J'ville

I started up my 57 Olds, moved it out of the garage, and up on a couple of ramps to change oil. It hasn't started since. Fuel pump is pumping. Not getting spark. So I figure it has to be points, condenser or coil.
So here is my dilema - What do you think at this point about going with one of those petronix units. Anone have it on the older rockets?
Also is there anything else that will stop spark. Voltage regulator or distributor cap? Thanks.:

mickey3d

Sounds like you are on the right track.I think my procedure would be as follows:
First replace the condenser where it's bad or not.If it's not bad now it probably will
be soon.They are relatively cheap and can leave you stranded.Don't buy a cheap
Chinese made cond. Some of us who do flatheads also have been finding some
cheap new ones that fail in 2 weeks!
There's no excuse for not replacing the points while your at it unless you know they are good. I had an early Olds quit once and it turned out to be that the wire coming
into the distributor points from the coil had loosened slightly and was touching the
dist. bottomplate,thereby grounding the points...no spark!
If all that stuff seems in order,try to confirm that power is actually reaching the
coil by checking the wire that feeds the coil from the ignition switch(not the wire
that goes from the dist. to the coil).You can check with a test meter if you have one,
or a simple tester can be made from an old taillight bulb and socket to see if you
have power to the coil when the key is on.
If you have power to the coil you can check it's functioning crudely by removing
the fat wire that goes from the coil to the center of the distributor cap at the
dist. end.Use something to clip the dist. end of that wire close to (1/8") some
metal part of the engine.You can then take a small jumper wire and intermitantly
touch it to the wire connection of the small wire that runs from the coil to the
distributor.Touch the wire quickly and remove.This does the same thing that the
points do normally,and should produce a good blue spark from the fat coil wire
to the metal part that it is clamped 1/8" from.
No spark doing this probably means a bad coil.Most origional coils as old as yours
are likely about to die anyway.
WARNING DISCLAIMER .... DO NOT TEST AS DESCRIBED ABOVE IF GAS LEAKS ARE PRESENT!!! THE SPARKS CAN EASILY IGNITE FUMES FROM GAS LEAKS.
One other thing you could check is the "ballast" resistor.It is usually a white ceramic
device about 2"x1/2"x1/2" with wires connected to the dist/coil.When it goes bad,the
engine will usually start until you release the key from the starting position.You can
put a temporary jumper wire on the power input side of the coil(not dist.side) and
the + side of the battery.Try starting with the key.Be aware that if this allows it to
start and run,you will have to disconnect this wire to turn the engine off.
Don't leave this jumper wire in place very long with the engine not running or it
will burn up the points(the ballast resistor usually protects the points).
I think the Pertronix rig and a new "hot" coil is a very good way to go.
Good Luck!
MickeyD

mickey3d

I read my post after I sent it and realized that I failed to say that the
intermittant touching of the wire to test coil spark would be connected
to the coil to dist. terminal (the small wire) and the other end would be
quickly touched to engine metal somewhere to cause the coil to spark.

J'ville

Thanks Mickey3D for the scoop. Been a long time since I replaced points (30 plus years), but I will try tomorrow. The distributor is not in the best place to work on. Hope NAPA has condenser, points, coil (if needed) and plugs. Sure they will as many GM cars used the same tune up stuff till 74. Thanks again.

Oldsguy

I bought a 6v coil and plugs for my '48 Olds from Tractor Supply and the rest from NAPA, you should be able to get what you need. BTW, Tractor Supply was cheaper than NAPA but they just didn't have everything.

J'ville

Thanks but I have already ordered a Petronix Igniter I and 40,000 coil from JEGS. Just hope I can install it correctly.
Suppose to do away with points and condenser. I would appreciate any tips on install if anyone has ever done it. I will also put in new plugs gapped wider than stock (not sure what yet).
Bad thing is the car is sitting outside the garage because I can't push it slightly uphill back in.
So this along with converting the oil filter to spin on and converting the bath oil air filter to dry are my projects now.
Did receive the spin on conversion and it is high quality machined.
After all this, out goes the dino oil and in goes Amsoil synthetic diesel/marine 15W-40 oil. This oil has a super high 12 TBN additive package to actually clean up and stop further sludge from forming. These engines need it. Especially for the occasional outing most of us do.

mickey3d

Hey J'Ville,
I have never installed a Pertronix but I may try one soon on my '56 Olds.
The guys on other forums say they are an easy swap.
I will be very interested to hear about your experience.
r.e. getting your car up the slope into the garage;when we were teenagers,
we would do this by tying 2 empty tires together (2 thick,not side by side) and hang between a push car and the back bumper.
The '57 should roll real easy with no damage if the push car is lined up
straight behind it.
A "mature" push car driver,and slow and easy should do the job.
Have Fun!
MickeyD

J'ville

Say Mickey 3D, I thought about putting somthing between bumpers for cushion effect and easing the Olds back into the garage. But then, I saw my neighbor out in the yard and was able to corral his help. The Olds is now tucked in out of the elements. The car still has original paint which I will have repainted eventually. But the original chrome is still spotless and that is what I was really worried about. Everything seems as was.
I will let you how the Petronix conversion goes when I get it in.
I found oil on the coil and coil wire that must of came out the back of the oil bath air filter when the car went up on ramps. I pulled the coil wire and tried it on my 65 Falcon and it worked ok, but the coil could still be shorted out. As a result I will be installing either a dry air filter housing from a later Olds or purchase an aftermarket unit. I had planned on doing this anyway. I will save the oil bath unit.
Anyway I have ordered one of those Flamethrower 40,000 coils which I will install as part of the Petronix unit. If you come across a link (Petronix) from another part of this forum or another forum, please provide it for me.
I think the 56 and 57 Olds were the two of the best looking cars built regardless of era. These cars were really engineered and built. Expect to see these skyrocket in value as they become scarcer. I rate the 62 Olds 2dr hdtp as another looker. And the 67 442.

mickey3d

Hi Jackson'v,
Being somewhat of a "purist",I would try to encourage you to keep your stock
aircleaner.I don't see how oil could have gotten out of the aircleaner unless it
maybe had too much oil in it to begin with.
Many coils are filled with oil,which can ooze out when they are old and failing.
Could the oil possibly be coming from the coil itself?
If you have the aircleaner with a scoop on each side,they are highly sought after
by hot rodders.If you go ahead and replace it,I hope that you will try to keep it
in the "Olds community". You could probably trade it for other Olds pieces that
you want/need with other Olds guys.It is so popular that they are even making
fiberglass replicas of that aircleaner for the "poser" crowd. Have you seen the
early Olds valve covers that are being made in China to fit onto small block
Chevys so the "posers" can disguise their ho-hum engines? How tiring!
I would offer to trade you a genuine '57 J-2 intake manifold (for 3-2bbl. carbs)
if it wasn't for the high cost of shipping from Texas.
Actually,I would rather see you keep it with the car it came on.
Caveat emptori,make sure that your hood can't be opened when your car is
parked and locked or some creep will steal it. It would take less than 2 minutes!
I am mostly a hot rodder myself.I began using Olds engines when I was 17 (1961).
If you want to see my hot rod in progress,send me your real email address since
I can't figure out how to post pic's here.
"Ransom" would be proud of us!
MickeyD

Oldsguy

Hoooyah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J'ville

Wow! I had no intentions of loosing the bath oil air cleaner but I had no idea they were in such demand. My first impression was that the coil was leaking oil so I hung it upside down in a vise. It didn't drip but it is possible that under load it did leak.
As for the oil bath air cleaner, does it have an internal mesh? I am just thinking of proper filtration and air supply. I seen in a catalog mesh filters that supposively fit some bath units (and dry units).
My bath unit does have some worn painted area. Do you recommend powder coating or just preping and painting? If I am loosing oil thru the bath unit, then I probably need some replacement gaskets or like you say, may just have too much. Manual calls for a pint.
Email is ggraycar@comcast.net. Would like to see your pics.
I usually go to the Daytona Beach Turkey Run and I get tired of seeing most every rod having a small block chevy. Just no original thinking here. I am about your age and I remember when Olds was choice of rodders. Also up to about 1970, Olds held the record in just about every stock class in NHRA. Now the rod market is all about the easy Chevy aftermarket availability.
Personally I like being original and different. When everyone was a Yankee fan, I pulled for the Dodgers. I have always been an Olds fan since my Dad bought a new 58 Super 88. For some reason those 58's are quite a bit faster than the 57. A four barrel 371 would do 0-60 in 8.6 seconds compared to the 9's for 57. A 58 J-2 88 would break under 8 seconds and run the quarter in the high 15's when equipped with a 3:42 rear. I always wondered what the main difference was.

mickey3d

Hi J'vlle,
You were wondering about the performance differences of the 4 barrel equiped
'57 and one with the J-2 option.
This may be something you already know,but the J-2 engine came with a factory
3 two barrel carburetor setup,with 3 Rochester 2GC carbs.Additionally,the J-2's were
equiped with a high performance camshaft. You can sometimes identify these by the
valve covers,which had a row of 8 "dimples" along the top edge of each cover to
provide extra clearance for the rocker arms with the high lift cam.
The J-2 had a noticable increase in power over the 4 bbl. engines.
MickeyD

J'ville

I knew about the J2 3-2's but I wasn't really aware that a performance camshaft was included. I was aware of a "full race" J2 version that really wasn't available to the public, that included the works. It was designed for NASCAR. Lee Petty took a totally stock J2 out on the Daytona Flying Mile and hit 144 mph (remember factory stock) which was 20 mph faster than any other make. We all know that at this point NASCAR disallowed this configuration, claiming it was not available to the public. It did become available but NASCAR stood their ground. Lee Petty won the 57 NASCAR championship with a 4 barrel version.
I am sure you knew all this, as do most Olds ethuiest.
I probably didn't clarify, but my real question is why the 58 371 305hp ran so much stronger than the 57 277hp. Same thing with the 58 312hp vs the 57 300hp J2's. A 58 305hp 4 barrel Super 88 would outrun a 57 J2. This is based on performance numbers I have researched from old road tests, so if someone out there can prove different, I am open to learn.
The 56 although with an improved, more powerful 324, was slower than the 55. But that was because the Hydramatic went from electronic shift to a smoother, but less efficient bladder fluid shift.
I am still looking for a replica dry filter air cleaner. I really can't find an aftermarket air cleaner because they are all 5 1/16" (or so) necks and I measured the Rochester 4 inches across. I wonder what the CFM rating was for the R4?
Keep on keeping on

Oldsguy

J'ville, about the difference in diameter of the modern aftermarket air cleaners; Why not just fabricate a plate with an outer diameter to fit the modern air cleaner housing and the inner diameter to fit the top of the carb? That way you can keep the original oil bath cleaner and "go back" to that with very little effort. What Mickey3d and I are thinking of are the Oldsmobile air cleaner housings that had to air inlets, one on either side and they were sometimes described as "batwing" air cleaners. I will try to find a picture and include it in this post if possible, or at least a link to one. If this is different than your air cleaner then nevermind.........anyway.

http://www.grumpyzgarage.com/movin/parts-002.jpg

There was also the dual quad air cleaner that was called "batwing" but it looked different.

J'ville

I appreciate it but I do have the oil bath single snorkle type.
I will check to see if there is an aftermarket adapter like the one Oldsguy described. Really want to keep the car as close to original as possible, which will be the way I show it. Just want the improved filtration (both air and oil) for all other functions.
Here is one for you guys. Still havan't started up the Olds. Still waiting for a professional install of the Petronix unit. But I have a suspicision that the carb may be leaking around the up and down pump jobber-do on the right front of the carb. Will verify when going again.
Would you recommend a new/refurb carb (about $220.00) over a $65 kit and then have to pay someone to rebuild the carb? Carb seems to run perfect.
Thanks again.

J'ville

I found this and ordered.
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...tegoryId=12315

mickey3d

Oldsguy is right.His pic is the aircleaner I was thinking of.
It IS pretty C@@L looking isn't it?
I bet the fiberglass Chinese repops have replacable filter elements.
Have you seen those advertised Oldsguy? I can't remember where I
saw them offered.Might have been a small add in a hot rod mag.
Jacksonville,it sounds like you really know alot about the mid-50's
Olds models.I'm going to check out some old manuals,if I get a chance
this weekend,and see if there's any info on the cams.
MickeyD

mickey3d

CAUTION !!!
The previous thread response looks like it could be a hacker fishing
for your personal info.
...Oldsguy...do you know this member?

J'ville

Looks like a hacker or spyware. I am running a virus and spyware check now.
Wonder if it stoled someone's ID and password?
Added:
Scan finished. Zero viruses and 6 spyware intrusions found. Deleted.

mickey3d

J'ville,
What software did you use to find the spyware intrusions?
MickeyD

J'ville

Lavasoft Ad-Aware for spy and Macaffee for virus. I also disconnected from wireless and went direct. Use Comcast high-speed cable connection.

Oldsguy

I hate when that happens, Usually in Alero forum. Anyway, I plan on deleting it so soon it will not show for those others who are reading this thread. I am banning the user as well.

At any rate, back to the subject. I think if you feel safe in doing the carb rebuild yourself go for it, or if you have someone to do it you can trust. It is definitely cheaper. You are describing the accelerator pump, it gives an extra spurt of fuel when you step on it hard. I have rebuilt Rochester 4GCs, 4MVs, and Quadrajets, sometimes with exelent results, I rebuilt a Holley with poor results, maybe I was off that time, who knows (?). Good luck either way and let us know what happens.

J'ville

Glad to see that it was actually a person, not some virus or worm that got past my security.
I see Rochester rebuild kits from $19.95 to $65.00. Have any recommendations, especially to recitify the possible accelerator pump leak?
Don't want any fires.
Also is the 57 Rochester different from other 57 GM makes? Wouldn't think so but on one EBay site, the rebuild kit runs from 58 on for Olds and 57 on for the other GM cars. Might just be a type-o.
Thanks again.

mickey3d

ANOTHER INVASION !

Above ^

An old game ... Yell "FIRE" ...and then sell fire extinguishers

Oldsguy

Sheesh! They probably have a miner that reports the subject, then a person signs on and inserts the message in the thread. Can't beleive it sometimes!

I don't think I ever spent as much as $65.00 on a kit. A new kit should definitely fix the leak, it is probably leaking at the top of the accellerator pump tube. If you look closely, you should see a seperation line between the main body of the carburetor and the top, of course a gasket goes there and is supposed to seal all the way around as well as around the pump shaft itself. I think you could do it if you are careful.

mickey3d

Be aware that there is an issue with buying "NOS" carb kits.Depending on how the old
carb kit was stored,sometimes you find that the gaskets have dried out and become
deformed.And also the accelerator pump sealing leather(or rubber) has become hard
and doesn't seal properly. A new kit,recently manufactured,is definately a better way togo if one is available.$65 sounds too much to me too,but I am frequently accused
of still living in the 60's !
I have recently been talking with "SickBoy" on this site about rebuilding the 4bbl Rochester on his '56 Olds. I recommended him to see an older guy at a local NAPA
parts house about getting a kit.I haven't heard back from him yet about where that
was successful or not.
Check out his posts to find the link to a site where he has posted pic's of his car and
closeups of his carb.It may be the same as yours.
He has one of the stock Bat Wing aircleaners on his.
MickeyD

Oldsguy

Good point Mickey, about the rebuild kit. I completely agree, New Old Stock (NOS) carb kits really are affected adversly by age.

mickey3d

Hey J'ksonville and Dan,
I checked with one of my local sources (Marshall at Plano Auto Supply),
and he can get new Hy-Grade carb kits for the 4bbl Rochester. That is a
well respected brand name of kits that I have used many times.
Hang onto your hat for the price............$16.21 !!!! Now that's more like it !!
MickeyD

J'ville

Sweeeeet! I will check my local sources for that kit.

mickey3d

That was a NAPA parts house where I found it.
Let me know if you run into dorks that don't want to help you
and I can get one and send it to you.
MickeyD

J'ville

Thanks Mick, let you know.
Well I got my carburator neck reducer adapter and chrome 14 in air cleaner in from JEGS. Broke the cheap chinese plastic adapter trying to get it out of the package and the 3in air filter sits too high with the adapter.
Both are going back. Will stay with the original oil bath unit
Having no luck trying to find a knowledgeable old school mechanic that is willing to come to my garage and install the petronix unit.
I would take a gander but if I push it out of the garage and can't get it going, then I can't get it back in (slight uphill). Tore my left knee trying.

Found a slanted rectangular chrome piece about 1in by 3in in my driveway and wondered what it was for. Threw it away. I had just cleaned the garage and thought it was junk. Well today, I was sitting at the back of the Olds on the driveway, admiring the car, when I noticed that at the bottom of a chrome piece under the right tailight, that sure enough a piece was missing. That was it. Goes on the right side of the backup light. So if anyone has one laying around, let me know.
It is killing me not being able to start and drive the car.

If anyone knows a way to insert images from picture files, let me know.

mickey3d

How about trying to locate a local hot rodder to come over and do it for you?
Many young rodders would probably do it for you just for the bragging
rights that they "Worked on a real 371 Olds!"
It is really a pretty simple installation usually.
MickeyD

J'ville

Ever since I saw your pics of your hot rod, I have been hankering for one.

mickey3d

Hey Now...there's yet another reason to get in touch with your local hot rod
community...right?
Early Olds V8's are regaining popularity again in the hot rod crowd.
Fewer guys want a small block Chevy these days.
They're like belly buttons...everybody nas one!
It's getting kind of comical.Even to the extent of the recent introduction
of new after-market '49 Olds Rocket valve covers,made to fit over and
attach to SBC valve covers to masqurade as an Olds Rocket engine!
I'm happy to report that,much like it was back in the day,a persons age,
race and gender are magically invisible among most hot rodders.
The only thing that seems to matter is the love of cars!

J'ville

Like I mentioned earlier, went to the annual Turkey Run Hot Rod Show (Daytona) and got bored of seeing the same small block chevy in virtually every rod. I know parts accessibility and easy mods are the primary reason, but you would think someone might be a little original now and then. Glad to hear there is a trend back to Olds power. After all that is where it started. Have to give some credit to the Ford flathead v8 which preceded the Olds.
If you know a source for aftermarket mods for the early Olds, let me know please. But I don't need fake Olds valve covers. Mine are the real thing.
Your right, all car nuts share the same DNA.

mickey3d

Speedway Motors new catalog has a couple of pages of early Olds,early
Cadillac and early "nailhead" Buick stuff.
The catalog is free and has alot of other things you would likely be
interested in.
Just do a google search for speedway motors.

J'ville

Order in - thanks.
See the sbc "wanna be " Olds valve covers are there.
Oh! a miracle happened. That small chrome piece I said was missing - is there. I had seen a ghost. I thought I was looking at a space exposing wires for the reverse light. When actually, I was seeing a reflection of wires on my work bench. All I had was a glass of tea. Honest!

mickey3d

The 50's Oldsmobiles can be "magic time machines".
Strange things can happen in their presence!

J'ville

Mystery solved. Remember I mentioned oil leaking from the coil. Well that was the culprit. Replaced the coil and she started right up. Apparently when I put the Olds up on ramps, the angle drained enough oil from the coil not to conduct energy. Still am going to go to Petronix when I get a chance.

mickey3d

Congratulations! It's a great feeling when you nail down the problem
and fix it !