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Greetings everyone.....just have a quick question. Upfront, I apologize for beating what should probably be a deceased horse.
I'm looking at purchasing a 2 row Champion aluminum radiator. My question is how "plug and play" is it? Do they really just drop in and bolt up as easy as they would like me to believe??
I have a 71 Cutlass Supreme convertible. Originally a 350 car w/ factory AC (it was my wife's Uncle's car....he had it from 1976 to 2015). Uncle Paul put in a 455 / TH400 but retained the original radiator/cooling system (3 row). Everything works as it should.... coolant flows well through the radiator, hoses are in good nick, 6 blade fan with good HD clutch, high flow thermostat etc etc. However, living here in Charleston, the summers get unusually hot and humid and when it's 90 plus, with the AC on sitting in traffic it runs a little warmer than I'm comfortable with (215-220).....and me being a fat guy that sweats like a fat girl writing her first love letter....cooler is better. Now, when the ambient temperature is cooler.....the car doesn't run hot, so, I'm thinking that it's just a case of capacity ie, the 3 row radiator just isn't up to snuff when summer kicks in to high gear.
That all said, I've considered going with a standard copper 4 row....which would entail replacing/modifying the core support saddles, new top plate etc. etc.......but, if an aluminum 2 row will drop right in...wham bam, thank ya ma'am....for just a little more than just what the new top plate and saddles would be (and me being fundamentally cheap and lazy...) than what's the downside?
If you've read this far, thanks for your time!
Cheers,
Troy
Last edited by troyd; March 9th, 2018 at 11:35 AM.
Not trying to bust your *****, but could you elaborate on the "high flow thermostat"? I would consider a 180 thermostat before making a significant purchase like that. OR, try flushing the radiator. Good chance after all these years, there may be quite a bit of silt built up in the bottom of it preventing it from using all the fins. My neighbor doesn't drive his '77 very often and it gets buildup in the bottom. He removes it and lays it flat all day with oven cleaner in it, hoses it out, and whammy no more cooling problems.
My ***** generally reside in my wife's purse....so, bust away.
High flow thermostat......sold by Mr. Gasket. Says so on the box. Supposed to allow a greater flow than a standard thermostat. If it does or doesn't.....I suppose I don't really know.
The radiator is 2 years old. Copper 3 row....not sure of the brand, a reputable radiator shop put it in. There is no buildup in the radiator......I flush the radiator every spring. The coolant is nice and green. If you pop off the radiator cap, turn on the car and let it warm up, the thermostat opens up and coolant flows through un-corroded tubes quite nicely. Again, my issue is that on hot days, if I sit in traffic, the temp climbs around 220. Once I get moving......it settles back down to 200ish. I drive the car at least once a week and with summer coming, I want to keep it a little cooler. That all said, I'm confident that all the bits and pieces of my cooling system are A. in good nick and B. work as advertised. Being a 455 with AC (that works well and I like to use it)......I'd like to increase my coolant capacity.
The reading that I've done leads me to believe that I could do this by stepping up to a 4 row radiator....which would entail new saddles and top plate (which would cost more than the aluminum radiator) OR an aluminum radiator with 2 1" rows. The aluminum radiator from American Eagle can be had for 189.00 shipped to my door......not chump change but it's not cost prohibitive. All I really was asking is if it dropped in or does it require modifications to the stock setup?
Cheers,
Troy
Last edited by troyd; March 12th, 2018 at 10:11 AM.
Did the 3 row ever cool the car at idle or at speed? Is the A/C condensor clear (fins not clogged or packed with crap) so it does not block air flow to the radiator?
Yes, absolutely.......the 3 row will cool adequately at speed or idle so long as the outside temperature is less than about 85 or so. The only time it's really an issue is if you are stuck in traffic, the system just can't shed the heat. The AC condenser....new as of last year is clean as a whistle....nothing obstructing airflow.
Basically, what I'm looking to do is achieve the heat exchanging capacity of the HD cooling option package that was offered with a 455 w/AC.........and if you believe the marketing, a 2 row aluminum radiator will cool just as well as a 4 row copper with the added benefit of not having to modify the saddles and get a new top plate. If it doesn't....if you have to butcher and hack to get it to fit, I'm just going to get a 4 row copper radiator and put in new saddles and a top plate........Does that make sense?
Cheers,
Troy
Last edited by troyd; March 12th, 2018 at 12:21 PM.
I Understand what your trying to do and according to others ithe 2 row is a drop in and will probably work. So what your saying is the 3 row never cooled correctly from when it was first installed if the temp went over 85*?
I guess we are getting at semantics here......I think that it works as it should but it's just not enough under some, but not all, circumstances. All things being equal, I would guess that the reason that the folks at Oldsmobile offered a HD cooling package (4 row radiator, HD fan clutch) on cars equipped with a 455 w/AC is because under some circumstances a 3 row radiator wouldn't be able to shed the heat efficiently enough. I'd say that I'm in that situation here during the summer....
Well, 85ºF is considered a nice cool spring/fall temperature around these parts. Summer is 110ºF+ for 4-5 months straight, with 20-30 days of 120ºF+ so imagine how your car would fare in this environment. A factory setup would survive quite well, so something is wrong with your setup.
The fact that it cools better when the car is moving says there is an issue with air flow at idle speeds, so check to make sure the fan clutch is good, the fan is positioned in the shroud properly, and the various shroud seals are in place and in good shape.
One thing to consider is that some aftermarket radiators have fewer rows of tubes and fewer cooling fin-per-inch than the factory radiator, so your radiator shop replacement radiator may be sub-par compared to the factory unit. Try counting the number of tubes and use a ruler to get the fin-per-inch count, then compare that to other radiators to see how yours stacks up.
Last edited by Fun71; March 12th, 2018 at 09:10 PM.
Look, I don't mean to be disagreeable.....but, while I've not spent much time in AZ, I've spent a few years in the sandboxes of the Middle East so I'm pretty familiar with desert heat with low humidity as opposed to the heat and humidity here in good ole South Carolina. Being a fat guy from the coast of Maine who detests temps over 72F, I'm a great connoisseur of all things heat related .....but, (in my best Forrest Gump imitation) I'm not a smart man but I do know a few things.....
Again, what I'm saying is that sitting in traffic, my current system....with parts that are in good working order......the temp climbs a little higher than I'm comfortable with. Not boiling over but 220 is too high for my comfort level. If you turn the heat on, the AC off, get the car moving a bit.....the temp drops. Same thing, if I run down the interstate at 75-80 it runs warmer than if I go 50. So, all that tells me that the system is working as it should, but, for whatever reason doesn't shed heat efficiently enough........
So, in my mind, the question is this......if you stipulate that all the bits and pieces (radiator, hoses, thermostat, water pump, coolant) are indeed working, the logical choice would be to increase the capacity of the heat exchanger (radiator). Apparently the engineers at Oldsmobile perhaps arrived at a similar conclusion as they did, in fact, offer a larger capacity radiator (4 row) / HD fan clutch package in cars equipped with a 455 and AC. Again, I'm not a smart man but if it was good enough for the guys that designed the cars....who am I to second guess?
That circles back to......if I can achieve that with an aluminium radiator (189 bucks to my door) as opposed to going with a 4 row which would mean some surgery and a greater expense.....I don't see the downside, providing there is no surgery involved, and that's all I was really asking. If there is surgery involved, I'd just go with the 4 row copper......now, if there is something flawed in my logic here, I'm all ears......but, and I mean this in the nicest possible way (because indeed, I appreciate any advice and I really enjoy, as a lurker, the "vibe" here and don't wish to be persona non grata), I'm not really looking to rehash what may or may not be wrong with my current setup. I've done that ad nauseum for the past couple of years which has led me to replace all the parts (radiator, water pump, fan clutch, hoses, thermostat, expansion tank.....)....just to eliminate the possibilities and start with a functioning stock system (again, I default to if it was good enough for the designers) short of pulling the motor apart clean out water jackets and passages.
Anyway, I've ordered the radiator......it'll be here Thurs, we will see what happens.
Cheers,
Troy
Last edited by troyd; March 13th, 2018 at 08:08 AM.
I didn’t read or may have missed if it has been covered in the thread, but make sure all the rubber flaps and seals around the rad are in place. All the air that enters through the grill needs to go through the rad. I used a cut in half water pipe insulator on top of the rad under the top plate for instance. Good luck and keep us inform of the outcome.
Yup, already had that one covered......I think I've bought more rubber products from Fusicks in the past couple years than I did from Trojan back in the 80's.
I run a Champion 2 row in my 72, and have no issues cooling on even the hottest days, with AC running.
The thing with the Champions is, you have to look down the cap hole at the core and make sure the tubes are not all flattened. I've seen a few come out like that and they don't flow worth a crap. Now that was a couple years ago, but felt it was still worth mentioning.
As for fit, as I recall, I had to doctor the shroud a little, but no big deal.
Fin density and surface area make the 2 row cool as well if not better than a copper 4 core.
I run a Champion 2 row in my 72, and have no issues cooling on even the hottest days, with AC running.
The thing with the Champions is, you have to look down the cap hole at the core and make sure the tubes are not all flattened. I've seen a few come out like that and they don't flow worth a crap. Now that was a couple years ago, but felt it was still worth mentioning.
As for fit, as I recall, I had to doctor the shroud a little, but no big deal.
Fin density and surface area make the 2 row cool as well if not better than a copper 4 core.
.
That may have been the reason for the marginal cooling on my Champion 3 core rad, wish I would have checked. As far as Chinese hit and miss, the USA made Griffin will no doubt out cool it. Here is the big issue, if it doesn't leak, which many do. I don't know if it QC or the big 1.25" cores that cause the issue.
The 'Murican Eagle radiator came out of the box in good condition.....nothing screamed Chinesium garbage. The rows all seemed to be in good order etc etc.
Now, keeping in mind that I have zero mechanical aptitude.....this was easy peasy. Dropped right in, the transmission cooler lines screwed right in, hoses slid on etc etc. This was WAY easier than getting my prom dates bra unhooked.
Took the Olds out for a spin......no runs, no drips, no errors. Stuck at 180 just like a champ. Now, before I go and give this the BDT (Big Dumb Troy) Seal of Awesomeness......gotta wait until I can sit in dead stop traffic in 95 degree and 100% humidity with the windows and top up and the AC blowin' without watching the heat gauge sweating like a blind lesbian in a fish market....
Just a couple of quick pics to show that it did fit
.......I didn't have the radiator seals put back on so don't bust my onions about that.... Out with the old....
...in with the new.....
Cheers,
Troy
Last edited by troyd; March 18th, 2018 at 06:39 AM.
That is their two core with 1" tubes correct? My 2 core has hit 195 but if I had A/C and city traffic, it would be an issue. Now with the seepage, it will need replaced. That fits nice.
Yes, the 'Murican Eagle 2 row has 1" tubes (this is the one that I have)........the Champion radiator has .75 inch tubes, that's why I opted for the 'Murican Eagle. Why there are two options there? Now, I'm guessing that these radiators both come from the same Chinesium factory....so I'm not sure why the two different sizes in tubes.......but, it's trying to figger out the the business strategies of auto parts importers isn't high on my list of things to lose sleep over.
We'll see how she goes this summer.....
Cheers,
Troy
Last edited by troyd; March 18th, 2018 at 07:27 AM.
Yes, the 'Murican Eagle 2 row has 1" tubes (this is the one that I have)........the Champion radiator has .75 inch tubes, that's why I opted for the 'Murican Eagle. Why there are two options there? Now, I'm guessing that these radiators both come from the same Chinesium factory....so I'm not sure why the two different sizes in tubes.......but, it's trying to figger out the the business strategies of auto parts importers isn't high on my list of things to lose sleep over.
We'll see how she goes this summer.....
Cheers,
Troy
I agree it is stupid to offer the .75" tube size for $20 difference. I may go this route but the Griffin is tempting as I plan to have a 9.6 to 1 403 in the car and I know my current rad won't cut it.
March 9th, 2018, 11:00 AM
