csouth

I'm about to reassemble my engine shortly and it was suggested that I balance the rotating assembly. Is this necessary in a street application. I do know the crank was balanced when ground, just not the pistons or flywheel. Also, how can I tell if I need a new harmonic balancer?

jensenracing77

i had my first engine balanced 4 years ago. i will never build another without having it done. even if i am going to build a stocker i will have it balanced. as for the harmonic balancer, if the rubber looks to be good with no cracks i would run it.

dan2286

From what every one says, it is not necessary for a street motor but it will add more life to the engine.

66ninetyeightls

Its always a good idea if you don't mind taking the extra time. I would never pay someone to do it though. I always do my own. Just get a very accurate digital scale. I used a paint mixing scale. Weigh all the pistons and connecting rods. Find the lightest piston and connecting rod. Then slowly grind material off the others to bring them down to the same weight.

captjim

Respectfully, Sir, there is way more to it than that. After doing the components, you figure a bobweight then spin up the crank with flywheel and balancer (external method) or neither (internal method) Weight is then removed or added to balance the crank. Average cost at a machine shop (less Mallory) is $175. Money well spent, IMO. I would not build any engines for a performance application without doing it.

cutlassefi

Let me guess did you balance the crank on a bubble tire balancer?

OMG you couldn't be more wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like Jim said, you have big end weight, you have small end weight then you need to compile a bobweight on the crank to do it right.

It's $175.00 or whatever well spent. Do it and move on.

66ninetyeightls

Man cutlassefi are you EVER not a hostile guy??????

I was speaking of component balancing which MUST be done anyway before performing a Primary or Secondary harmonic balancing. So why pay a shop to do it??? The last balance I paid for I did the component balancing myself and the rest only cost me $125CDN taxes in. So yeah I still say its worth doing yourself.

Take some notes from Captjim. Even though he thought I was completely out to lunch because I didn't clearly explain what I was saying he was still respectful and didn't immediately go into attack mode as you have done on this occasion and to others on more than one occasion.

380 Racer

Mark is a very smart guy. He has been there done that with every aspect of a build. Maybe you should listen to what he has to say.........you will learn something.

66ninetyeightls

I am always more than willing to learn from people who display basic social skills and manners. A wealth of knowledge doesn't give anyone the right to attack or belittle others who presumably know less.

People on forums need to lose the "Internet Toughguy" routine just because they aren't face to face with actual humans.

cutlassefi

Thanks for the support Nick. I appreciate that.

Craig, point taken. But look at it from my standpoint. I did balancing for years, balanced hundreds of rotating assemblies. By weighing the rods, and not doing it by each end, you can actually make things worse. If you take weight off the top of the rod to achieve a certain total when you really should have taken it off the bottom, guess what, you just made it worse. You made no mention of doing it end to end in your post. And now just think, you may have someone on this site thinking your way of doing it is perfectly acceptable, when it's not. Understand my frustration now? Some of us are really here to help, not give bad information. Fact is, doing it your way is not correct. Again think of the next guy reading this.

I'll promise you this, I'll lose the "Internet Toughguy" routine when people like you that have presumably only done something one or two times on one or two applications are more careful about the advice they give. Deal?

gearheads78

Let get this back on track guys. Any motor will run smoother and last longer if balanced. Its should be required for any performance motor

66ninetyeightls

I admit I wasn't clear about what I was actually trying to say and that is totally MY fault.
However all that needs to be done in such cases is to post the correct information to make sure it is clarified for everyone. There is no need to get angry, frustrated or aggressive.

Run to Rund

If some components are different in weight from stock, such as lighter pistons, it becomes very important to blanace the engine, because thee factory balance, with whatever tolerances they had, will be far off. I always get any engine balanced, and if I might use different dampers, flywheels, or pressure plates, I get all of them done at the same time.

I sure wish people would learn the difference between:
loose vs. lose
quiet vs. quite
there, their, they're.

It is especially amusing to see how many people loosen something instead of losing it.

geckonz08

An aside really ,off the topic .However, I could not agree more .I fear we live in naive hope.Prior to reading different sites on the net I imagined the lack of English skills was a failing of New Zealand`s educational policies . It appears worldwide

66ninetyeightls

Your right. There is no way that could have possibly been a type-o. Its nearly impossible for a key to stick causing more than one "O" to be entered.

CAN WE PLEASE get back on topic!!!!! Talk about hijacking csouth's thread...

csouth

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I did change the pistons to forged and the are now .030 using the original damper and flywheel. I think I will end up getting it balanced just to extend the engine life.

Run to Rund

How about you're, your, and yore?

Oh, and to include some on-topic response:
Some aftermarket pistons are intended as direct replacements for stock, with the same ring grooves, compression height, and very close to the same weight.

captjim

Good call, IMO. IIRC, my Speed Pro .030 on my 355 required around 50 g to be removed using stock rods. In the cosmic scheme of things, $200 is cheap insurance.

mugzilla

Yenno, yer rite ...

Texas Jim

Like the small old and time-weathered sign in the old engine builder's machine shop read: "If you don't have the money and time to do it right the first time, where will you get the money and time to do it right the second time."
I noticed that it ended w/ a period, written as a statement, and not w/ a question mark.

Texas Jim

On topic; I'll be taring my 455 down here in the very near future and am wondering if sending(shipping) off the block, heads, and rotating assy. to a good Olds-knowledgable machine shop is cost effective. I did look into the shipping cost f/ heads, NOT CHEAP, in sending them to a good out-of-state Olds machine shop. Has anyone here sent their block/heads/rotating assy. out of state f/ machine work? Even prior to going over-seas, I didn't know of any Olds-specific/knowledgable machine shops in this area, and the old machinist who I had been going to since '83 passed away, someone I could trust in every way w/ no exceptions. Since we've been back, I haven't been in the motor-head click like I used to, as all the older guys have gone in different directions. And does anybody know of any good Olds-knowledgable and proven machine shops in the Central Texas area? I can't and won't bring my engine parts to just any place and take my chances. Did that w/ the setting up of a Ford 9" rear 30 years back, and the pinion angle was off so far that I had to have it done over by someone else. The jerks who initially did it told me to "bring it back," but I just wrote off the money I spent and went to someone who I later researched and was sure of. That was the VERY LAST of my trusting someone I didn't know about, something I did rarely, and got "BIT" anyway. Murphy's Law, sure out to get ya. Thanks in advance.

cutlassefi

I'm sure you'll be able to find someone fairly close to you.

In the even you can't, I use a guy in Jax, Fl. Done 3 Olds for me in the last 2 yrs. IMO opinion he's the best.

380 Racer

I had my lifter bores bushed down to .842. Could not find anyone who had the right fixtures let alone done it to an Oldsmobile around Iowa. I wound up sending the block out to BTR in New York to get them done right. I also had him do a couple other cool mods while it was there.

cutlassefi

BTR is always a good choice but if it's just bore, hone, align hone and deck I'd still recommend my guy. He has my Bor-Tru plate and hones with a torque plate as well.

Texas Jim

380, How far off is New York from you? And what was the cost of shipping the block? And where in New York is BTR? Thanks f/ the replies, fellas'.

380 Racer

It went from north central Iowa to Rochester, NY. It was about 900 miles out there. It cost me right around $500 round trip.

Here is an article (first of three) showing some of Bills machine work on my block.

http://www.dragracingonline.com/tech...ldstech-1.html

I am very happy with his work, but man there has to be somebody down your way that can do it too.

Texas Jim

380, Nice shop pics. Thanks. Sizing f/ the seal and greater lifter choice is slick. Being a Chevy person f/ ever w/ the exception of acouple of Ford engines, I hadn't had to deal w/ any issues like that. Good machine work is one hell of an art, to say the least. And, beautiful looking crank in that set of machine pics. Wow! And nice hole shots your car performs. What size tires are you running on the rear?
I'll probably go to the drags at Ennis (just south of Dallas) and talk to someone running an Olds w/ good times, and ask where they're getting their machine work done. I'm not sure if the track is open now or when it opens. San Antonio is the only other big track near me. There is one small track outside of Temple, in Little River, that I may check out, as I remember there was an older guy who ran Chevies who told me that he had machine work done in Temple, just 30 miles east of me, and if the machinist is really that good, he should beable to perform the standard basics on an Olds block. I'm just not someone who trusts just anyone, especially w/ something that's FINAL, like machine work. I'm sure you understand. I'd rather pay a shipping cost than have someone ruin my block. To me the cost is cheap insurance. So, I'll take your cue, Cutlassefi, and check around. Thanks f/ the replies.

380 Racer

Jim, thank you for the compliments! I have 14x32 slicks on it. I totally understand about good machine work! My engine builder/machinest has become a very good friend over the years. I'm also good friends with his wife running the retail front of the shop. They are basically Mopar people but he puts his heart and soul into every build. He also does alot of research into everything. He may cost more but I have never ran over any of my crankshafts . When I sent my block out to BTR both he and I searched the surrounding states looking for someone to do the lifter bores, but nobody had done an Olds. Tom agreed with me and after we both talked to Bill sent it out to him to make sure it was right. I think I mis spoke earlier, it was $300 round trip. I hope you can find a machinist as good as I did. Good luck

Nick

Texas Jim

Even w/o my reading glasses on, I knew they looked like big tires. They sure do "have the bite" to launch that big Olds. And it looks like it comes out straight and even. Really nice. The $300.00 is a good price f/ the shipping. If it turns out that I can't find a "f/sure" Olds machinist, I'd be willing to pay that $300.00 or so. I have to say that I'd feel better sending parts to a guy who you know rather than taking the word of someone at the track, whether they're running good times w/ an Olds or not. It's just something that I'll have to feel out in the very near future. Thanks f/ all the input, it's very much appreciated.

*I'm now waiting f/ my tilt steering column, should be here real soon.

sethj78

I'm sure u will b able to find a machine shop near dallas but just in case u don't, Boyds machine in norman oklahoma does excellent work!!! Thats the only place I will take my personal stuff. They did a buick 350 for me some years back and that motor went through 4 or 5 cars. My dad has been using them for years, he used to race a 63 temest on a dirt circle track. He swears by these guys. I have some pics of the 455 I just got back from them including some porting on the heads if u want to see.

sethj78

And...will the balance not free up horse power??? That was my understanding.

Texas Jim

I'd love to see the pics if at all possible. F/sure, the balancing will make it all work smoothly and efficiently. Like distributing the clothes evenly in the washer f/ when it's spinning, as opposed to the clothes being all loaded up on one side/in one small area, and the tub spinning in an oval rotation and making the washer body go BOOM BOOM BOOM...Ofcourse that's an exagerated example, but you get the idea.

cutlassefi

I've read all the pros and cons of balancing. But here's a real world situation;

Just had Panos' rotating assembly balanced. It's a Nodular 455 crank, std/std, with stock rods and SRP Flat top Pistons. New balancer and flexplate.

The front of the crank was 67 grams heavy, meaning they had to take weight off the counterweight. The rear was 13 grams light (8 after drilling the front counterweight) meaning they had to either add weight to the counterweight or grind on the journal side. Rods were 12 grams off from each other and end to end. Pistons were real close at 1-2 grams.

O.K., by the show of hands who here would willingly put this assembly unbalanced in their block? And then not bitch when it doesn't run or last like you think it should. Anybody? Not in a million years as far as I'm concerned. Still think it's a waste of money?

Balancing helps bearing longevity, crank twist and flex, and helps it live longer in the upper rpm range especially. Can't hurt in letting it rev a bit quicker too.

My442

Well said.

On the internet, most are bigger, stronger, smarter, and better than you....really!

cutlassefi

I'm just trying to pass along the facts, that's all.

380 Racer

Mark, you do a good job explaining things, very professional in my opinion. So don't stop now.

70 cutlass s

x2 We need more knowledgeable people like Mark. So don't stop.

panos

Thats what i thought when i first talked with him,and decided to build a motor for me,very sharp guy imo.

citcapp

Keep up with the good information Mark, Its much appricated by those of us building Olds engines. Hope to have mine done soon.

cutlassefi

Thanks guys, I'm blushing. Just trying to share what I know are the facts from my own personal experiences.

Again, thanks for the support.