455 olds shaking and tapping?
#1
455 olds shaking and tapping?
Hey guys, okay before you go ahead and roll your eyes at me and say that's a rod knock there are other variables to take into factor. So I bought a beautiful 79 firebird from the original owner of 71 years of age. This car had some very absurd modifications that didn't make much sense. It has 2 electic fuel pumps fed into a mechanical pump on the block which ran to a fuel pressure regulator which just could not compensate and was reading over 40psi of fuel (the gauge's limit). So after loading it up and draining the oil it's obviously saturated with gas. So we replaced the fuel pump with a carter mechanical and the carb which was gunked up and only 2 squirters functioned (demon 800) with a holley 770 avenger. The motor makes power, it has NO metal shavings in the oil, it did however have visible sludge pouring out which just amazed me. It looked like it hadn't been changed in ten years. I have some clatter coming from the back right of the motor which i'm thinking may be the lifters but i'm interested to see if anyone has feedback. Otherwise the motor seems to run fine, it just has a bit of a shake and a "clacking" type sound if that makes sense but again NO metal shavings to be found. Timing is back to a safe point right now until I figure this out. I hear olds having oil circulation issues, a clog maybe?
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
#2
Suggest pulling the valve covers and checking for plugged drain back holes on the ends of the heads to start with. Sludge is never a good thing. I thought the screami'n chickens that didn't have the crappy Poncho 301's were all Olds 403's from the factory?
#4
Thanks for the welcome guys.
It was pure black slime that we pulled out.It was probably only slime and sludge rather than sludge because of the amount of gas in it. I'm frantic this is a rod because I lost my 2j supra to a rod issue but it seems to run exactly the same even when I pull the plug wires so I ruled that out for the most part. I was thinking clogged lifters or a worn cam lobe? It has a mean sounding idle and i'm getting small amount of oil on blowby out of the exhaust (have to hold something over it to catch it) but it hasn't started in ten years previously so i'm guessing it's also pushing a lot of crud out of the motor. I'm afraid to try any aggressive treatments life b12chem or seafoam like I would in a newer motor. I plan on opening the valve covers next free day. I'm still learning olds motors so i'm hesistent to adjust the valves. it sounds like a very audible clack but there was no metal anywhere to be found to make me think rod issue.
It was pure black slime that we pulled out.It was probably only slime and sludge rather than sludge because of the amount of gas in it. I'm frantic this is a rod because I lost my 2j supra to a rod issue but it seems to run exactly the same even when I pull the plug wires so I ruled that out for the most part. I was thinking clogged lifters or a worn cam lobe? It has a mean sounding idle and i'm getting small amount of oil on blowby out of the exhaust (have to hold something over it to catch it) but it hasn't started in ten years previously so i'm guessing it's also pushing a lot of crud out of the motor. I'm afraid to try any aggressive treatments life b12chem or seafoam like I would in a newer motor. I plan on opening the valve covers next free day. I'm still learning olds motors so i'm hesistent to adjust the valves. it sounds like a very audible clack but there was no metal anywhere to be found to make me think rod issue.
#5
Pulling the covers may tell a lot from a broken rocker bridge or even a rocker arm
or a possible bent push rod. Can you up load a video? I never could but maybe
you will have better luck. Olds valves are not adjustable FWIW.
or a possible bent push rod. Can you up load a video? I never could but maybe
you will have better luck. Olds valves are not adjustable FWIW.
#6
Bent push rod would be kind of nuts but maybe it would account for the shaking. Yes I can upload a video tomorrow When there's daylight. And for those asking this was a swapped motor by the womans son and was an original 301 car. Her son drove it in high school apparently. This was 20 years ago though.It runs fine though and I would think the shake was a motor mount of there wasn't that noise. I was checking the oil pan with the magnet and couldn't pick anything up and it also had a magnetic drain plug. I really would not look forward to another rebuild at this point.
#8
How bad can a motor really shake from an issue like that? it's rev happy now with the holley but I haven't taken it for an actual drive yet. Are stuck valve and lifter issues common on olds? just seeing a lot of threads about them.
#9
Your making a lot of baseless assumptions. An broken engine mount will not cause it to shake. Olds valves are non adjustable stock. A magnet is not the best way of testing for metal, cut the oil filter open and inspect the pleats in the filter material. Since the engine is making noise, that most likely will be the reason its running poorly. Do some logical troubleshooting chase the noise first.
#10
Your making a lot of baseless assumptions. An broken engine mount will not cause it to shake. Olds valves are non adjustable stock. A magnet is not the best way of testing for metal, cut the oil filter open and inspect the pleats in the filter material. Since the engine is making noise, that most likely will be the reason its running poorly. Do some logical troubleshooting chase the noise first.
#12
Usually an extra fuel pump is for N.O.S. I may have missed it but I don't remember you saying anything about "oil pressure". Did you pull the plugs? X2 on cutting the oil filter open, Summit sell a oil filter opener. It could be a wipe camshaft.
#13
A few things before you click it. I did not realize my mic was covered for a period of time, I started it right where you can hear the noise clearly for about 5 seconds. Sorry about the alternator belt queel we haven't tightened it completely since replacing the fuel pump yesterday (need a pry bar to really get it tight again). The black soot coming out of the exhaust is NOT the same color as the oil in the engine. It did run insanely rich for a period of time but I'm not sure if that's stuff left in the exhaust or fresh. No visible exhaust fumes otherwise.
#15
Is it a 403 or a 455? What're the alphanumeric numbers behind the water pump?
As mentioned use your senses, mainly sight. Read the plugs, look at the oil filter media, look at the rocker movement at idle, observe hot oil pressure with a known good aftermarket gauge,(read no harborjunk). Perform a dry then wet compression check. Hopefully, you saved the old oil filter and you are not doing all of this TBL shooting with the old oil??? Listen to the exhaust, observe its color and odor. Does it smell like burnt oil, it should if you're seeing it at the tailpipes? Raw oil making its way all the way out to the tailpipes isn't good. That's bad oil control (rings, guides, seals). Any of the three could be fouling plugs. That could be the shake and knock your observing as your only running on 6 of 8 cylinders. Could be as simple as valve seals and an ignition tuneup and a timing adj.
And yes as Eric said, does it knock when you power brake? If yes it's rod knock.
By the way, a millimeter of metal in the bottom of the pan = a dead engine. How'd you measure this?
If all the above checks let us know. We'll guide you to the next step(s).
Recap, one step at a time:
1. plug read
2. Filter media read
3. Oil pressure read
4. Wet Dry compression check(keep track of all readings on each cylinder, dry test first).
5. Post the data
As mentioned use your senses, mainly sight. Read the plugs, look at the oil filter media, look at the rocker movement at idle, observe hot oil pressure with a known good aftermarket gauge,(read no harborjunk). Perform a dry then wet compression check. Hopefully, you saved the old oil filter and you are not doing all of this TBL shooting with the old oil??? Listen to the exhaust, observe its color and odor. Does it smell like burnt oil, it should if you're seeing it at the tailpipes? Raw oil making its way all the way out to the tailpipes isn't good. That's bad oil control (rings, guides, seals). Any of the three could be fouling plugs. That could be the shake and knock your observing as your only running on 6 of 8 cylinders. Could be as simple as valve seals and an ignition tuneup and a timing adj.
And yes as Eric said, does it knock when you power brake? If yes it's rod knock.
By the way, a millimeter of metal in the bottom of the pan = a dead engine. How'd you measure this?
If all the above checks let us know. We'll guide you to the next step(s).
Recap, one step at a time:
1. plug read
2. Filter media read
3. Oil pressure read
4. Wet Dry compression check(keep track of all readings on each cylinder, dry test first).
5. Post the data
#17
Is it a 403 or a 455? What're the alphanumeric numbers behind the water pump?
As mentioned use your senses, mainly sight. Read the plugs, look at the oil filter media, look at the rocker movement at idle, observe hot oil pressure with a known good aftermarket gauge,(read no harborjunk). Perform a dry then wet compression check. Hopefully, you saved the old oil filter and you are not doing all of this TBL shooting with the old oil??? Listen to the exhaust, observe its color and odor. Does it smell like burnt oil, it should if you're seeing it at the tailpipes? Raw oil making its way all the way out to the tailpipes isn't good. That's bad oil control (rings, guides, seals). Any of the three could be fouling plugs. That could be the shake and knock your observing as your only running on 6 of 8 cylinders. Could be as simple as valve seals and an ignition tuneup and a timing adj.
And yes as Eric said, does it knock when you power brake? If yes it's rod knock.
By the way, a millimeter of metal in the bottom of the pan = a dead engine. How'd you measure this?
If all the above checks let us know. We'll guide you to the next step(s).
Recap, one step at a time:
1. plug read
2. Filter media read
3. Oil pressure read
4. Wet Dry compression check(keep track of all readings on each cylinder, dry test first).
5. Post the data
As mentioned use your senses, mainly sight. Read the plugs, look at the oil filter media, look at the rocker movement at idle, observe hot oil pressure with a known good aftermarket gauge,(read no harborjunk). Perform a dry then wet compression check. Hopefully, you saved the old oil filter and you are not doing all of this TBL shooting with the old oil??? Listen to the exhaust, observe its color and odor. Does it smell like burnt oil, it should if you're seeing it at the tailpipes? Raw oil making its way all the way out to the tailpipes isn't good. That's bad oil control (rings, guides, seals). Any of the three could be fouling plugs. That could be the shake and knock your observing as your only running on 6 of 8 cylinders. Could be as simple as valve seals and an ignition tuneup and a timing adj.
And yes as Eric said, does it knock when you power brake? If yes it's rod knock.
By the way, a millimeter of metal in the bottom of the pan = a dead engine. How'd you measure this?
If all the above checks let us know. We'll guide you to the next step(s).
Recap, one step at a time:
1. plug read
2. Filter media read
3. Oil pressure read
4. Wet Dry compression check(keep track of all readings on each cylinder, dry test first).
5. Post the data
Okay where to begin....Well the black stuff is more than likely carbon like they stated. It's not what I just put into the oil with a fresh oil change. On that, no I am not running it with the old oil. I've never driven the car too far so I wouldn't know whether it power brakes. The furthest was the test drive when I bought it and it went fine.It however hadn't been started in years it seemed besides just checking that it would apparently and while the chassis is extremely clean I fear the engine was put away with no care at all. The oil was so gas ridden due to that fuel system that i'm thinking it may have fouled the plugs but pulling the plugs connection seems to make very little difference in engine noise. I would think a rod issue would smooth out if the cyl was pulled? Please correct me if i'm wrong there. How fast would a rich engine foul the plugs? and how can I test the compression? i'll grab a kit from amazon.
Edit: Oh and I was told it's a 455. I have a friend who's a mechanic who's been doing this with me and he told me to wait for him to crack the valve covers but I have replacements and gaskets for it. He installed the new holley for me and handled the bulk of things while I did the oil. I can also submit a pic of what the oil looked like if that would help. I filtered out the larger particles already so it's just goop and small bits of metal. I can upload it if anyone is interested. He personally doesn't think it's a rod but isn't sure but this is also his day job so he's giving me a hand when he cans.
Last edited by momentai91; April 27th, 2017 at 03:05 PM. Reason: added info
#18
#19
Sometimes pulling a spark plug will quiet a rod knock. What he meant by power braking is what I described in post 14. Yes, an over abundance of fuel will foul the plugs quickly. At this point I don't think a compression test is necessary, pop the valve covers and check your rockers for tightness and see if they all move the same amount. If you had a lot of crud in the oil you may have some clogged and collapsed lifters. Also by removing the valve covers if you see a lot sludge buildup, be assured the lower end will probably be worse. Cut open and inspect the inside of your oil filter.
#20
The timing is set back to "safe" levels at the moment. we're getting into it again saturday and changing the plugs. Have a compression tester on it's way from amazon just to be safe. I feel like under those valve covers is going to be nothing but sludge and carbon buildup.
Wait wouldn't this just be the burnout test? lol
Last edited by momentai91; April 27th, 2017 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Burnout test?
#21
The chunks from the oil pan may well be from the nylon timing gears. Put a mechanical gauge on it, make sure the oil pressure is good. The sludge is probably stuff all the gas in the oil softened up and broke loose. Plan on changing the filter a few times assuming you get the other issues resolved. Check the plugs, rockers, pushrods, valve springs, etc. Any of those can cause no is and rough idle.
#22
The chunks from the oil pan may well be from the nylon timing gears. Put a mechanical gauge on it, make sure the oil pressure is good. The sludge is probably stuff all the gas in the oil softened up and broke loose. Plan on changing the filter a few times assuming you get the other issues resolved. Check the plugs, rockers, pushrods, valve springs, etc. Any of those can cause no is and rough idle.
#23
If it did not sound like someone was banging on the engine with a hammer with the noise increasing with rpm during your power braking test its not a rod. Chances are its all valve train related. You'll know when you pull the valve covers.
#26
So it was the plugs making it shake so bad. As soon as I checked them they had fouled and it was missing. However the "clacking" has not totally gone away and after pulling the valve covers see that the rocker area had some play on both sides. It runs fine for the most part (still need to advance timing,tune, detent cable and some small stuff) but it's obviously not being driven around yet.It went down the street and back today when we put wheels on it but that's been the most it's been driven. I have a holley avenger 770 on it and i'm hoping that is enough for it. Cam seems like an RV cam, anyone else end up with play under the valve covers but it generally seems to run/rev fine?
#28
I'll pick up some Rislone.
#29
Rotella is just a diesel oil and won't do what your friend suggests. A lot of people run it regularly in their cars, but thats another discussion in itself. You can also run a qt of transmission fluid in your oil it will do the same thing as the Rislone.
With your valve covers off, disconnect the coil wire or unplug the HEI if applicable and hand turn the engine to each cylinder so that the valves are closed. Pulling all the spark plugs makes rotating easier. Move the push rod up and down and see if there is play. There should be no up and down play in any of them. Oldsmobiles have non adjustable rockers so any play leads to tapping noises.
With your valve covers off, disconnect the coil wire or unplug the HEI if applicable and hand turn the engine to each cylinder so that the valves are closed. Pulling all the spark plugs makes rotating easier. Move the push rod up and down and see if there is play. There should be no up and down play in any of them. Oldsmobiles have non adjustable rockers so any play leads to tapping noises.
#31
Rotella is just a diesel oil and won't do what your friend suggests. A lot of people run it regularly in their cars, but thats another discussion in itself. You can also run a qt of transmission fluid in your oil it will do the same thing as the Rislone.
With your valve covers off, disconnect the coil wire or unplug the HEI if applicable and hand turn the engine to each cylinder so that the valves are closed. Pulling all the spark plugs makes rotating easier. Move the push rod up and down and see if there is play. There should be no up and down play in any of them. Oldsmobiles have non adjustable rockers so any play leads to tapping noises.
With your valve covers off, disconnect the coil wire or unplug the HEI if applicable and hand turn the engine to each cylinder so that the valves are closed. Pulling all the spark plugs makes rotating easier. Move the push rod up and down and see if there is play. There should be no up and down play in any of them. Oldsmobiles have non adjustable rockers so any play leads to tapping noises.
Also no we didn't get a new one in yet. After cleaning up some wires for the newer battery terminals some things need hooked back up. The one in it was some junk one. It idles just fine and actually broke traction with little effort while taking it down the street for the wheels. We were looking at lifter/cam/AIO kits just in case I do need to replace anything.
Last edited by momentai91; May 8th, 2017 at 10:53 AM.
#32
I don't want to be a bad person but the most important "tool" one can have is a good mechanical oil pressure gauge. Pipe it into the block where the oil sending unit should be. The factory timing nylon coated sprocket are famous for deteriorating sending chunks of nylon into the oil pan and getting sucked into the oil pump screen. Once plugged little to no oil will be pumped. A sign of low oil pressure is collapsed lifters. As I said in a previous thread, I would not have started the engine until it had a mechanical oil pressure gauge. I still think that.
#34
I'll pick one up. Again this car sat for many years (15 or so) before I started into it. I'm amazed it's capable of running like this at all. There's a broken one in the car with a little oil in the line but it doesn't seem to feed in at all. i'll replace the line and gauge
#35
So the vehicle runs but it's got blow by in the left exhaust pipe and the mechanical oil pressure gauge doesn't seem to be working but I think it's due to a lack of oil pressure. Definitely sounds like the top end is starving. Is there any other port I can try for oil pressure?
#37
Mine is plugged almost directly center below the intake manifold on the flat portion. Is that normal?
Any pics that might help? sorry for playing twenty questions guys. No oil pressure up top is making me panic a little bit. Would explain the lifter issue as well due to starving out.
Any pics that might help? sorry for playing twenty questions guys. No oil pressure up top is making me panic a little bit. Would explain the lifter issue as well due to starving out.
#39
That shelf contains the engine identification number.
Lets stop chasing our tails. That port is part of the internal oiling system circuit for the whole engine. If there is not any oil coming out of that port you have an engine that is dead or close to blowing up. Pull what ever is plumbed into that port. Leave it open and crank the engine for 30 seconds, isolate the ignition system you dont want it to run. Oil should shoot out not dribble out? No oil = Dead oil pump, dead engine.
Lets stop chasing our tails. That port is part of the internal oiling system circuit for the whole engine. If there is not any oil coming out of that port you have an engine that is dead or close to blowing up. Pull what ever is plumbed into that port. Leave it open and crank the engine for 30 seconds, isolate the ignition system you dont want it to run. Oil should shoot out not dribble out? No oil = Dead oil pump, dead engine.