Update 455,turbo?,supercharger?
July 23rd, 2018, 07:36 PM
#1
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Quad cities Illinois
Posts: 714
Update 455,turbo?,supercharger?
I am planning some updates this winter so I’m doing my research now. The 455 runs well besides the low oil pressure when warm. Currently it has a mild cam, ported g heads from J&S, forged pistons, torker intake. I would like more power so my options are torquestorm super charger, mild turbo setup, or roller cam, upgrade heads and 3 inch exhaust. The car must remain streetable, run on pump gas, and i have a budget of 5,000$. I’m looking to run 118-120 mph in the 1/4. The car has 3:73s and a 3000 stall converter. What would you do?
July 23rd, 2018, 09:42 PM
#2
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Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 762
oooooh, sounds like some fun options.... and sitting here at the hotel out of town for work leaves me with lots of time.....
Do you have low oil pressure when warm because of thin oil or high oil temps or excessive bearing clearances? Have you pulled any rod caps or main caps to inspect? Hopefully everything is ok.
How does the car run currently? What is your current best E.T.?
Do you have any flow numbers on the heads?
What size and design of cam do you currently run?
Do you have stock or upgraded rods?
What crank?
What pistons?
What kind of fuel is conveniently available to you? E85? Only 93 octane pump gas?
Pro-Stock engines running the 0W oils tend to have 4-5psi of oil pressure at idle and only 35-50psi at 10,000 rpm, so it is definitely about oil film strength and volume flow vs. pressure (in a perfect world, which is why Pro-stock engines are probably the most perfectly built large engines that last quite a while once built)
If we wouldn't have had to spend so much on our own personal engine just fixing and re-doing things that had to be set right on the basics (and some upgrades and might-as-wells also), we would have looked at a supercharger or turbocharger.
RPM is apparently one of the main causes of block and crank failures on any engine, but especially on the weakly-webbed mains in our engines, so keeping it below 6,000 or even 5,500 will make it live much longer, no matter how much power it puts out.
Turbocharged:
I personally believe that if you can package a single turbocharger or twins up top, that is an awesome way to go. Turbos will have the crazy high torque output and all the horsepower you can stand, depending on the psi and the turbo compressor maps. I also believe turbochargers are much easier on stock rods and components than a supercharger. You could also look at mounting the turbos underneath the car somewhere, but this will have to be done tight to the bottom of the car so it doesn't hang down and drag on things. Up top, you are looking at lots of exhaust fabrication expense, the good quality stainless (321 alloy) is very expensive, and you will have to either convert to EFI (a multiport EFI system is highly recommended for boost because of adjustable fueling for each cylinder for manifold flow variances) or you will be tinkering with a blow-through carburetor for a loooong time. You will have to upgrade the fuel system to accommodate the extra power and fuel pressure required to cover the boost of either system. You will want a custom cam ground to take advantage of the turbochargers. Head bolts or studs and Cometic gaskets recommended.
Supercharged:
A centrifugal supercharger is much easier to package than turbos, unless you are looking at running A/C. It is an Oldsmobile so there are no easy blower drive systems for these out there except for the Torq-storms. They seem like a cool deal, but I don't know what their realistic horsepower potential (their rated max is 700hp) is while not over-speeding the bearings or the wheel assembly, which would require frequent (and most likely costly) rebuilds. It would be great to see a compressor map to see if it matches well to a Big Block Olds. Centrifugal Superchargers take more power to turn and don't make as much torque compared to a nice turbo setup. You could likely get into the supercharger cheaper than the turbo's, depending on your skill set and/or connections to great fabrication shops. The supercharger will load the snout of the crank more and will cause more harmonic stress on the crankshaft (loading twist on the snout) and you will need a much better harmonic damper (ATI). A supercharger loads the rods more than a turbo (because there is no exhaust backpressure increase like on a turbo system). You will want a custom cam ground for a supercharger use and expected/desired power. Same intake/efi suggestions as the turbocharged combo. Head bolts or studs and Cometic gaskets recommended.
Tuning is everything on any boosted combination. E85 fuel is poor-mans boost fuel or even high compression fuel, if you can get it.
Naturally aspirated:
Again, depending on how fast you are now, going faster naturally aspirated can get very expensive per HP gained very quickly on an Olds engine, as you know.
You likely might spend more on a naturally aspirated combination than the boosted combos because Oldsmobiles aren't cheap to make them faster NA
Let's assume you run 110mph in the quarter mile currently.... You would need to pick up 100 hp at least at the wheels to get to 118-120mph. That is an additional 130 hp at the crank required; assuming you will need a 530-550hp engine to get to your goal.
The fuel available to you and the elevation you are at will determine what compression ratio you can run realistically, even with a large cam, calculating the dynamic compression ratio.
To make more NA horsepower will require a larger cam, likely a roller of some type, either hydraulic or mechanical, better connecting rods because of the increased RPM strain on the rotating assembly, possibly a fully counter-balanced billet crank, main girdle system or new caps and rework of your ported heads or a purchase of fully ported aluminum heads of some type, an ATI SFI Damper and SFI Flexplate and a rebalance... adding things up, I think you could quickly get far over the $5,000 budget.
Do you have low oil pressure when warm because of thin oil or high oil temps or excessive bearing clearances? Have you pulled any rod caps or main caps to inspect? Hopefully everything is ok.
How does the car run currently? What is your current best E.T.?
Do you have any flow numbers on the heads?
What size and design of cam do you currently run?
Do you have stock or upgraded rods?
What crank?
What pistons?
What kind of fuel is conveniently available to you? E85? Only 93 octane pump gas?
Pro-Stock engines running the 0W oils tend to have 4-5psi of oil pressure at idle and only 35-50psi at 10,000 rpm, so it is definitely about oil film strength and volume flow vs. pressure (in a perfect world, which is why Pro-stock engines are probably the most perfectly built large engines that last quite a while once built)
If we wouldn't have had to spend so much on our own personal engine just fixing and re-doing things that had to be set right on the basics (and some upgrades and might-as-wells also), we would have looked at a supercharger or turbocharger.
RPM is apparently one of the main causes of block and crank failures on any engine, but especially on the weakly-webbed mains in our engines, so keeping it below 6,000 or even 5,500 will make it live much longer, no matter how much power it puts out.
Turbocharged:
I personally believe that if you can package a single turbocharger or twins up top, that is an awesome way to go. Turbos will have the crazy high torque output and all the horsepower you can stand, depending on the psi and the turbo compressor maps. I also believe turbochargers are much easier on stock rods and components than a supercharger. You could also look at mounting the turbos underneath the car somewhere, but this will have to be done tight to the bottom of the car so it doesn't hang down and drag on things. Up top, you are looking at lots of exhaust fabrication expense, the good quality stainless (321 alloy) is very expensive, and you will have to either convert to EFI (a multiport EFI system is highly recommended for boost because of adjustable fueling for each cylinder for manifold flow variances) or you will be tinkering with a blow-through carburetor for a loooong time. You will have to upgrade the fuel system to accommodate the extra power and fuel pressure required to cover the boost of either system. You will want a custom cam ground to take advantage of the turbochargers. Head bolts or studs and Cometic gaskets recommended.
Supercharged:
A centrifugal supercharger is much easier to package than turbos, unless you are looking at running A/C. It is an Oldsmobile so there are no easy blower drive systems for these out there except for the Torq-storms. They seem like a cool deal, but I don't know what their realistic horsepower potential (their rated max is 700hp) is while not over-speeding the bearings or the wheel assembly, which would require frequent (and most likely costly) rebuilds. It would be great to see a compressor map to see if it matches well to a Big Block Olds. Centrifugal Superchargers take more power to turn and don't make as much torque compared to a nice turbo setup. You could likely get into the supercharger cheaper than the turbo's, depending on your skill set and/or connections to great fabrication shops. The supercharger will load the snout of the crank more and will cause more harmonic stress on the crankshaft (loading twist on the snout) and you will need a much better harmonic damper (ATI). A supercharger loads the rods more than a turbo (because there is no exhaust backpressure increase like on a turbo system). You will want a custom cam ground for a supercharger use and expected/desired power. Same intake/efi suggestions as the turbocharged combo. Head bolts or studs and Cometic gaskets recommended.
Tuning is everything on any boosted combination. E85 fuel is poor-mans boost fuel or even high compression fuel, if you can get it.
Naturally aspirated:
Again, depending on how fast you are now, going faster naturally aspirated can get very expensive per HP gained very quickly on an Olds engine, as you know.
You likely might spend more on a naturally aspirated combination than the boosted combos because Oldsmobiles aren't cheap to make them faster NA
Let's assume you run 110mph in the quarter mile currently.... You would need to pick up 100 hp at least at the wheels to get to 118-120mph. That is an additional 130 hp at the crank required; assuming you will need a 530-550hp engine to get to your goal.
The fuel available to you and the elevation you are at will determine what compression ratio you can run realistically, even with a large cam, calculating the dynamic compression ratio.
To make more NA horsepower will require a larger cam, likely a roller of some type, either hydraulic or mechanical, better connecting rods because of the increased RPM strain on the rotating assembly, possibly a fully counter-balanced billet crank, main girdle system or new caps and rework of your ported heads or a purchase of fully ported aluminum heads of some type, an ATI SFI Damper and SFI Flexplate and a rebalance... adding things up, I think you could quickly get far over the $5,000 budget.
Last edited by Battenrunner; July 23rd, 2018 at 10:07 PM.
July 24th, 2018, 07:24 AM
#3
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,307
Time for a reality check. Any boost application will require you to properly build the bottom end to survive. You'll spend the majority of your $5K there, leaving precious little for your power adder.
Get a set of aluminum heads from Bernard Mondello, a cam from Mark Remmel, and match the intake and exhaust to your planned operating conditions. $5K is a reasonable budget for that. Anything left over goes to a nitrous kit.
Get a set of aluminum heads from Bernard Mondello, a cam from Mark Remmel, and match the intake and exhaust to your planned operating conditions. $5K is a reasonable budget for that. Anything left over goes to a nitrous kit.
July 24th, 2018, 07:47 AM
#4
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Quad cities Illinois
Posts: 714
Great post Battenrunner! Lots of good info as i did not think of the torquestorm loading the crank snout. The car currently runs 12.0 at 108 mph so the car puts the power down fairly efficiently. The engine has about 20,000 miles on it and is 10 years old. I plan on pulling it out and measuring clearances to determine the reason for the oil pressure loss. I am planning on upgrading the fuel system and switching to electric fans but I’m not including that into my budget.
Joe that has been the direction i have been leaning but i would like to explore all my options. I like the idea of the supercharger but i know they are limited in boost (not that i think i would have to push it too far) but I don’t like the idea of the extra weight and loading the crank snout. I will have to look into some na builds. Thanks for the replies.
Joe that has been the direction i have been leaning but i would like to explore all my options. I like the idea of the supercharger but i know they are limited in boost (not that i think i would have to push it too far) but I don’t like the idea of the extra weight and loading the crank snout. I will have to look into some na builds. Thanks for the replies.
July 24th, 2018, 07:56 AM
#5
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,307
Joe that has been the direction i have been leaning but i would like to explore all my options. I like the idea of the supercharger but i know they are limited in boost (not that i think i would have to push it too far) but I don’t like the idea of the extra weight and loading the crank snout. I will have to look into some na builds. Thanks for the replies.
Keep in mind that to properly use a blower or turbo, you'll want to drop the CR. That means new pistons, and probably a matched cam, so you're into building the motor again.
Ask the guys who own Jetfires how 10.25 CR works with a turbo.
It's kind of a waste to buy all that hardware and plumbing and be limited to 5 psi of boost, even WITH water injection.
July 24th, 2018, 08:58 AM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 762
Great post Battenrunner! Lots of good info as i did not think of the torquestorm loading the crank snout. The car currently runs 12.0 at 108 mph so the car puts the power down fairly efficiently. The engine has about 20,000 miles on it and is 10 years old. I plan on pulling it out and measuring clearances to determine the reason for the oil pressure loss. I am planning on upgrading the fuel system and switching to electric fans but I’m not including that into my budget.
Joe that has been the direction i have been leaning but i would like to explore all my options. I like the idea of the supercharger but i know they are limited in boost (not that i think i would have to push it too far) but I don’t like the idea of the extra weight and loading the crank snout. I will have to look into some na builds. Thanks for the replies.
Joe that has been the direction i have been leaning but i would like to explore all my options. I like the idea of the supercharger but i know they are limited in boost (not that i think i would have to push it too far) but I don’t like the idea of the extra weight and loading the crank snout. I will have to look into some na builds. Thanks for the replies.
Good points Joe!
sounds like a fun street/strip car!
Typically, superchargers don’t work great with cast crank snouts because they are too rigid/brittle, but at lower HP and lower rpm’s you could probably get away with it.
You will need 120hp more at the wheels, which is no small feat naturally aspirated, assuming you have ~320 wheel HP now.
What compression are your pistons now?
We are lucky enough to have several E85 stations right near our house, so we will likely be running that, as well as a shot of Nitrous eventually....
Joe, what block mods do you think are required for a 150hp or 200hp shot of nitrous if less than 6,000rpm?
Last edited by Battenrunner; July 24th, 2018 at 09:05 AM.
July 24th, 2018, 07:36 PM
#8
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Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 762
If you bought an E85 carb and ran a good fuel system for it, you not only could push 12:1 compression and nitrous with much more margin of safety, you could have enough compression to run a chunky cam and really make some power differences. Just the increase in compression alone could easily make a 40hp difference with your current combo.
In fact, if you knew what your heads flow, you might be able to affordably just replace the springs on them and jump to a decently large hyd roller cam if you have decent airflow and good quality valves already.
Dont get me wrong, a cool set of aluminum heads would be awesome, but unless they are really ported/flowing good, you may not gain a lot from them vs, your ported iron heads.
upgrading the pistons and rods and mains might be where your money really goes....
I really wanted to push our compression to 12:1, but my Dad is afraid of not having access to E85 where we might road trip the car, so we are going with 10.5:1
In fact, if you knew what your heads flow, you might be able to affordably just replace the springs on them and jump to a decently large hyd roller cam if you have decent airflow and good quality valves already.
Dont get me wrong, a cool set of aluminum heads would be awesome, but unless they are really ported/flowing good, you may not gain a lot from them vs, your ported iron heads.
upgrading the pistons and rods and mains might be where your money really goes....
I really wanted to push our compression to 12:1, but my Dad is afraid of not having access to E85 where we might road trip the car, so we are going with 10.5:1
Last edited by Battenrunner; July 24th, 2018 at 08:13 PM.
July 25th, 2018, 03:05 PM
#9
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Quad cities Illinois
Posts: 714
Do you think the money is better spent on a aftermarket (stroker) crank, lighter rods, pistons, and roller cam than buying aluminum heads, roller cam and keeping the stock crank, rods and heavy speed pro pistons? If i go the new crank, rods, pistons route i can have my heads upgraded to stage 3 porting for about 400 bucks. Either way i will be using a roller (possibly solid) cam.
July 25th, 2018, 03:13 PM
#10
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Fl
Posts: 7,828
Do you think the money is better spent on a aftermarket (stroker) crank, lighter rods, pistons, and roller cam than buying aluminum heads, roller cam and keeping the stock crank, rods and heavy speed pro pistons? If i go the new crank, rods, pistons route i can have my heads upgraded to stage 3 porting for about 400 bucks. Either way i will be using a roller (possibly solid) cam.
July 25th, 2018, 03:48 PM
#12
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Location: Quad cities Illinois
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Well my goal is to beat my buddies cars which are a 70 GS that runs low 12s on motor and high 10s on nitrous, a 68 firebird that runs high 11s on motor and 11.0 on nitrous and a 68 Camaro that runs 11.0 at 138 mph. I know i cant run the mph the Camaro does but he is a 4 speed and all over the track. I figure if i can run 118ish i can cover the GS and firebird on motor. I’m not opposed to nitrous but I’d like to run that mph on motor and only hit the spray occasionally. I will not put a roll bar in the car, i already have a ls swapped trans am on nitrous for that business.
I will bu upgrading to an electric fuel pump and fan to go fuel injected at a later date. I also already have a MSD distributor and 6al box on the car currently. The car must remain streetable and be able to drive the 15 miles to the track.
Mark I inquired about a roller cam from you over a year ago but i spent my engine money on a c-10 so it has taken me awhile to replenish the car fund. I will be looking to you on cam specs, heads, or crank , rods, pistons which ever i decide to do. Thanks
I will bu upgrading to an electric fuel pump and fan to go fuel injected at a later date. I also already have a MSD distributor and 6al box on the car currently. The car must remain streetable and be able to drive the 15 miles to the track.
Mark I inquired about a roller cam from you over a year ago but i spent my engine money on a c-10 so it has taken me awhile to replenish the car fund. I will be looking to you on cam specs, heads, or crank , rods, pistons which ever i decide to do. Thanks
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