damage done. Hope it works out in your favor. Be sure to check for proper geometry/pushrod length next time, though.

Rocketman!442

Hi: Like I told the tech guys at Edelbrock, if the instructions for my hyd. roller cammed assembled heads (#60515) wouldn't have stated twice "MUST USE 9.800" hardened pushrods with this installation" I would have measured what pushrods I needed. Edelbrock agreed that this is not correct for the hydraulic Roller Heads. I sent in several pictures of the carnage, and am replacing all the studs, roller rockers, and 9.300 pushrods. The tech. that I spoke to felt that as long as the pictures looked good, worst case scenario is that I may have to send them the junk parts?? Sounds like a class company. I have used a ton of their products over the years and never had a problem.

I'll keep you all posted.

Wayne

70cutty

Make sure you measure the pushrod length instead of guessing. Are you sure you need 9.3000?

Rocketman!442

Hi, it looks like the popular length is 9.300", but I have a length checking pushrod coming this week from Summit. I don't want any surprises this time. The worst thing about it was, it started up right away and sounded really healthy except for a little lifter noise as they were still pumping up....then 'whack', and another 'whack', and time to shut her down !!!! Those 220,000 (P.S.I.?) ft. lb. studs sure make a loud snap when they break. I never want to hear that sound again !!!!

Thanks for all the great advise, I'll keep you all in the loop when she is thumping again !!!

Wayne

Warhead

Consider yourself lucky that the studs broke, instead of pulling out the aluminum from the heads. Been there done that on factory BBC heads. Having those welded up by a qualified shop was tough and pricey. And they still looked a bit Frankensteinish when repaired.

Nice to see E-brock helping you through it.
Good luck.

Rocketman!442

So far so good, just waiting to get my pushrod length tool?? It's always a hassle to get parts up here in 'the great white north'?? fedex wants to ship to my rural address, I'm out in the bush!!! Mail to my P.O Box in the town near to me..."Can't send to PO Box???" i'll get it eventually and then I will ensure that my length and geometry are 'spot-on!!!!'
Thanks, Wayne

ziff396

I went with their 9.8 recommendation on mine with a flat tappet Lunati Voodoo cam with scorpion full roller rockers and was short. I ended up with 9.9s to center on the stem. Sometimes a little is a lot.

Rocketman!442

I am running Lunati hydraulic roller lifters which are typically taller. The 9.800's recommended were WAY too long, ended up binding on the studs on the downward push and snapped off studs. The poly-locks are binding in the back slot of the rocker arm. A good way to F-up a set of Beautiful Harland Sharp rockers!!! I have read suggestions as to what length I need, but I'm using a measuring pushrod and not leaving anything to chance this time !!!!

Thanks, Wayne

Rocketman!442

Just got the pushrod length checker, will measure on the weekend, already got the replacement roller rockers, Comp Cams Ultra Gold.... Stout looking pieces, all new studs, and will get the correct length pushrods and get her ripping the M&H Racemasters up soon!!!

I'll keep you all informed, Thanks for all the advice, Wayne

Charly9g

I am in the middle of almost the exact same build using Howard Roller cam, lifters and rockers. Just before i was about to button it up i received a letter from Bernard Mondello that I might possibly have to grind (Lightly relieve) the cup side of the rocker arms because I am using hardened 3/8" pushrods instead of the 5/16" normally used. It was found that this sometimes causes binding between the pushrod and the rocker, possibly causing your problem. I don't think this would cause a stud to break but might be a hint. Good Luck!! Let us know what happens.

Rocketman!442

Hi: My pushrods were definitely too long at 9.800" We got the Comp Cams pushrod length checking tool and found that the ideal length on my combo is 9.330". I get a perfect 'witness' mark at 1/2 lift with this length. Unfortunatly this is an odd-ball length (unless you have an FE Ford with roller rockers?) I am waiting for my custom length pushrods and then she'll be 'Good to Go' !!!!

All the relief in the world would not have stopped these rockers snapping the studs. They were cranking so far over that the Poly-loks were indenting the rear of the slots in the rockers, but thanks for your input !!

I'll let you all know how this works out !!!!

Thanks Again, Wayne

Rocketman!442

The adjustable pushrod shows that at 1/2 gross lift, with a perfect witness mark on the valve head I actually need 9.335" pushrods. They are on the way. I'll let you know how it all pans out !!!

Thanks, Wayne

Rocketman!442

Still waiting?????.......patiently..........?????????? The snow will be flying here in Canada in a couple of months. I guess I'll have to use all winter to really polish up the old girl and then spray rubber all over the rear quarters !!! Ha Ha.......Wayne

cutlassefi

I could've gotten you a set of 9.350's by now. The .015 wouldn't make any real difference.

83hurstguy

I was gonna say, you don't need to be that precise. Most pushrods are available in 0.025" increments, and there's a range of preload on the hydraulic lifter. Should be able to get 9.325 or 9.350 in less than a week...

Rocketman!442

Well... it's been a while, but after finally getting my custom 9.335" pushrods we fired the lady in red up on Saturday. The rocker geometry is perfect now, the valve-train runs smoothly and quietly.. She sounds like one bad B!$@#!!!!! Man, does that air gap intake have low-end response!!! Way better at the bottom than the Torker!!! I am very happy with the Edelbrock heads now, I just hope not too many people tried the 9.800" recommended pushrods on a hydraulic roller cam. I'd say from 9.335-9.350" is right in the ball park !!!!! Let'er Buck!!!!! Wayne

76olds

Holy chit Wayne !! Just had a read through on your thread. Sounds like you had a close call, Good to hear you've got it back together up and running strong!!
I'll here you coming down from the great white open now haha. Put-r-ther sounds like a happy ending.

Eric

Rocketman!442

Thanks, it really sounds sweet now with that wild Lunati Roller and the Edelbrock heads and 11:1 compression(Diamond Pistons) sure makes it crisp!!!! It looks totally stock, but when you hear it that's a dead giveaway !!!!

Wayne

My442

I read the instructions on the Edelbrock website, and they say to use the 9.800" push rods......but, they also say is number of different places that you need to check for the correct geometry.

So, when using aftermarket parts, a 100% checking of key measurements is a minimum requirement.

Lucky you did not make a mistake with a main or rod bearing.

Rocketman!442

So far it looks like Edelbrock will pay for my new ARP studs and for the damaged Rocker Arms, but of course nothing on the labor? I don't care now it sounds so good with their new heads and air-gap intake on it!!! Wayne

raxefab72

Do the heads have any port work done

70cutty

Out of curiosity, what does porting have to do with pushrod length??

raxefab72

I was interested if he had any port work done, his build sounds like my upcoming build and I was asking the OP the question.

70cutty

His build, what build? All he mentions is heads and rockers, he doesn't even mention the pistons he used.

raxefab72

[QUOTE=Rocketman!442;909678]Thanks, it really sounds sweet now with that wild Lunati Roller and the Edelbrock heads and 11:1 compression(Diamond Pistons) sure makes it crisp!!!! It looks totally stock, but when you hear it that's a dead giveaway !!!!

Maybe you missed this part ...... But since you seem so concerned, as said above the question was for the original poster, not you thanks though