mhouston44

Hello all,
I have a 74 455 engine mostly stock sitting in a 72 442 W-30. Recently I spun a rod bearing (oiling issue-my fault). I had been thinking of making the engine a bit more fun because I think it’s a travesty for a W-30 to have an engine with lower performance than it deserves. Now that its just sitting in the garage I am thinking this is a good time to freshen up the 455 and make it scream. The car is drove maybe 3 times a week and taken to shows from time to time. I would like to occasionally take it to the track just for gits and shiggles to see what it can do and have bragging rights. Mostly I just don’t want some chump pulling up beside me in an import car with a soccer bleacher for a rear wing and beating me to the next red light if you know what I mean.
Im trying to stay around or even better under a $4000 budget. I know 500hp and 600ft-lbs is a bit ambitious for that budget but its better to aim high right? Anyway I am looking for some ideas to get me as close to that as possible. I would imagine reusing parts that I already have would save cash (ie. Street strip port on the Ga heads, modify the quadrajet, etc). I have hooker super comp headers 1 ¾” into a 2.5 pypes exhaust w X pipe. I know the head flow is the biggest issue so would a street strip port on cast heads be favorable over a set of edelbrocks right out of the box? I want the car to look somewhat stock, plus I have the Ga heads just sitting around is why I lean towards them. Would the quadrajet bowl run dry even with modifications at WOT? The car was begging for a new cam when it was running so I know ill need to put something else in. Im fairly competent when it comes to working on things, but I would not trust myself to do the porting/machining work. Car is a 4 speed with 3.43 gears
Looking forward to any suggestions on where to start (besides having the crank turned to clean up the bearing issue) and any ideas on parts for the money and performance im looking for.
Thanks,
Mike

gregvm

I SERIOUSLY doubt on a $4000 budget you will get anywhere near those numbers, or if it does, it'll last about 3 passes before a failure. Even if you have the heads in hand, already ported, you're going to spend somewhere around that(for QUALITY parts) in the bottom end to keep it together, with the block machine work, rods,crank,pistons,rings,oiling system,etc, not to mention valvetrain.
You're either going to have to up the budget, or lower expectations, otherwise you'll soon have a $4000 boat anchor.


my .02

Greg

TripDeuces

Ported iron heads are about equal in flow to out of the box Edelbrocks. So you'd have to decide if spending the money for Ebrocks is worth the cost of porting the iron ones. I'd shoot for a cam with less than .500 lift (since you are going with stock valve train) with a .050 duration in the 230-240 range at 108*. What is compression on a 72, 9 to 1? Best to consult the cam manufacturer for that. 240 duration may be too big for that compression. CutlassFI (sorry if I got that name wrong) grinds cams and could be a good help there. That probably won't be near your expectations for power and torque but it would be damn fun to drive on that budget. Bottom end work gets expensive fast, machine work, parts, etc. But larger pistons with more compression would add more power as long as they work in harmony with the cam. I think you could get away with the 4k figure as long as you're doing some stuff yourself, ie. porting the iron heads if you go that route.
As an example my 70 Cutlass had ported E heads, a cam in the 220 range, way too much compression for the cam but ran 12.40s/7.90s at the track on race gas (had to for the compression). I ran a Torker but would have been better off with a dual plane. That combo puts roughly 320-340 hp to the ground. Who knows what it made gross. A 12 second car is a very fast street car.

507OLDS

Being that the car is a 72 W30,it's a good cool factor to make it look as stock as possible,and run some great numbers.You have the correct 72 Ga heads already,so I would do some portwork & bowl blending on those.If the crank is spun,you might need another crank,and at least one rod,depending on the damage.I would get the shortblock torn-down,and see exact what you need to do to redo the shortblock.You can run your quadra-jet,and the factory W30 intake as well,or get a repop W30 intake.Your 72 W30 should have the wide-ratio M20,so I would keep that and the rear axle ratio the same.
Mark Prince has a 72 W30 automatic that runs 11:70's,and looks like a concours restoration,with the exception of headers,so it can be done.Not sure about $4,000.00 though.Find out what the shortblock needs first.

firefrost gold

Were is marks build and do you know who did it Brian

cutlassefi

I'm with trip and brian on this.

High 9:1 compression, the right cam, I can do that for you, and good tuning should get a good fast ride, while retaining the stock appearance.

As mentioned for 4K you'll probably have to do it yourself but don't skimp on the machine work, you'll be sorry if you do.

507OLDS

I don't think Mark comes on here,or maybe not that much.His car is a saddle bronze 72 W30 automatic,with tan stripe.I have pitted next to him a few times at the Dick Miller event,and his car is very impressive.Definitely a sleeper.I know he also runs the stock 3/8" fuel line,but he does run a RobbMc mechanical pump,and a pressure regulator.Rally wheels with 275/60/15 drag radials.

mhouston44

Thanks for the response. Im inclined to agree with you because I believe all the old cliché lines like good tools aren’t cheap and cheap tools aren’t good, you get what you pay for, etc. etc. take a look at what ive got in mind that gets me very close and let me know your thoughts.
Forged pistons (Icon or Probe, roughly 10.3:1 SCR)=$490
Rings (Moly)=$100
Rods (new eagle forged)=$375
Rod bearings (clevite)=$40
Competition Cam Kit (including springs, lifters, timing chain, etc.)=$450
Roller rockers (Harland sharp 1.6)=$ 300
800CFM Qjet= $325
Heads Ported= $1200
Intake manifold (Edelbrock performer or torker)= $280
Valves (milodon)=$200
5/16 guide plates=$20
Comp cams pushrods =$117
Gasket set(felpro)=$60
Machine work:
Crank turned=$100
Align mains(if needed)=$180
Bore and honed .030(40/hole)=$320
Pressure test/hot tank/etc=$130
That adds up to a total of $4687 bucks. If I can recondition my current rods (how much can they handle?) I would knock off about 200. If I can get my Qjet modified for less than buying the 325 dollar unit(can a modified 72 oldsmobile qjet handle that much?) that would maybe reduce by another 100 bucks. I have seen several used intake manifolds sell for around 120 reducing cost by $160. Assume I don’t need to align my mains I can reduce machine work by $180. That leaves me sitting at $4047. I have headers and lets assume I will use stock everything else I haven’t named. What is my weakest link and where do you see me having issues? Remember this is a street driven car that just gets hot dogged around town. Maybe 95% street 5% track. how far off on my prices am I?

cutlassefi

That Probe piston will give you close to 11.0:1, not good with iron heads. Go with the Icon IC886 imo.

The $320.00 for boring seems high, my guy does it with a BHJ BorTru plate and hones with a torque plate for less than that. But again don't skimp on the machine work, if it needs it do it. Get the Eagle rods checked before you install them, half the time they're not right.

I'd do the Performer intake, better low end torque than the Torker. And you don't need Milodon valves, SI's or equivelant is fine.

Jmo, but keep us posted an good luck!

firefrost gold

googled mark prince and cam up with a websit he has his hole build on there
from carb to cam to who ported it and so on nice read. I think it was on steet rockets .com Have you heard of a rob thomas He is the guy who ported his heads and recomends him I did e mail to see if he cnc's or does them b hand.

mhouston44

cutlassefi,
what is the highest CR for iron heads you would recommend? and what #'s did you use to calculate that 11.0:1. I definately want to be able to run off of 93 octane!

firefrost,
Thanks for sharing that info on the website for the car. that was a nice read. let me know what response you get on the email.

507olds,
unfortunately I do not have the original W30 intake. Where would you recommend i look to find a repop? or would you suggest the edelbrock performer?

507OLDS

You don't need another carb,and you don't need 800cfm anyway.I have a car here,that has a long-rod 468,ported Edelbrocks,solid roller cam,and a Torker intake,and it is running a 72 350 carb that was tuned for the engine.It is all that it needs.
I run those SI valves in my iron heads,and I haven't had any issues.

cutlassefi

mhouston44

I think after hearing some of what you all have said, for what i am looking for i can get there with porting the Ga heads. I have gotten a few quotes from people ranging from fairly expensive to ridiculously high, IMO. I do however realize that this is my biggest power increase so id like it done right. who all would you recommend using for the port job?

firefrost gold

Who have you talked too ? I would like to see who has a cnc program for iron heads and who is still doing all the work by hand ?

mhouston44

I have talked with Mark Smith from M&J proformance, Dick Miller from Dick Miller Racing, Andy Miller from Oldsmobile Performance Products, and Bill Trovato. If I remember correctly (it was a while ago when i asked) Bill didnt port the cast heads, he only recommended the aluminum. I think Dick Miller did the CNC port for cast. I am in the Memphis TN area and Dick Miller is about 25 min away, but im not quite sure I can afford his work, though I would imagine its worth it.

1971

Hey I am in the same boat, spun #2 rob bearing. Look into Mondello oil restricting kit. I got the crank restrictors, the 555 hcr res lifters, restricted cam bearings and a high volume high psi oil pump. I also have a Engle Cam coming! Call Chris at Engle and he can set you up with the right cam or custom grind one. Wasn't looking to spend all this money but??? And what ever your budget is add a grand cause it will end up there anyway! Let me know what you are doing, we can cry in each others beer over the money.
Tim

Vega

You can get a better deal on stuff if you shop around, check ebay from time to time for pistons/rods and a good deal will pop up eventually, other than that here's what i put together for my build, these are some of the best prices ive found

http://www.atlanticspeed.com/product...idcategory=201
http://atlanticspeed.com/productcart...&idcategory=28
http://www.atlanticspeed.com/product...&idcategory=48
http://atlanticspeed.com/productcart...&idcategory=44
http://www.atlanticspeed.com/product...2&idcategory=0
http://atlanticspeed.com/productcart...&idcategory=37


These are what im getting for my build, cept maybe a voodoo cam/lifter set instead, still on the fence with that. My build should be very similar to yours, maybe not exact though, also going with re-worked Ga heads. All the parts might not match up perfectly between our builds but for the most part it should be just what youre looking for. Idk where that guy who suggested $450 for the Comp cam/lifter kit got his parts from but i would suggest he shop around more next time haha

This is the Lunati cam im looking at http://www.race-mart.com/Lunati-LTI-60805LK.html
Ga heads have the deeper spring seats and can accept springs for higher lift cams than other heads, although im sure CutlassEFI would be able to set you up with a cam thats more custom ground to best suit your application

Also I wouldnt worry a whole lot about the bottom end, all the extra reinforcement is good to have but not absolutly necessary. Im going to be running a rather stock bottom end on mine, but these motors were built to handle loads of power and should be fine, especially if its a street machine that wont be hammered on every time it moves like a drag car (which is when you need all the extra reinforcement) but for a car that will only see WOT maybe 5% of the time, id just as well stick with the stock set-up. Remember, these arent 454s, those motors had 4-bolt mains because they needed it. 455s are built stronger, which is why 2-bolt was all that was made, they were bomb-proof without all the extra help

TripDeuces

If you're interested in a Torker I'll sell mine for $100 plus shipping. I'd stick with the Eagle rods though if you're planning on 600hp. Up to 500hp I think the stock rods would be ok.

mhouston44

Tim,
i feel ya man. at least this happened to me when its about to get cold so most of the cruises and shows are slowing down. but it also happened when im about to get married too. she sure is gonna be dissapointed the honeymoon is sitting under the hood! haha

Vega,
That 450 bucks for the k42-224-4 at summitracing. it basically has all the goodies in one kit package. only reason i am looking at comp cams is because they are here in town and my father in law is buddies with one of the guys over there= DISCOUNTS!! well hopefully anyway. If i can get a good deal on some stuff i may just use all of their valve train set up like you are. I know comp cams is a pretty good company but dont really dedicate too much effort to Olds products so if anyone has some better cam numbers that would match up nicely with what I will have, please let me know. and depending on price im not oppossed to having someone else like cutlessefi grind the cam.

Trip,
Thanks for the offer but its sounding like people are recommending the performer for my application. and if I use the torker i would have to have an adapter to mount the QJET. how much hood clearance do you have with the torker? id be keeping the stock air cleaner.

TripDeuces

The Torker uses a QJet flange. You'd need an adapter if mounting a Holley. I had it in a 70 Cutlass with no hood issues but I wasn't using a stock air filter but rather a drop down model with a Holley carb.

Vega

No problem, i thought if anything i could help out a few people by saving them a few bucks haha, if i already did the shopping around i could at least save some people the hassle

Id be interested to know CutlassEFI's price figures for his cams as for me it would be a bit more intriguing to have a custom ground cam in my car done by an Olds expert

cutlassefi

Any flat tappet is $265.00 shipped in the U.S. with lifters.
Any hyd. roller is $685.00 shipped with lifters. All American made cores and lifters.

Thanks

Vega

Thanks! Thats actually cheaper than i expected for custom ground cams and lifters. That was another question of mine you answered before i even got to ask it was whether those came with lifters or not. Sounds like a good deal

mhouston44

I found a good price on having the cylinder heads worked by a very reputable machine shop. Problem is they are not an Olds specialist. Is it really that big of a deal if an Olds "guru" doesnt do the port work/valve job as long as they are a quality shop? They may in fact know the "tricks" to getting olds heads to flow but if they dont what might they miss?

mhouston44

pulled my engine this weekend and have it sitting on the stand. ive got most of the engine torn down but dont have the oil pan off to see about that stacked bearing yet. I did pull the heads off each and the rust on top of the pistons was alarming. I guess its just a little moisture that got into the engine but it just confirms my thoughts about replacing them. My question in line with that is what will tell me if I need to have the cylinder walls bored over? there is a little rust at the very top of the cylinder wall from the deck to where the top piston ring moved to at TDC. I know i can hone this part but how about the rest of the cylinder wall. it feels somewhat smooth on the cylinders i felt but what is a good indicator if there is one at all?

1971

Hey man, I would assume you are going to bring the block in to get magnafluxed and decked and all of that? they will check your cylinder bore for you. I had to go .40 over ( i was already at .30) to clean up the cylinder. No easy task finding a .40 piston for an olds quickly, but I got lucky in your neck of the woods. If your cylinder still has the honing marks on it you should be good, mine did not. I should have all my stuff back from the machine shop and balancer next week! Let me know if you want all of the oil restrictor specs, I did a good amount, and a good oiling system. Just think in a few months and with a few grand you will be up and running again. If we were doing chevy stuff we would be done already and it would have cost $1200 total and a slurpee would have come with the parts!

1971

Ok the bad news. My crank was dead from the bearring going out. The good news my machine shop traded it out for only a welding charge for a 10/10 crank that had a big ole N on it!! nodular cast, which is an upgrade. Super happy. Then I decided I should have it machined to accept a thrust bearing while it's out so I can upgrade to a 4 speed later. Still good news, except for the fact that my orig crank which was toast was a factory manual crank!!!! ahhh

mhouston44

Yea ill have the machine shop take a look. The block appears to be in good shape. I got the oil pan off and the last two rods are black as opposed to gold like the others. I have a feeling that's where ill have my issue. Hopefully I won't have to replace the crank cause that will be money spent elsewhere. I'm thinking about doing a roller cam instead of flat tappet just cause is like to have one and better to do it now unless it would be a waste at the power levels I'm looking at

cutlassefi

A roller is nice for a lot of reasons, less friciton, more performance, no need for special oils or additives etc.

Let me know when you're ready and your combo is set.

L69

EDELBROCK Heads are in my opinion the best bang for the buck. You can order them through Advance Auto Parts rights now and use there 20% off coupon and get a COMPLETE set for around $1340.00. Thats cheaper than any other parts place including Summit, Jegs and Mondello. They flow better than any W30/D or big block head and weight combined about 40lbs less. Good luck.

mhouston44

Yeah i definately think i want the roller cam.

CutlassEFI, i notice you strongly recommend the KB IC886, i know you are a dealer for erson and accel, but do you also sell these pistons? The way I see it, if i am going to have to spend the money on these parts I may as well give my cash to other olds bretheren as opposed to Jegs or summit. Also, what would be the benefits of going with the erson cam over say a comp cam? I live here in memphis and the future father in law is buddies with someone over there and he highly recommends them (his cars are always chevy, ford, mopar) so i feel like if i go with something different ill be slapping him in the face. you know how it is when an old timer tells you "id use so and so if i were you" then you go with something else and always hear the "shoulda done what i told ya" speech, but if i have good reason to go with something else I wont feel so bad.

Also, does anyone have any good techniques to weld up the center divider on my cylinder heads? I can stick, mig, or tig, but just need to know if i should preheat the weld or just slap it on? allow it to cool slowly or no worries? What type of filler material? any help appreciated

L69, thanks for the tip, but on mine I am going for more of a stock sleeper look. I understand that there are several guys that have stock looking engines that are extremely strong running. What i want is a show car/cruiser that can hold its own around town and not be embarrassed the few times i ever take it to a track. However, the aluminum heads may be an option for me in the distant future if i get tired of the stock resembling combo

cutlassefi

mhouston44

Thanks for the information. I was able to get my rod caps off last night and these were the bearings, for my #8 cylinder, and what was left of the bearings for my #7 cylinder. My crank actually didnt look to bad from what i was able to check. Ill certainly have the machine shop look into it.

Anyone got ideas on the best way to weld up that center divider?

1971

Yeah my bearings looked similar. Just got the block and heads back from the machine shop today. To the balancer and then build it.

mhouston44

Hey guys, just wanted to give an update on whats going on with my build. I just got a call the other day from the machinist. He said the crank was bent about .025 and when he went to put it on the straightener it split! so after calling around trying to find a crank, we just decided since i was going to have to order and crank, new pistons, bearings, etc, that i might as well just go ahead and get a rotating assembly. I went with the eagle 488 stroker kit with the mahle pistons.

I ordered my cam from CutlassEFI and spoke with him about using that cam on a stroker engine. He said it will still perform nicely but not be quite as aggressive as it previously would have been. It should still have some thump. It is a roller cam and specs are lift intake/exhaust .568/.544 Duration @.050 intake/exahust 230/242 and will be degreed at 106.

I had the Ga heads sent up to Mark Smith to be street/strip ported and polished and able to accept the springs for a roller cam. He is CCing the heads for my compression that i need, and i am trying to stay around 10:1 to run off 93 octane. If i have to add a little booster to the fuel then its not a real big deal since its not a daily driver.

I have a ported and center divider cut down edelbrock rpm intake manifold. I wanted to keep the original look of a stock motor but couldnt afford the W30 manifold so i went with the edelbrock.

I also sent my QJET to Mark Smith to have it reworked to run with my car. My concern about that is, am I going to run out of umpfh with that QJET? What size lines do i need to run from the tank to pump, and from pump to carb?

Also, I went with the RobbMC 550hp mechanical pump. Is this gonna be able to pull what i need or do i need to upsize it any? I didnt figure id be over 550 but i honestly dont know what ill be at. anyone have any idea?

gearheads78

Looking forward to the results on this one.

Olds_71_442

^^Me too!

mhouston44

Hey guys, thinking about potentially going with 1.7 roller rockers. Anyone know a good rocker to use? i have seen the scorpion ones, are they worth having?

I already have a set of the harland sharp 1.6 rockers. Since i am going with the bigger motor I was trying to get a little more lift and sound out of my setup, but if it were you guys would you just stay with the harland sharps, or give the 1.7s a go?

Any input is appreciated

Sarum

[QUOTE=cutlassefi;331625]That Probe piston will give you close to 11.0:1, not good with iron heads.

I realize it's a while back now but I am interested in why you say that high compression is no good with cast iron heads.
Why is this?
What is the cutoff?
Thanks for any comments you are able to provide.