Oldsragger

Delete thread please

rustyroger

Is this legal in Norway?.
How does the size of the engine in your car affect you?, bigger vehicle taxes perhaps?

Without knowing a lot more about Norwegian vehicle law I can't give any meaningful advice. But unless you have a compelling reason for this I would leave it alone. I make this statement based on how things are done in the UK, not Norway, more information please!.

Roger.

Oldsragger

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MDchanic

Realistically, is any officer doing a spot-check going to know the difference between a big block and a small block engine?

US automakers did not cast the engine displacement into the block or cylinders the way European automakers were required to, so unless they know the casting numbers for the different blocks, there is no way that they could possibly tell your displacement.

Besides, there were no differences in brakes or suspension between big block and small block cars (except the 442 and the availability of optional packages).

We have no rules about it. You can put any engine into any car at any time without having to ask anyone's permission or file any forms.
In some states, though, like California, if the original engine had emission controls, the new one must have the same emission controls, or newer ones (though even in California cars older than something like 1975 are exempt).

In more than half the US states, there is no safety inspection of any kind, so you never have to worry about this nonsense, and in even more states, there is no safety inspection for antique cars.


My vote: Leave it alone and don't worry about it.

- Eric

rustyroger

Are you sure Eric?. Ford Pinto (European) engines had their sizes cast as raised letters, BMC diesel engines were marked 1.5D and 1.8D, but this was to signify they were diesel blocks.
I can't think of any other engines with any means for its size to be identified by anyone unfamiliar with them, besides in a modern European car it takes some time simply to remove enough covers to even see the engine.

Roger.

Oldsragger

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MDchanic

I didn't say that US companies NEVER indicated displacement, just that it wasn't generally done.

The Pinto motor, if I recall, was a creation of Ford Germany, and was used in European cars far more extensively than in American cars, so I would class it as a European engine that happened to be used on some American cars, and as such, it would have had its displacement indicated.

I would challenge you (okay, Joe, too) to come up with a traditional American engine (straight-6, V-6, or V-8) made before about 1980, that had a legally useful displacement indication (some 1980-ish engines, like the 307 and the 260, come to mind as those WITH an indication).

- Eric

stan 65 cutlass

ive been considering painting my 425 gold, like the original 330. other than a real olds guy noone would know its a big block

joe_padavano

You know better than to do that...

Oldsragger

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Oldsragger

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joe_padavano

Yes, that's a 403 (build 1977-1979, thus meeting Eric's pre-1980 cutoff).

The plate on the block is called a deck plate. It's used when boring a block to mimic the distortion that the block undergoes when the heads are torqued. If you don't use a deck plate (and most machine shops do not) the cylinders will be round in the unstressed state, but once you torque the heads into place, the bores will no longer be round, potentially causing ring sealing problems.

Oldsragger

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Octania

I have made a 403 look like a 307 by removing the "4A" from the heads and putting "5A" there. One can disguise a 425 as a 350 so that the car would appear to have an original type engine. Just removing the casting ID is probably enough, but you could add "350" in an obvious spot or the actual casting number of a 350 or whatever you want. As long as it doesn't cause legal difficulties. I'd venture to say in your area if it looks stock like a 350 gas in place of a 350 diesel, an inspector would be hard pressed to tell that it is not stock. If the VIN indicates diesel and there is no injection pump.... that might get spotted.

m371961

Chrysler had displacement cast in engine blocks pre-1980.

Seff

We still have you beat for ****-ness on that front. :P

Oldsragger

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Oldsragger

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Allan R

That's good info. Do you know why most machine shops don't do that? IMO a best practice would also create less returns and more satisfied customers/business reputation.

Correct me for my ignorance, but isn't the reason the heads get torqued in a pattern to avoid stressing the block in an abnormal pattern? I just find it hard to understand how torquing a head onto a heavy cast block will cause distortion.

Tedd Thompson

1953 Hudson Hornet straight 6 with 308 cast in the aluminum head. Probably earlier and later years also of the same make....Tedd

Seff

If you register a car as a classic/veteran vehicle, no changes can be made from original. Then the 2-year safety control is postponed to every 8th year. If you drive it like mine, non-veteran, then you can change parts - but never more than 20% increase in power without a new registration and documentation that the chassis, drivetrain and brakes can hold up to the added power. Vehicles newer than 85 (or whenever they started with TÜV certificates) can't be altered without a new TÜV certificate.

Oldsragger

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joe_padavano

Machine shops don't do it because 1) a unique head plate is required for each block family, 2) it takes time and thus adds labor cost to boring a block, and 3) not doing it is good enough for most stock engines. Any decent performance engine is bored using block plates and yes, the cylinder walls absolutely move when you torque the heads. We're talking a thousandth of an inch or so out of round, but when you are building a performance motor, that makes a difference on cylinder sealing effectiveness. Keep in mind that any piece of metal is a spring and deflects under load. The complex internal shapes inside a block make this deflection harder to predict. This is even more critical on WMW blocks like the 403 in the photo I posted.

Obviously, Chevy and Ford block plates are more common that those for less popular engine families. I managed to score a set of Olds plates from a seller on H.A.M.B. a few years ago.

joe_padavano

That's actually a pretty reasonable position. I've seen some pretty scary modified cars here in the U.S. that I would rather not be allowed on the roads I drive on. People who put a 500 HP motor in a car and retain the stock 9.5" drum brakes all the way around, for example.

oldspackrat

I believe some late '60s to early '70s Buicks had the CID on the intake or back of the block?? Don't remember which.

m371961

WMW= Windowed Main Webs ?

Allan R

Likely then the engine build for most GM engines weren't special enough to warrant this.....maybe unless they were W30, W31 or W32 engines??

BlackGold

Heck, you don't even have to wait for the 403 to meet this challenge. The 1970 W-30 and W-31 had the displacement cast right on the intake manifold for all to see. Yeah, it's not the block, but what does that matter?

MDchanic

True, but it got you going...

And, actually, since I explicitly listed the contemporary 260 and 307, you can see that I would have mentioned the 403 as well, had it not fallen out of my brain.


I did not know that. It would be interesting to see photos or read more specifics.


I did not know that either. Very interesting.


Really? Even though I owned a Skylark once, I never noticed that.
Any idea of the years and the exact locations?
All I've ever seen are the air cleaner plates with the torque numbers on them.


It matters in a legal sense.
In Europe, manufacturers are required to indicate the displacement on the part of the engine that contains the actual cylinders (ie: the engine block of a water cooled engine, or the cylinders of an air cooled engine), not a bolt-on part, so that the owner cannot fake an engine of a different displacement, because in many countries registrations fees are based on engine size, and there is a steep upward curve.

It's true, though - those intakes do say 455.

Thanks, so far, guys!

- Eric

oldspackrat

Eric,
Here is one screen shot. The displacement is on the rear of the engine. Not sure what years it is applicable to though.
https://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...arch.yahoo.com

Seff

It makes all kinds of sense, but it's not much fun for car enthusiasts. Keeps the worst Bubba work off the streets and leaves the smart tuners and mostly stylers.

Still a major annoyance that I need to document the strength of my chassis if I want to swap a 380 into the car.

J-(Chicago)

Honestly, I'm all for it. Grind it all off, and make new numbers with JB weld. What is an inspector going to do? Sit here on our website and learn all there is to know about our engines, or just google the number he sees? It's not like you're defacing a rare art piece in your situation. Keep their noses out of your business.
I'm sure pride in old American Iron, Isn't nearly as avid in your country as it is over here in the U.S. AND..... Even over here, that 4 door disco mobile of yours Doesn't get any respect from our homeland enthusiasts.

Oldsragger

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rustyroger

I'm by no means an expert in EU law, when did this come into force?. Just as in the USA, externally identical blocks may have a variety of displacements. Some internally identical blocks could be a number of displacements simply by changing the the crankshaft, rods, and pistons.

Modern cars mostly have engines that will outlast the rest of the car, and if the engine blows up it isn't worth fixing. As i said earlier, it's very hard to even see the engine on many modern cars, never mind determine the engines size.

Roger.

MDchanic

Cool. Thanks! I'll remember that location.


I'm not even kind of an expert in EU law, but I know what I've observed while living in Italy and while working on a variety of Italian and German vehicles over the years, and I know that in Italy, and in many other countries, at least in the past, automotive taxation was linked either directly to displacement, or indirectly to displacement (as in France) through a primitive horsepower formula, and that if you look at the block or cylinder casting of most of these engines, there will be a clear indication of displacement, such as a cast-in "9" at the base of motorcycle cylinders of 900cc engines. I was always under the impression that manufacturers were required to include some kind of clear, hard-to-change indication of displacement in order to make the jobs of the taxation departments easier, but I could be mistaken, and it could all just be voluntary and sporadic.

- Eric

m371961

Eric, here is a 340 TA casting mark. All La series I have fooled with have similar marks. Not sure of A, B, or RB.
If you guys ever see a TA 340, the AAR people pay big bucks to save these.

joe_padavano

Well, it matters because I can bolt one of those manifolds onto a 400, or a 307.

rustyroger

The authorities might not know how to identify the engine size of your engine, but they surely would require the engine serial number to match the registration paperwork.

Roger.

MDchanic

Really? Is this common over there? Do they have a separate spot on your registration form for the engine number?
It's unheard of over here, as far as I know.

- Eric

Allan R

Why? What on earth would they do if the engine had been replaced under warranty or been swapped out previously? Sorry but I don't hold any truth to your statement. The only thing that's absolutely required to match is the vehicles VIN to its title and insurance paperwork.